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After ditching Apple, NBC opts for flex pricing and more DRM with Amazon

arstechnica.com — Showing us that it's not all about Hulu, NBC inks a download deal with Amazon just days after the public spat between Apple and NBC. What's Unbox got that Apple doesn't? Flexible pricing and less "flexible" DRM.

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  • trekkie, on 11/10/2007, -8/+60If this continues and isn't resolved before new shows start, NBC is loosing a viewer of all three of it's major networks. NBC, SCIFI, and USA. Total of 12 shows across all three networks that I watch regularly. I'll turn off all the channels on my Satelite so I can't even accidentally watch them.
    • Nudar, on 10/10/2007, -15/+10If they're "loosing" you does that mean sometimes you will be a viewer and sometimes you won't?
    • supermanred, on 10/10/2007, -4/+23I get the neilsen rating ***** all the time, almost every year. They just lost about 50,000 viewers for EVERY show I used to scribble down for NBC/SCIFI/USA.

      Suck on that, NBC.
      • Shorties, on 10/10/2007, -2/+5I always wanted to be a Neilson household, gives you so much power but I dont think you are supposed to say publicly that you are, its part of the terms. How did you get to be a Neilson household?
        • brundlefly76, on 10/10/2007, -1/+7He isnt - he obviously doesnt even know how it works.
          It uses a settop box to record viewing habits, not the shows you 'scribble down' lol!
          • MacEnvy, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4Truth - my family did it once and they gave us this little in-line box for our TV hookup that recorded the channels and times we watched, then they collected it at the end of a couple weeks (I think). This was in the 80s.
          • johnpaul191, on 10/10/2007, -1/+9no, my house did it about 10 years ago and we were just sent little books to log what we watch. they just contacted my mom a month or two ago and they still were going to send her logs. only some houses get the hardware to monitor your show watching.
            i got the impression the paper book houses were generally not as long term as the others. we only were recording our viewing habits for a few weeks iirc. maybe we just stopped sending them in and that's how it ended? i forget.
    • 4ndr3w, on 10/10/2007, -3/+9I watch shows on all those networks. I get all but one, SciFi, on cable. I used watch the shows I like on USA and NBC, and buy Eureka on iTunes. Guess what I'm going to do now? Pirate the shows from all three networks.
      • brundlefly76, on 10/10/2007, -2/+3You know, of course, that unless you are a Neilsen household no one will ever know or care whether you watch or not, but they can notice if you pirate over p2p, and sue you, so be careful.
      • MacEnvy, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2(Offtopic:)
        Eureka's been a much more solid show since they shook it up at the beginning of this season. It has potential.
      • Charlotte_Web, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2You don't get Sci-Fi on cable? Just stream it (live) with TVU:

        http://www.tvunetworks.com/
      • cleverboy, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6I respect Amazon Unbox, but they said earlier on that their hands were tied on what they offered. Here again, we see they still are. Let's be serious. Amazon Unbox videos are DVD-quality, so they're bigger, but they've got more restrictive DRM on them, so they're much more useless. I have an iPhone that if I wanted an Unbox video to play on, I'd need to "crack" the DRM on it, as a separate "process" for each download, then, convert the video to a compatible size. I can't play it on my Mac either (though I have both computers). At the end of the day, its too much hassle for $1.99. Too much! If this were Amazon MacGuire, I'd say, "You lost me at recompress." I tried using Unbox when it came out, and upon badly estimating the space needed on my hard drive, it told me it needed more, and then refused to ever re-download the film I purchased. Because I double-clicked it after seeing it wasn't downloading, I got charged twice... even though it only showed up once in my "Media locker". I'm sorry. No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
    • Shorties, on 10/10/2007, -2/+17Plus it is windows exclusive, and a terrible DRM protection, been cracked so many times. (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=114916) I really don't understand why NBC would go from a solid DRM service that is compatible with both Mac and Windows to a service only available on Windows and easily crackable. And they claimed it wasn't money they wanted from iTunes they wanted better DRM. ***** NBC! You arent screwing over Apple your little attack doesn't do much for apple, they make plenty of money, you are screwing over your customers. I don't know how many times I have said this, this week but, A business move that screws over customers in effort to gain more power is just bad business.
      • MacEnvy, on 10/10/2007, -3/+10They're doing it because they don't want to admit that they as a content provider were wrong, and Apple as a content distributor was right. Ego will be the downfall of the major TV networks in the digital age.
        • Charlotte_Web, on 10/10/2007, -2/+2I think, though, that the Amazon crowd is less internet-savvy than that, so Amazon will turn out to be a good fit for them.

          I have a small retail business, and sell on Amazon and eBay. I notice that I can command 10-20% higher on Amazon than eBay, consistently. I've sold hundreds of products, and have yet to see something sell for more on eBay than it did on Amazon. What that tells me is that the average Amazon buyer is not savvy enough to shop around on the internet for the best deal.
      • johnpaul191, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2well, this also may be fallout from Universal trying to extort money for every iPod sold. i would think that's somehow illegal, but what do i know.
      • archer75, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4DRM sucks no matter who you buy from. Apple is no better. Maybe worse as they get all you suckers to line up to pay for DRM and believe you are getting something better.
        • mossrockss, on 10/10/2007, -2/+2I agree that DRM sucks. However, you simply cannot ignore that Apple's DRM is "better" if only for the fact that it works on both the Mac and Windows. Obviously it's not perfect because Linux users are left in the cold, but 2 platforms are better than one.
        • Myonosken, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1iTunes plus?
    • zdiggler, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6I don't have problem with downloading shows yet. My hacked tivo let me put shows on the go if needed.
    • rarson, on 10/10/2007, -4/+2I don't watch TV unless I'm in a hotel. I actually hate watching TV because I usually get sucked into watching something that either I don't care about, something that I've already seen, or something unimportant. What a total waste of time.

      I don't have TV at home, and aside from the occasional sports game, I don't mind it at all. When I do get the chance to watch it, there's usually nothing worth watching.
      • DangerMouse9, on 10/10/2007, -3/+1My god that was a riveting story. Have you thought about selling it to Lifetime?
        • rarson, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2I just don't understand why so many people worry so much about watching TV.
    • cuculcan, on 10/10/2007, -5/+4I could care less that NBC has pulled their shows from iTunes. If I i like a show, and it's on NBC (say, Heroes or Scrubs) then I will continue to watch it. Those of you who are actually boycotting NBC because of this iTunes debacle, I think, really have your panties all up in a bunch. I can understand if iTunes was your main source of their shows, no question there, but to start throwing crap at em just for going against your beloved Apple is just a wee bit excessive.
      • DangerMouse9, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1I wonder how these people would respond if NBC stood behind Ron Paul.
    • apotropaic, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2LOL apple fanboys are funny...
  • celticcrossfire, on 11/10/2007, -4/+124NBC just secured themselves amongst the most pirated networks. Not compatible with OS X nor Linux. Unbox doesn't have the distribution of iTunes nor the consumer base. I don't think they could have picked a worse partner.

    When will media companies learn: DRM is bad and can be cracked.

    • jetblackstrat, on 10/10/2007, -1/+16I didn't know you could use iTunes on Linux... (Not saying your point is wrong though, I agree with what you mean)
    • TheDragonTony, on 10/10/2007, -6/+5The one really nice thing about Unbox (well if NBC enables it at least) is that you can download it right to your TIVO. However, leaving iTunes was still a really stupid idea, but Unbox isn't all bad.
      • corripio, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1Okay, so why would you want to download a TV show to your TIVO when your TIVO can record that TV show for you automatically. Maybe if you goof up and don't record an episode, but still, the networks are constantly showing reruns (I swear it feels like you get one week with a new episode, followed by 2 weeks or reruns).
        • TheDragonTony, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1I've downloaded old shows to my TIVO. There are also times when the cable goes out, or if two shows are on at the same time (the way my TIVO has to be set up I can only watch what I'm recording) like say Heroes and 24. It would also be good if I started watching a show in the middle of the season and wanted to catch up. I admit though, I don't use the service that much, and the little I do is only because I got a free credit for something.
    • FXPooky, on 10/10/2007, -1/+11Not only that, but NBC is a frickin' TV channel... anyone with a bit of knowledge can record shows to their computer, and as we all know, as soon as one file comes out, it immediately spreads everywhere thanks to the power of P2P (apparently the incredible logic and rationality of this is beyond them, though).

      I would only pay for TV Shows if I had to pay a set fee per month and get access to every show and watch each one as much as I want, when I want, with no DRM. Until then, Pirate Bay. And I'm definitely getting rid of NBC on my actual TV.
    • jellomizer, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4I think it was more of an intimation tactic against apple. If you can't play by our rules we will just switch. Which leads to the question is NBC Online popularity based on there product or is it bases because of their product with Apple Service. Apple tries to make sure the customer and the partner gets a good deal. Problems especially with NBC (IE GE) And if you ever worked with GE you know they are absolutely stupid Penny Wise Pound foolish. GE is so focused on saving money and saving their jobs and less focused in making money they they will do stupid thing like this, they will take the easy way that will get them promoted and leave the trouble to the guy below them. Very little long term planning, just the fact their brand is so well known, is the reason they get the business.
    • brundlefly76, on 10/10/2007, -14/+3I'm glad - iTunes sucks ass.

      I like Amazon unboxed because I watch video on my TV, so I like ordering and watching right there with mmy TiVo remote - they need better content though - ***** the iTunes monopoly.

      • MacParrot, on 10/10/2007, -3/+2What? You watch video on your TV??? What a revolutionary concept!

        Your statement is hard to follow since you're all over the map, but how is iTunes a monopoly? It only works with iPods and iPhones granted, but these are Apple devices and their rules. If you mean by the content within the iTunes store, then you're wrong. NBC and every other content provider is perfectly within their rights to shop the same material elsewhere. Apple and iTunes have very few exclusive deals.
        • brundlefly76, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1They may not have exclusive deals but they have the best content deals overall, which is what I mean - if I buy non-Apple device, I have to shop ten stores to get the same selection - maybe.

          My TV point is that I dont watch TV on my iPod or computer, I watch it on my TV, so to order straight from the Tivo interface (via Amazon unboxed) makes a lot more sense then using iTunes (which I loathe), and the Apple TV is a dumb purchase if you already have an HD DVR.
    • alricsca, on 10/10/2007, -1/+5I actually own a Tivo and I would never spend 5 dollars on a freaking TV show. I remember when the record button was my choice to press, not a privilege. I also remember when I could tape a show and bring it to a friend's house without being treated like a criminal. I will not buy one of these shows just to smite them for using DRM as an excuse for profit mongering. Amoral scoundrels.
  • fuzzmeister, on 11/10/2007, -2/+96So, NBC tries to fight piracy by using a less popular service, charging more, and having more restrictive DRM? Great logic there, guys. Also, just a heads up, all of your shows are transmitted free, in HD, across the entire US, so having DRM for them online is a bit stupid.
    • zman14321, on 10/10/2007, -0/+9yes, again punishing those who actually are paying ridiculous prices,
      • SPECOPS, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Hopefully those who are paying ridiculous prices, for more restrictive DRM, will wise-up and STOP. I doubt it though, most who have the $$ to throw away, have one agenda, to watch the show they want. I suppose NBC is banking on this mass stupidity.
    • rebotfc, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1and one that can be easily cracked
    • wageslaven, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Actually asshat, the shows are still $1.99.
  • theshizzler, on 11/10/2007, -0/+47The media companies will never learn. :(
  • Alegoo92, on 10/10/2007, -2/+6Hey could someone help me out? I buy House episodes from iTunes.. and on the dvd's it says the show's an NBC/Universal show- but on iTunes it's listed under FOX. Will House be pulled along with NBC programming?
    • supermanred, on 10/10/2007, -4/+2Probably eventually Fox and NBC are on board hulu I think.
    • Chicken2nite, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6Production is handled by Universal, Fox has the distributing rights. I would figure those rights would extend beyond simply cable and into the realm of the internet.
    • cuculcan, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3I don't think you have anything to worry about. The shows air on Fox, meaning for all intents and purposes it's treated as a Fox show.
  • jcannonb, on 10/10/2007, -17/+4I will say once again, DRM only protects legit users. If you were an eye patch, or know someone who does, it can be reversed, because what one man does, another man can undo given the proper time and motivation. If you find HD recorded episodes on various locations on the Internet now, they look just fine on an HDTV. That crap NBC spewed the other day about quality being less when not purchased directly from NBC/Apple/whoever was negligible, given the recording hardware available today.
    • Spuy767, on 10/10/2007, -1/+8I was an eye patch, but now I'm a toadstool. . . Is that supposed to be a clever pirate reference?
    • DoorFrame, on 10/10/2007, -1/+5If you were an eye patch?
    • osmaker, on 10/10/2007, -0/+12"DRM only protects legit users"

      BS. DRM only affects legit users.

      Remember Sony rootkits? Remember DVD copy protection (no legal backups)? Remember Google Video ending?
    • Chicken2nite, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2I would contend with the "DRM protects legit users" part more than the "If you were an eye patch" bit. for the choice of wording that is, as in both cases the meaning is clear.
  • Bricks, on 11/10/2007, -4/+25oh hi you downgraded your services
    • supermanred, on 10/10/2007, -2/+12Lol. No kidding. I wont be buying music at Amazon. NBC fire your CEO he's a bonehead.
  • 4ndr3w, on 10/10/2007, -3/+10and they said it *wasn't* about pricing
  • supermanred, on 11/10/2007, -3/+47That's awesome. The funny thing is, they wanted Apple to LOCK DOWN the iPods so they couldnt play DRM free material, now they have to kiss Apples ass to find a way to get Amazon DRM music onto people's iPods, as Apple can just as easily ban those DRM files from iPods altogether, rendering Amazon and their UBER DRM music pretty much useless unless you are a weirdo and own a pink zune.
    • darushin, on 10/10/2007, -4/+20uhm not to point out the obvious, but you realize the only DRM protected music files a IPOD can play are ones that have been encoded with Apple's Fairplay DRM. To my knowledge there hasn't been a single license granted to a third party by apple.
    • Chicken2nite, on 10/10/2007, -4/+6"Unbox only supports portable devices that support the Microsoft PlaysForSure format, thereby excluding devices such as the Apple iPod and Microsoft Zune."
      Meanwhile, Unbox video will play on the Tivo, thus making for an enjoyable viewing experience compared to the 3 inch screen of either the iPod or the Zune. I just saw an ad showing that the Tivo has signed deals with a number of video podcasts to allow you to watch them with ease on you TV, which also impressed me. Plus, it lets you rent movies for 2 bucks.
      http://www.amazon.com/gp/video/tivo
      • superkendall, on 10/10/2007, -1/+7Ironically, the Zune does not support PlaysForSure - at least not for audio, would this also include the Video?
        • cuculcan, on 10/10/2007, -1/+0I don't think there's even PlaysForSure video DRM? I don't think any of the online stores using it even had video downloads.
        • cuculcan, on 10/10/2007, -1/+0I don't think there's even PlaysForSure video DRM? I don't think any of the online stores using it even had video downloads.
        • Chicken2nite, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1That quote at the beginning of my comment is from the wikipedia page on Unbox. According to the PlaysForSure wikipedia page, the DRM works for video as well as audio.
      • DaManDOH, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3I wonder how many TiVo units vs. video iPod units there are out in the market. Also, doesn't TiVo still delete DRM'd material after a duration?

        IMHO, long live the analog hole! I'd hate being forced to learn to watch "encoded streams" like I was tapped into The Matrix.
        • sincewednesday, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5More to the point, how many Tivo users are going to pay to download NBC shows, when the whole point of a Tivo is to record television shows? This is clearly a loss for NBC: the market of iTunes users is greater than the market of Unbox users, and the market of users that would pay Apple to download shows to their iPod is clearly greater than the market of users that would pay Apple to download shows to their Tivo.
        • jkoski, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Plus, with TiVo to Go, you can transfer any recording to your computer and have it automatically converted for.... wait for it.... iPods!
        • Chicken2nite, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1If you buy it on the Unbox, Amazon will allow you to redownload purchased content, even if you had to delete it in order to make space on your hard drive. This is something that Apple refuses to do except as a one time thing if you bitch about it enough (Will Wheaton ran into this problem not that long ago).
          As for paying to download a show on your Tivo, I would figure that once you get hooked on a show you would be recording the new episodes. This would simply allow you to discover shows you may have missed, translating into a larger viewership (albeit in DVR terms, which would be measured differently for advertising purposes).
      • blocguy, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5So, people are expected to pay for something to watch on their DVR, instead of just recording it for free? *sigh*
        • Chicken2nite, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Considering you'd be paying for both a cable subscription as well as a Tivo subscription, you would hardly be recording it for free.
    • jgrossma, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3A few corrections:
      1. Only some Unbox videos (between 3,000 and 4,000 last time I looked) are available for TiVo
      2. Many videos are offered only for sale or only for rent, not both
      3. A few older movies can be rented for $2, most can not. Typical prices seem to be $3.99 to rent movies, $9.99 or $14.99 to buy them. $1.99 for TV shows
      4. Unbox rentals can sit on your TiVo or computer for 30 days but expire 24 hours after you start watching
  • thegreathal, on 10/10/2007, -0/+7Ohhhhhh, you should be ready to get SO pillaged for this. Forgoing cooperation with your community for total domination of content? Get a new business model. The model you've got going right now is one viewer=one recording=downloaded everywhere without you.
  • Rice, on 10/10/2007, -3/+11I wonder if Jobs will say anything about this tomorrow.
    • Bartboy919, on 10/10/2007, -2/+2Jobs: "OMG Guys!, Now I cant promote the office on my new mega coolz iPod"
      • DaManDOH, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Sure he can... just has to be sure everyone knows he owns a copy of the DVDs. ;)
        • zybch, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Actually to do that he'd have to break the DMCA to move the content from the DVD top his iPod.
    • dvddesign, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6No, he'll just showcase more clips of Zoolander and The Italian Job.
  • carnag3aus, on 10/10/2007, -10/+7This is why I am a member of thepiratebay.org, suprnova.org, and various other torrent websites, I strongly recommend you become familiar with the idea and convenience of free, HD, TV show downloads.
    • mikm, on 10/10/2007, -3/+6Not to mention "illegal".
      • jonshipman, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1But you can already watch these shows for free via rabbit ears... Last I checked NBC was regular broadcast material along with Fox, CBS, and ABC.
        • mikm, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Ad-supported, not free. It doesn't make torrenting them any "more" legal. You wouldn't say "ABC once aired X movie. Since I could have watched X movie for free, it is legal to torrent them".
  • h00ligan, on 10/10/2007, -2/+5yah, cuz content is what is driving digital video downloads (legal)

    the few videos that DO sell are a result of the ipod effect.. good luck with that nbc/
  • Piedramente, on 11/10/2007, -4/+23NBC has the right to lose business
  • ArchonSG, on 10/10/2007, -3/+12They won't learn because people aren't voting with their wallets. Stop buying DRM laden crap shoveled at you.
  • totorototoro, on 10/10/2007, -3/+28I'm kinda surprised UnBox is still around.
    • etandrib, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4Well I'm sure they have funding to keep it open for 12 -18 months. After that we'll see how long they stay open.
  • casey24601, on 10/10/2007, -0/+10Considering that the best show this network puts out (Battlestar Galactica) is not coming back again for another five months, who cares? I have no desire to see what NBC crap they are going to put on Unbox.
    While we are on the subject, isn't it stupid that Microsoft's portable media player (Zune) does not do PlayForSure?
  • airwalke, on 10/10/2007, -0/+11Can you say "rebound"?
  • ArchonSG, on 10/10/2007, -6/+4They will never learn simply because people just aren't voting with their wallets. Stop buying DRM laden crap shoveled at you. Stop buying sub standard quality media that cost more.
    • zybch, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2The problem is that if people just stop buying it, the media companies don't understand why.
      They have been brainwashed by the RIAA/MPAA to believe that if their online sales drop (even a bit) itys because more people are pirating their stuff, and they use that as an excuse to add yet another layer of DRM to their already DRM-laden content.
      We need a way to send folks like NBC etc a message that we WANT to pay to watch their content, but till the DRM is removed we won't. At the moment there is no mechanism to do this.
      They need a top 10 chart that lists the most popular titles people would have bought if there was no DRM.
      • MacParrot, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Good relevant comment zybch. Is there a service available that you can download video content LEGALLY without DRM that has a good selection? iTunes, Plays4Sure, and the Zune Marketplace have to add it by the demands of the content providers as do most other stores that I know of.
  • MavRevMatt, on 10/10/2007, -3/+2To the great Bay?
  • LordSkywalker, on 11/10/2007, -4/+341. Install uTorrent
    2. Go to eztvefnet.org
    3. Setup RSS to auto-download your favorite NBC shows.
    4. NBC doesn't profit!
  • erkokite, on 11/10/2007, -3/+42People use iTunes and iPods. They do not use Unbox.
    • Spuy767, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Well, the majority of people. The rest of the players in the industry are the remoras clinging to the great white, hoping to gobble up some scraps.
    • Chicken2nite, on 10/10/2007, -1/+10The majority of people use CABLE/SATELLITE PROVIDERS. They do not rely on iTunes.
      • DaManDOH, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1I wonder if that's still true, Chicken2nite, especially amongst the generation currently coming into its own on the markets.

        As a correlated question, does anyone have verifiable numbers on how much the broadcasters, producers, creators, cast and crew each make under the current ratings-based advertising revenue vs. direct-access microsales?

        I continue to postulate that any highly convenient, highly accessible, and reasonably-priced content will be inherently less interesting to redistribute. Hence why distribution corporations are so desperate for DRM: they want to make money redistributing as little content in as many ways as possible.
      • MacParrot, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2You're correct chicken, but only for on air broadcasts. What do most people use for downloading legal digital versions? iTunes
    • northernmunky, on 10/10/2007, -4/+6Whats Unbox?
  • Z_Man, on 11/10/2007, -1/+19The people at NBC are dumbasses.
  • AtlanticVortex, on 10/10/2007, -1/+25I cannot believe that now not only is NBC dropping iTunes support, but now they crap all over mac users. The new iPod should come out tomorrow and if it is as impressive as I think it will be, then video sales on itunes should really fly. NBC is leaving me with a bad taste in my mouth as an iPod user and mac user. Amazon sales will be nill, so why does NBC not take $2 when the only other choice is getting no money at all?
    • zybch, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2Perhaps they think itys worthwhile to take a hit simply so Apple doesn't become the huge monopoly it is turning into.
      • WiseWeasel, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5If they were really serious about that, they'd license to multiple vendors in standard formats with no DRM.
      • kelly, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1Let's repeat....

        MONOPOLIES ARE ***NOT*** BAD.
        MONOPOLIES ARE ***NOT*** BAD.
        MONOPOLIES ARE ***NOT*** BAD.

        Monopolies that use their position illegally are.
        Worse still, are monopolies that leverage their monopoly position to gain monopoly status in other markets so they can abuse it.

        Essentially, the only bad tech monopoly is Microsoft.
  • aresef, on 10/10/2007, -1/+24Well, back to piracy I go. Thanks a bunch NBC.
  • SqueakyWheel, on 10/10/2007, -15/+4At least Unbox has DVD quality

    Itunes pales in comparison
    • inkswamp, on 10/10/2007, -2/+3Great. The two dozen Unbox users will really enjoy that.
    • eatrains, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4Eighty fewer pixels per horizontal line? Yeah, huge difference.
    • DaManDOH, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3DVD quality? Really? 3-4 GB per video? Holy crap. It's not P2P eating internet bandwidth, it's Amazon's Unbox.
  • nephilimx, on 10/10/2007, -14/+3Funny how Apple claimed NBC wants more money, when Amazon Uncut is the same price
    $1.99 a episode

    Is the real truth Apple was making too much out of the 2dollars? and NBC was the company being ripped-off. I believe so
    • AtlanticVortex, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3I think they are just trying to make Apple look bad, they want more. If the videos were priced like they wanted, everyone would see them for who they are greedy....
      • Chicken2nite, on 10/10/2007, -3/+2I think it was Apple trying to make NBC look bad by saying they wanted 5 dollar an episode. Notice how they have flex pricing now, something that you don't see with iTunes season passes (pay up front at full price :P).
    • ainGide, on 10/10/2007, -2/+3Amazon is probably making almost nothing just to carry NBC's stuff. Don't worry, after a few months the prices will rise and people will be forced to buy bundles of shows with crap that they don't want.
    • Spuy767, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2Right now, NBC's getting half of what they wanted, they're getting restrictive DRM and total control over content. Give it time, when the next contract rolls around, you'll see prices go up.
      • archer75, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Any DRM is restrictive and they already had that on itunes. So itunes let's you use 5 different accounts. Why the hell would you need to use more than one account? Buying anything with DRM is stupid.
    • inkswamp, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6The price thing is a red herring. The real issue is that NBC was losing control over their distribution and blinked. They want people sitting in front of TVs where they can continue charging crazy prices for advertising. They can't translate those insane profits over to downloads. So they want to create a fight with Apple and put their shows on something nobody uses and force people back to regular broadcast TV.
  • reed311, on 10/10/2007, -17/+4NBC was around before iTunes and it will be around after iTunes folds when the major companies introduce their own distribution methods and cut out the middleman.
    • SPECOPS, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2Thank goodness, because I'll still download it, in HD, from anywhere on the net, before I give their own "distribution method", each one different of course per network, each with their own DRM that when the servers are down for maintenance I can't watch it, one dime, especially, if it's price gouging. Besides, if NBC doesn't make it, someone else will, maybe PBS - either way, we consumers WIN.
    • DaManDOH, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3NBC also predates DVRs, VCRs, satellite, land cable, portable video players, and hybrid cars with in-seat DVD players... yet those are all still around. What's your point, reed311? Sure, Apple's iTunes may not remain the biggest game in town forever, but I'm pretty sure the age of microsale distro has fully arrived.
    • chroko, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4Actually, I see NBC as the unnecessary (and quite often retarded) middleman. Production companies should be able to sell their TV shows directly to consumers via iTunes. This might make Apple a "network" in itself - which is probably what NBC is afraid of.

      And is it my imagination, or are reed311, byebye, nephilimx and SqueakyWheel all on NBC's payroll? They just *happened* to show up at the exact same time to valiantly defend the poor, innocent NBC (ha) from this horrific and unjust mauling that Apple has given them.
      • mrFREEZE, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Don't know about the first three, but "SqueakyWheel" is a known digg troll. Please add them all to you block lists for a better digg experience.
  • zdiggler, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4I just saw a show on NBC while channel surfing it was at the end of the show and it said you can download this show on iTunes.
    • zybch, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Depends if it was an NBC made/funded show, or if NBC had bought it from a content provider and was acting as a distributer.
    • etandrib, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1You will be able to continue to download NBC shows and whatnot through December. Apple will not be posting this upcoming seasons passes for NBC shows.
  • SqueakyWheel, on 10/10/2007, -14/+6Itunes has millions of people locked into buying apple music players through Itunes DRM and you guys cry about NBC?
    • HornyGoat, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4You dont need "Apple music players" to enjoy music or video from iTunes.
      • zybch, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1Yes you do, if you don't want to buy an over-priced shiny white iPod or watch/listen while sitting in front of your iTunes infested computer.
        • chroko, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2No, you don't: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=305567

          Apple has started selling DRM-free music and video (they call it "iTunes Plus"). The last album I bought from iTunes was DRM-free standard MP4 AAC. I'm listening to an iTunes Plus track on my 2nd machine right now as I type this. Using RhythmBox. On Linux.

          You still need iTunes to make a purchase (and not everything is available without DRM), but once you've bought and downloaded there's no lock-in at all. It's awesome.

          It's up to the networks to decide what level of DRM is on their tracks - but hopefully the selection of DRM-free music will be expanded in future - I can't wait.
    • strax, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Locked in? It's such a good product that most people don't want to leave! Hence, no complaints.
  • Spuy767, on 10/10/2007, -1/+5Once again, the consumer gets *****. Is this how the free markes is SUPPOSED to work?
    • mikm, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2Yes, it is. Companies have no obligation to "not ***** the consumer". Doing so is bad for business, so they often don't do it. Anyways, nobody is "***** the consumer". Buying the shows is an amenity, not a basic human need. Don't like the new pricing/DRM? Don't pay for the shows.
    • Alfdog, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Yup, consumers get *****... then something better comes out and the free market corrects itself.
  • damonic, on 10/10/2007, -2/+6Mmmmm, Bittorrent.
  • Vektuz, on 11/10/2007, -1/+4Sorry, guess we'll all just bittorrent and newsgroup it. So they went from a fraction of revenue to zero. Good job, NBC. Time for the old dinosaurs to die out.
    • judsond, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1No fraction of revenue about it, selling a show at $1.99 they make more profit than with ads per person. They went from a substantial *extra* revenue to less extra revenue. Not sure why really...
  • slider121, on 11/10/2007, -0/+13Why the hell does NBC need DRM?
    They air on FREE tv. I can watch The Office and Heroes for free in HD from my local NBC Affliate!
    I can understand paying for it, but DRM on free content.
    • Spikeli27, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3thing is they get their money from ads when u are watching on tv, downloading from itunes or even bittorent, doesnt not contain ads and they do not profit.
      • Vician, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1And yet networks are complaining that DVRs are being used so much that they aren't making any money off ads either... Geez, I guess that means they really aren't making any money at all these days.
        • archer75, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1And they are working towards blocking DVR's from skipping commercials. Product placement is also becoming more prominent in TV and Video games too.
      • HitchcockBlonde, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0Still doesn't explain why NBC "needs" DRM!
  • inkswamp, on 10/10/2007, -3/+20Unbox.

    Game over. Apple won.
    • mikm, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1how exactly did Apple win? They just lost a stream of revenue. Jiust because NBC allegdedly made a poor decision doesn't mean Apple won.
    • MacParrot, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1Actually, just about everyone loses here. Apple loses all the popular TV shows that made up almost 30% of their video downloads, NBC loses all the revenue they would have made from iTunes (please don't go on and on about UnBox. NBC won't make squat from that deal), and consumers lose an easy way to legally download favorite TV shows.
  • starlitdays, on 10/10/2007, -1/+0Man. NBC is stupid, I knew there was a reason I don't tune into them anymore... Don't expect me to be crawling on my hands and knees to Unbox, Mr Peacock. Why anyone would pay money for something they can watch for free or record or tivo etc is beyond me. I must be old-school. I like a show, I buy the dvds after the season is over. I'm not gonna mess around with downloading the crap. Meh.
  • rude0197, on 10/10/2007, -2/+2Didn't take long for NBC to find exactly what they wanted. Promoting the Amazon.com name, Unbox PC downloads, and Tivo may not be hard concept for NBC to get "average" consumers to understand. As well it will be an easy way to push NBC DVD sales. NBC is loosing the iPod $1.99 market but it may have made a lucrative swap.
    • HitchcockBlonde, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Why the hell would a Tivo owner purchase content from NBC that they can Tivo for free?
  • samfishercell, on 10/10/2007, -1/+21I tried UnBox and it was HORRIBLE. I tried to nab one episode of Firefly, and in the time it took me to download it, I could have left my house, worked somewhere for a couple hours, and bought the entire season on DVD.

    NBC was doing a great job of catering to fans and was looking really good compared to the horribly fun (and cancel-happy) ABC and FOX. And watch - once their shows start to fail this season, it won't be because people can't catch up via iTunes, the blame finger will be pointed squarely at PIRACY.
  • applepro, on 10/10/2007, -5/+8BOYCOTT AMAZON DRM. BOYCOTT AMAZON MUSIC AND VIDEO DOWNLOADS.

    BOYCOTT NBC DRM!

    * Amazon DRM is not nearly as flexible as Apple's model and waaay more annoying.
    • strax, on 10/10/2007, -4/+2you have to be a customer first to boycott, and i don't think anybody is...
    • johnpaul191, on 10/10/2007, -3/+4i guess by only owning Macs i am effectively boycotting Amazon's service? that was easy!
    • archer75, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1Apple uses DRM too you know. Better yet just boycott all DRM.
  • OskiO, on 10/10/2007, -2/+5Is it just me or is there anyone else out there that could care less if NBC sells to Apple? Good for NBC for making their own choices (although poor in my opinion) in how they want their media distributed. Too many companies and artists cave to Steve. Even though it sounds like it was over pricing that is not the important issue. I would like to see more artists and networks sticking it to Apple for locking their customers content to just iPods and iTunes. If I buy a show/song I should OWN the show/song and thus be free to watch/listen where and when I choose...legally. People shouldn't be railing on NBC, they should be upset with companies selling you a digital copy of something you really don't own.
    • DaManDOH, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1This isn't simply whining about losing access to NBC content, although there's no denying that's part of it. NBC's decision is another example of corporations choosing tighter DRM over wider marketshare. Plus, the majority of geeks whom were paying for those direct-access videos prefer more flexibility with their purchases. You know, those pesky Fair-Use laws.

      Creators "cave" to Jobs because he's embraced and implemented -- as he's done many times before -- a business model that tries to consider all sides of the equation. Does microsale distro mean millions upon millions of dollars per episode? No. But it does mean quicker revenue and more reliable ratings than any TV station/corporation has ever seen. Plus, someone with a DV camera, editing software, and a novel idea can compete with the big names.

      There are still options for advertising, as recent TV shows with their overlay graphics and rampant product placement demonstrates. Perhaps this means U.S. production and high-demand talent needs to embrace a new idea: make entertaining content and you'll earn a quick-n-easy living, but you may not be able to afford that platinum-plated football team after all.
  • VitriolAndAngst, on 10/10/2007, -2/+8I suppose NBC was worried that they'd be like the record companies with Apple -- losing control.

    I thought they were just trying to make ridiculous demands to put the Kibosh in Apple, without saying so. This will hurt Apple for perhaps two months. Then they will get more content and originals, and NBC will be trying to push $5 videos on a service that makes things more complicated. So if they aren't trying to sabotage their own online presance - they are doing a fine impression.

    I predict the shows will lose ratings -- because NBC will look like a bunch of pricks.
    • jgrossma, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1As of the last numbers I saw (About 3 weeks old) iTunes controls about 90% of the legal digital media downloads (video and music) market and over 85% of portable media players sold are iPods. No mater what prices they charge NBC is going to hurt itself far more than it hurts Apple.

      Take the group of people who have purchased NBC programs from iTunes and remove all the following:
      1. People who don't want to learn to use UnBox
      2. People who don't have a Windows XP or Vista PC or network connected TiVo
      3. People who don't trust Amazon or, for whatever reason, don't want to give their payment information to Amazon
      4. People who decide to either do without NBC content or pirate it rather than buying it from UnBox
      5. People who can't get the UnBox player and/or DRM system to work on their computers (a significant portion of people who try it from what I've heard)
      6. People who are buying content to watch on their Video iPod or AppleTV

      Then add the following groups (remembering that UnBox, combined with Napster, Zune Marketplace, etc make up about 10% of the market)
      1. People who want content to watch on their network connected TiVo or other PlaysForSure device
      2. People who already use UnBox but not iTunes

      What size user base do they expect to get? I'd venture a guess that even if they charged less than $1.99 per episode switching to UnBox would cause NBC's digital content sales to plummet..
  • Jadinlee, on 10/10/2007, -2/+7Unbox? What the heck is that?
    • geoman2k, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1no *****. nevet heard of it before this story.
  • northernmunky, on 10/10/2007, -1/+5Same here, whats Unbox?
    .....and before the wrath of 'you're stupid for not knowing what Unbox is'.... thats the point!

    Oh well... and since I run a Mac and unbox is Windoze only.... I'll stick to torrents.
    • tadunne, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Unbox is that piece of ***** that people try to uninstall after they use it because it spreads loads of crap all over your system.
  • jkgm, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Oh, heck yeah. I can't WAIT to hear Jobs making fun of NBC at Apple's "The Beat Goes on" special event tomorrow.
    • archer75, on 10/10/2007, -4/+1Damn NBC and their DRM! Oh wait....
  • archer75, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3DRM is DRM no matter where you go. It sucks on itunes and it sucks on amazon.
  • rude0197, on 10/10/2007, -7/+2Amazon? who's ever hear of that company? Oh yeah, MILLIONS OF PEOPLE! Any who uses a Tivo anyway?

    Bash NBC all you want for pulling out of iTunes, but the names and digital model they selected is not going to be that foreign to end consumers.
    • HitchcockBlonde, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0Please, please, please tell me why anyone with a Tivo would BUY content that they can Tivo for free off network TV?
      • rude0197, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Unbox can be used for movies as well. That's why. You could always download previous episodes as well. Its ease of use, for a dumbed down consumer.
  • mesomorphicman, on 10/10/2007, -2/+2okay, 1 = i just looked at amazon.com and couldn't find any links to Unbox, how the heck is the average person supposed to find it? i had to search for it, iTunes everything is right there on the front page. why would NBC go to a service that forces the user to search to even get to the content service.

    2 = For "The Office" - the shows are still selling for $1.99 per episode, same as iTunes. And the Unbox season pass is $31.99, iTunes The Office is/was $34.99.

    3 = iTunes = the largest group of hand held video users (video iPod & iPhone) and playable on all Systems. Now it's regulated only to Windows & Tivo users, basically telling Linux, Mac, Comcast, etc users they do not matter to NBC.

    Soooooo... basically, NBC is actually losing money for the season pass and limiting their user base. I'm not understanding this, it's obvious NBC ONLY wanted more DRM control since Apple allows "looser" DRM usage... NBC are control freaks. I agree with others, what's the big deal, it's on FREE tv, if someone really wants to rip it for free they can. I don't watch NBC much, only Heroes and I DVR that (not with Tivo), so if I really want I can make my open DRM free copy. NBC is so stupid, they're in 4th place and still have the ego of the Cosby and Seinfeld years, they need to realize the network is scraping the pools bottom.
    • mikm, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Uh, just because they're selling it for less doesn't mean that they're seeing less profit. Apple might have taken a bigger cut than Amazon/Unbox is.
  • 24imac, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1Me spending 150.00 last week for a Dish HD DVR just turned into a great idea. All I have to do is hook up an external Terabyte drive and NBC can bite my crank.
  • no3dalefan, on 10/10/2007, -1/+0Dear NBC, I have all the eps of Heroes and Office. They are on my PC, available to my Imac, and converted to MP4 burnt onto DVD-R's so I can watch them on my PS3, my Xbox 360, and my PSP. I have watched these episodes numerous times, without a SINGLE commercial thanks to Utorrent and at a cost of what, maybe a dozen blank DVDs. Oh yeah, the AAPL stock I bought 3 years ago has made me quite wealthy. Sorry for the rant, well, not really. Arrr.
    • mikm, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Since when does the PSP read DVD-Rs? Since when does a DVD-R fit into a PSP?
  • tadunne, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Let them hang themselves
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