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Apple iPhone vs. Palm Treo 700p

ocia.net — This article takes an in-depth look at the soon-to-be-released iPhone and compares many of its features to a phone that you can purchase today. The findings may surprise you.

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  • AttackMantis, on 10/11/2007, -36/+5iPhonez0r!!!!
    • Ireland, on 10/11/2007, -7/+112I've an idea! Why don't we wait until the iPhone actually comes out, and then compare them?
    • ajskhan, on 10/11/2007, -5/+1mirrors! where are they?
    • masterofNone, on 10/11/2007, -2/+34i'd like that guy to fit a few more ads onto his site.
    • crazybrit, on 10/11/2007, -12/+11I have an idea! Stop replying to the top thread if it doesn't relate to what you're replying to!
    • cleverboy, on 10/11/2007, -4/+9Walter S. Mossberg wrote:
      "Still, the iPhone made my relatively new Treo 700p seem primitive in many respects when I compared them side by side. And the Apple product isn't Palm's only problem."
      http://ptech.allthingsd.com/20070111/blackjack-treo-iphone/
      Walter S. Mossberg wrote:
      "Of these two phones, I prefer the BlackJack. But if you're in the market for a smart phone and can afford $499, you might want to wait until June for the Apple iPhone. The Apple entry is so full of promise that anyone buying a smart phone in 2007 should at least wait for the full reviews and a chance to try it out."

      Just FYI. Mossberg used it for at least 15-20 minutes of tooling around (amongst others). I tend to trust people who're judging something they've actually used firsthand. I'll pass on the Treo, but thanks for reminding me its still out there. My experience with them has been relatively bad, so its likely I'd resign to the Blackberry if iPhone doesn't live up to the hype.
    • astrosmash, on 10/11/2007, -3/+4People have been spending big, big bucks on the Treo for years, yet its OS is completely outdated, doesn't support multi-tasking, and crashes easily, and it's a lousy music and video player. Yet despite these flaws, it's been popular and iconic. If the iPhone can solve the Treo's flaws it will probably be very successful.
    • WikiEasy, on 10/11/2007, -6/+8One question. How the F* are people with long fingernails going to use the iPhone? That alone cuts out a good majority of wemenz.
    • cleverboy, on 10/11/2007, -4/+1WikiEasy "One question. How the F* are people with long fingernails going to use the iPhone? That alone cuts out a good majority of wemenz."

      This is probably one of the most overlooked, yet GOOD questions people have failed to ask. Pretend your current iPod has a touchscreen. If you start to use it, and you hear a "clack", congrats... you've got a problem with the iPhone (from what I understand, the touch sensitivity is not "pressure-sensitivity" like Palms/Treos use). I doubt there'll be much a problem using the flat of your finger even if that's not ideal. The longer your fingernails, the more trouble you'll have with ANY phone.
  • despot666, on 10/11/2007, -29/+6You should be buried as an apple fanboy..
    • knaab, on 10/11/2007, -25/+7I agree, apple fanboys are the worst ever
    • wonderchemist, on 10/11/2007, -16/+3Tero fanboys are worse.
    • tobsterius, on 10/11/2007, -3/+10I didn't know Treo fanboys existed. Most treo users I talk to hates their phones.
    • mdaize, on 10/11/2007, -7/+3I have a treo 650 and I love it!

      the difference between us Treo lovers and you iPhone fans is that you guys go OMG iPHONE FTW... us treos... wow, a new version? new features? wow, thats nice, we should upgrade

      /rolls eyes/
    • SteveMax, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Actually, it's "a new Treo? Why the ***** they don't release a new PDA? Okay, let's see what they made better and what did they screw up this time. Oh, shorter battery time, STILL no HSDPA/WiFi, and still small low-resolution screen; but more RAM and nicer form factor? Okay, I'll pass this one."
  • growlzor, on 10/11/2007, -3/+59Because iPhone is in the title this will probably be hitting the front page in a couple minutes. The whole article is 7 pages so for those of you who are lazy like me heres the conclusion


    Conclusion and Final Thoughts (http://www.ocia.net/articles/iphone700p/page7.shtml)
    So, should you hold out and wait for the iPhone or go with something that has been on the market for a while now and has a solid 3rd party application offering? That question depends on several variables. How much money are you willing to spend on a wireless phone? Will you make use of the majority of iPhone features? Are you locked into a contract with another wireless provider?

    If you decide to pass on the iPhone, you aren't necessarily making a terrible decision. As we showed here today, there are other very capable phones on the market right now at a fraction of the price. While the 700p only comes with 60 MB of usable memory, it does make use of an SD slot that can accept expansion cards to greatly increase memory capacity. Many companies now offer SD cards in 8 GB versions, effectively equaling the memory capacity of the iPhone. The Treo 700p we used for comparison purposes is packed with many more features than we discussed and the doors open even wider when you take into account the thousands of 3rd party applications that are available for download. Some of my favorite 3rd party apps include PDA Net (allows you to use your phone as a wireless, broadband modem for your computer/laptop), PDA Reach (allows you to interact with your phone from your computer screen - you can use the keyboard and mouse instead of the controls on the phone for things like text messaging and e-mailing), LightWav (a ringtone program that allows you to use mp3 files as ringtones and full screen photos for each caller) and Toccer (an instant messaging program).

    There is no doubt that 3rd party applications will be released for the iPhone as well, but it will take some time for these apps to surface and mature. The bottom line; if I didn't already have a smartphone and wasn't locked into a contract with Sprint, I would more than likely have the iPhone on my short list of upcoming purchases. But for now, I am perfectly happy with the Treo 700p and don't feel as though I will be missing out on too terribly much when the iPhone is released to the public next month."
    • bobcrotch, on 10/11/2007, -8/+4I feel the same way, I'm completely satisfied with my t-mobile Dash. Watch movies (if I want) listen to MP3s, play games, wifi, qwerty keyboard... I know people really like the idea of the touch screen but it just seems like a huge pain in the ass. I picked up a smartphone because I hated my old dell Axiom touch screen so much. Who knows though I'm sure Apple has it down a bit better.

      It just seems like the phone is all hype, there isn't really that many innovative features.
    • danielwsmithee, on 10/11/2007, -2/+6The problem really is that the only innovative feature is something you can't use/understand until you get your hands on it. The multi-touch display and interface causes people to either get really excited about it or they just don't see that it is a new feature. Comparing a Dell Axim to the iPhone touch display is like comparing AM mono radio to sterio music from your CD player. Until you here the difference most people were probably saying "So what". As far as specifications of the device are concerned the iPhone elicits the same response of "So what". When you get your hands on the new feature and use it it will either be a big flop or a revolution. Personally I don't see myself purchasing until you can get ~16GB for ~$300, and all the bugs and kinks have been worked out, but there will be plenty of early adopters.
    • bobcrotch, on 10/11/2007, -5/+3Touch screen interfaces for mobile devices haven't came very far in the passed 5 years. I'm interested to see what apple could possibly do to revolutionize a horrible input method for small screen devices such as mobile phones or PDAs.

      Like I said there is a bunch of hype and thats about it.
    • Aninhumer, on 10/11/2007, -2/+1In my opinion, a multi-touch screen in the iPhone could be compared to the Accelerometer in the PS3 controller: A few apps/games might use them very well, and be easier to use. But for most of the time it will be useless.

      (I have not, obviously, seen everything the iPhone does with the screen. I just don't think it's such a revolution)
  • z00pedup, on 10/11/2007, -22/+7Its an valid review - you cant bury a topic based on your opinion and that your a Apply 'fan boy'
    • colincornaby, on 10/11/2007, -6/+10"Its an valid review - you cant bury a topic based on your opinion and that your a Apply 'fan boy'"

      Why would Apple fanboys bury it? Overall, it seems to be pretty upbeat on the iPhone. The big negative thing that the article seems to say is the iPhone isn't a mature or proven platform yet, which given that the iPhone isn't out yet, is not a big shocker.

      Everyone acts like the iPhone will succeed or fail entirely based on it's launch sales numbers. Apple fanboys have been through all this before. The iPod launched with limited supply, at an extremely high price. It took a few versions, but the iPod became very popular. I expect a few versions from now, the iPhone will have a very respectable market share. That won't stop snide remarks from the Microsoft shills the first year or so after the iPhone launch while the iPhone builds marketshare. But the same people said the same things about how successful the iPod would be, and they were dead wrong. Apple will learn from every variation of the iPhone they do and build a better one. Apple certainly isn't releasing a perfect product from the get go, and I don't think anyone was expecting a perfect product.
    • betterth, on 10/11/2007, -9/+19*Preview, really.

      You can't review hardware that isn't available.

      @colincornaby

      Why does everyone compare this to the ipod? This is totally different!

      This isn't revolutionizing a near-competitorless market with a brand new idea that really has never been done before.

      This is entering a massively competitive market where the iphone brings very little to the table in the terms of straight up innovation and improvements to how phones work.
    • colincornaby, on 10/11/2007, -9/+6"This isn't revolutionizing a near-competitorless market with a brand new idea that really has never been done before."

      The iPod wasn't all that revolutionary either. It was the same MP3 player everyone else was shipping, with a nicer UI and a nicer package. The iPhone is a smart phone with a nicer UI in a nicer package.

      "This is entering a massively competitive market where the iphone brings very little to the table in the terms of straight up innovation and improvements to how phones work."

      How many smart phone makers are there really? Palm and Microsoft. And both are doing a sucky job at making smartphones.
    • betterth, on 10/11/2007, -8/+7@Colin

      Right, because everyone else had 30GB harddrives and 15 hour batteries.

      Oh wait, no Apple kind of was the first one to do that.

      And who makes smartphones? I don't know Motorola, Samsung, Blackberry, Palm, HTC, Sony Ericcson, Nokia, HP, Kyocera .. and the list continues. All of these companies make strong smart phone offerings and many beat the iphone in critical functionality, such as exchange e-mail pushing, full third party support and 3G, three things than can make or break an expensive phone.

      But you said "Microsoft". That shows me how much you actually know about this topic -- MS makes a smart phone OS, but has never made a phone.
    • colincornaby, on 10/11/2007, -3/+13"Right, because everyone else had 30GB harddrives and 15 hour batteries.

      Oh wait, no Apple kind of was the first one to do that."

      The iPod was a 5 gig device with a 5 hour battery.

      "And who makes smartphones? I don't know Motorola, Samsung, Blackberry, Palm, HTC, Sony Ericcson, Nokia, HP, Kyocera .. and the list continues. All of these companies make strong smart phone offerings and many beat the iphone in critical functionality, such as exchange e-mail pushing, full third party support and 3G, three things than can make or break an expensive phone.

      But you said "Microsoft". That shows me how much you actually know about this topic -- MS makes a smart phone OS, but has never made a phone."

      Apple had about the same number of competing MP3 players when it entered the MP3 space. It's not like when Apple made the iPod no one else was making MP3 players. There were dozens and dozens of MP3 players on the market, and none of them were simply friendly enough to take on more traditional audio players like the CD player. In the same way, Apple will work on making the smartphone friendlier to compete with the traditional cell phone, something that the current smartphone makers haven't been able to do.
    • Damienk, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9Would you two girls stop bickering.
    • masterofNone, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7get a room.
    • EtherGnat, on 10/11/2007, -2/+3betterth: "Right, because everyone else had 30GB harddrives and 15 hour batteries. Oh wait, no Apple kind of was the first one to do that."

      Actually Compaq designed the first hard drive based player--the 4.86GB PJB-100 in 1999--two years before the original 5GB iPod was released. By 2002 they had a 60GB model, again two years before Apple would offer that capacity.
    • Aggaman, on 10/11/2007, -5/+4"This is entering a massively competitive market where the iphone brings very little to the table in the terms of straight up innovation and improvements to how phones work."

      You must be on crack. I have a Samsung Smartphone (one of the latest, really expensive ones with Windows Mobile) and it might as well be steam powered compared to the iPhone.

      Comparing other phones to the iPhone is as futile as comparing the original IBM PC to the Macintosh. They aren't even in the same league. The multitouch interface puts the iPhone years ahead of any other phone. That's the main selling point along with Apple's expertise at user interface design. But it's a pretty big selling point. The button/keyboard interface along with the crude touchscreens on other phones can reasonably be described as "crap". If the iPhone fixes that (as it seems to) it will be a revolution for that very reason.

      The attempts of Apple haters to belittle the iPhone grow ever more amusing. Why not just admit that Apple hit a home run this time. Everyone I know who's seen the demo would love one, and it's pretty obvious that they are going to sell shiploads of the things.

      I'm tired of this silly game where people compare an Apple product to some piece of crap and engage in feature counting to supposedly prove that the Apple product is no great shakes. Apple's forte is the user experience, and that is hard to quantify. But it matters nonetheless, and Apple's competitors seem to suck at it.
    • morcheeba, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3just joining in the fun here... The PJB was 5.9×1×3.15, or 4x the volume of the current 30GB ipod. It was music capacity or battery life that mattered to buyers, it was size, usability, and style.
    • geniusj, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2@colin
      "The iPod was a 5 gig device with a 5 hour battery."

      10 hour battery. Both advertised, and in reality (at least for a while). I had one, thank you very much.
    • superkendall, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1I still have the my 1g iPod (never bothered to upgrade since it works just fine) and it still gets 9 hours of battery life.
    • EtherGnat, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Yes, the PJB-100 was almost two and a half times the size of the original iPod, and weighed 65% more, but at 20-30GB it also had four to six times the capacity. There were other, more appealing HD based players by the time the iPod came out; the PJB-100 was merely the first of its kind. Apple's success is not due to innovations in hard drive size or battery life. I think you can attribute the iPod's success to four factors:

      1. An interface suited to browsing and managing the volume of songs possible on a hard drive based player;
      2. Form factor and style;
      3. The iTunes Music Service was the first reasonable music download service;
      4. The Apple brand name, and associated marketing.
    • EtherGnat, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1One more thing: While the PJB-100 is large by today's standards, it was about the same size and weight as portable cassette players and significantly smaller than CD players.
  • JeffH, on 10/11/2007, -12/+7Let me guess, the 700p does everything the iPhone can, plus some, and is already out and is already a fraction of the price.

    Gee, wonder how myself and the rest of the world came up with that one. This news is OLD. Everyone knows the iPhone isn't really that special. It amazes me what kind of coverage this thing gets when there's phones are launched every other week that already do everything it claims it can.
    • ronmexico, on 10/11/2007, -5/+4"there's phones are launched every other week that already do everything it claims it can."

      Name one
  • Kazrog, on 10/11/2007, -8/+11What the iPhone needs is the only true killer app of the Palm platform - DopeWars. Then they will have a sale with me. :)
    • ilgaz, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2Would you hack your Palm devices firmware just to run Dopewars? It seems you will have to do it on iPhone, I don't think iTunes store will feature something named Dopewars. :)

      Let people thinking they are helping Apple digg me down, Apple made a huge mistake from beginning. I'd care less about 3G, what I do is going to sourceforge.net, typing "symbian S80" or "Symbian" and have fun with hundreds of opensource software. It doesn't mean I love freeware,some applications are meant to be opensource for trust/security. e.g. SSH. If a platform invites firmware hacking, trojans flood it. If it has GSM capability: You welcome actual money costing malware/hijackware.

    • superkendall, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Since it has a real browser I can run any web based software I like. I think we'll see an upswing in lightweight sites that do things todays popular Palm apps do for the iPhone.
  • Liam5, on 10/11/2007, -5/+12It's not really the Features that make Iphone great, it's the simple interface. I think the Iphone won't be the best phone for us "Techies" but those who just don't have the time to fool around with their phone... and need things to work... and be simple to use at the same time.
    • betterth, on 10/11/2007, -11/+5Because a finger based touch system will be much more simple than a few buttons. We lose tactile sensation, requiring the user to look at the screen at all points of operation, and we're switching to a foreign OS, meaning users will have to relearn how to do just about everything on their phones with the new touch ability and the "new approach" to phones.

      Sounds simple and for the casual user to me.
    • fuzzmeister, on 10/11/2007, -3/+8@betterth
      "a few buttons"
      The 700p has 46 buttons on it's face. The iPhone has 1.
    • mrmarkham, on 10/11/2007, -3/+0I'm not sure I'm the best judge as I'm a) a techie and b) an Apple fanboy. The inability to run SSH or have 3G speeds are pointless, as what's really valuable is that it looks like the iPhone will be a "true" extension of my laptop (PowerBook G4 that will be replaced with the next refresh of the MacBook Pro). That's where the iPhone, at least for Mac users, is an absolute no-brainer.

      I want all of my AddressBook data on my phone (my Nokia 6682 running v8.0 of Symbian with the S60 user interface comes close, but the missing memo field leaves me hanging), I want all of my Calendars/todos available just like on my laptop (no can do on any phone other than iPhone), I want my bookmarks sync'd with a quality browser (yes, I have Opera Mini), I want an iPod built in (sure it isn't that hard to carry another one, but I forget to sync or forget to charge it, etc.) and I want a decent camera (would prefer zoom and 3 Mega-pixels, but 2 MP will do for now).

      Now, do I realize there is better hardware with a better list of features out there? Sure I do. However, none of that stuff works seamlessly with my laptop (or any other laptop for that matter) and none of them keep getting quality software updates that I get to use (I haven't used Treo's in a while, so that might have changed). I want good technology that just works without wasting time forcing it to.

      I'll be in line on June 19th with $600 in hand, for sure.
    • Aggaman, on 10/11/2007, -3/+4"Because a finger based touch system will be much more simple than a few buttons. We lose tactile sensation, requiring the user to look at the screen at all points of operation, and we're switching to a foreign OS, meaning users will have to relearn how to do just about everything on their phones with the new touch ability and the "new approach" to phones."

      haha funny, but you get no cookie

      Compare:

      "Because a mouse based system will be much more simple than a few buttons. We lose speed of typing, and require the user to look at the screen at all points of operation, and we're switching to a foreign OS, meaning users will have to relearn how to do just about everything on their phones with the new mouse ability and the "new approach" to computers."

      Yeah, it took any user less than a minute to work out how to use the Macintosh, and probably less for the iPod. Anyone who watched the demo already knows how to use the iPhone, so your argument is pretty weak.
    • staed, on 10/11/2007, -2/+1And remember that 95% of people look at their keyboards/keypads/whatever while typing anyway.
    • brufleth, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2@staed
      No actually a much larger percentage of us learned to type a very long time ago and do not even know what our keyboards look like.
    • longbow486, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2@mrmarkham
      "I'll be in line on June 19th with $600 in hand, for sure."

      i'll take my 600$ and buy a round trip to hawaii for two weeks.
    • staed, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0@brufleth

      Yes of course if you're talking about diggers and other tech savvy persons, but I was talking about people in general.
  • zweben, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5Partially working mirror:

    http://www.ocia.net.nyud.net:8080/articles/iphone700p/page1.shtml
  • rwallen, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5Palm and windows mobile have been on phones for years now, and because of that, have a lot of the major kinks worked out. I'm as excited as the next person to see the iPhone but my only worry is if I get one early on, will there be some horrible bug that cripples my phone. I'm sure this won't be the case but you never really know, not until it's been out for a little while anyway.
    • r3zonance, on 10/11/2007, -6/+12"Palm and windows mobile have been on phones for years now, and because of that, have a lot of the major kinks worked out."

      Really, cos MS seem to be adding a lot more features into each release of Windows Mobile, and also add more kinks to go with it. My phone has on multiple occasions crashed (without me realising it). Everything about the device says it is working fine, I can go into my applications and use them and the UI updates. The only time I realise is when I try and make use of either the phone or Wi-Fi functionality and it does nothing.

      I reboot my phone (which really pisses me off) and I have 10 text messages and 8 missed calls instantly, that were sent ages ago. Also the phone takes about 2-3 minutes to boot up, which is utterly crap. The user inteface sucks and is quite clunky, and all Windows PDA devices have this ludicrous spec whereby the RAM is only saved as long as there is power in the device (and the battery lasts maybe 72 hours on standby).

      The only good thing is developing software for it is reasonably easy. I say reasonably because the Compact .Net Framework is the same as the Desktop .Net framework, but with most of the useful stuff removed.
    • imacashew, on 10/11/2007, -4/+7@r3zonance
      You really shouldn't try to blame the OS just cause you have crappy hardware. You amaze me more than people who buy eMachines and then say that Windows is slow. I work with an office full of people with different generations of windows mobile and none of us have ever had a problem like you're describing...very few of us have had any to speak of.

      "all Windows PDA devices have this ludicrous spec whereby the RAM is only saved as long as there is power in the device" -- are you working with some 5 year old iPaq or something? the HTC 3135 saves everything to flash, and I'm pretty sure all the similar devices for the last 3 years have done the same.

      broad generalizations are pretty common on the internet today, but digg is the worst. You fanboys dugg him up for his crappy rant just cause you think it makes MS look bad.
    • cleverboy, on 10/11/2007, -3/+1@imacashew
      Hey, I was hoping you'd say something useful and I'd digg you up to. You were doing good there until the end, where you stopped being specific about what your experience has been. He expressed his, you express yours. That's how it works. Don't spend too much time looking at his paper and damning the world for how things are. I've been hearing tales of crashing on Treos, but not much about Windows Mobile either way.
  • wooties, on 10/11/2007, -10/+2iHate that stupid little 'i' in front of product names.. Seriously the lowercase 'i' has to be like, reason # 783 for Jihad or something like that.
  • akarpo, on 10/11/2007, -7/+2If the iPhone supports flash and javascript, (YouTube/Gmail) and renders pages in the same way in which I see them on a computer; yes, it is the perfect phone.
    • wooties, on 10/11/2007, -4/+10my 8525 does that. .. and so do most other ppc phones. Oh, and two letters: 3G.
    • Luigi239, on 10/11/2007, -3/+113G actually consists of a number _and_ a letter.
    • wooties, on 10/11/2007, -6/+5heh, yeah. .. I guess I should have been more specific for the grammar nazis. Hell knows everything on the internets has to be perfect and true.

      Two Alpha numerals for you then: 3G
    • imacashew, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2actually wooties, your ppc does not do that. I'd love to say it does, cause I think the iPhone is a waste other than this feature. Windows Mobile has never had a fully functional web browser built into it. It just renders it down pretty well on most sites. It's an emulation, not the real thing.
    • superkendall, on 10/11/2007, -1/+13G is not needed when you hvae the combination of WiFi (which offers much more bandwidth than 3G) and Edge (which offers way wider coverage than 3G).

      I'd rather have a slower web connection than none at all. And I'd rather use a speedy network when I can.
  • stuartjmoore, on 10/11/2007, -7/+7its about the interface...

    there were plenty of MP3 players before 2001, but the iPod made them usable.
    • EtherGnat, on 10/11/2007, -3/+9An awful lot of people are laying the success of the iPhone on the doorstep of the iPod. It could just as likely be the next Newton or Pippin. Not every Apple product is a huge commercial success.
    • ilgaz, on 10/11/2007, -3/+3There are plenty, 100M+ selling smart devices/phones in market which is in business for ages. They are widely used in corparate World. Posting spam like blogs all over to fanboy sites doesn't guarantee success, at end, the receipt says $600 real World money which will be LOT higher overseas. A $300 Symbian phone does 3G and whatever you see at sites like handango.com/getjar.com along with movie playing etc. Those $30-$40 level commercial software on some operating systems such as new generation Symbian or WinCE is way ahead of iTunes in terms of functionality.

      They even broke the idea of GSM spec by locking it to single provider. Wonder why GSM phones have smart cards since beginning? Free market. That is how even tiniest European country has 3G now.

      You can't even change battery. Period.

    • darkyoshi, on 10/11/2007, -3/+2"Those $30-$40 level commercial software on some operating systems such as new generation Symbian or WinCE is way ahead of iTunes in terms of functionality."

      So you're saying:

      1. The iPhone's OS is iTunes itself, and iTunes only?

      2. The value of OS X's core is less than $30?

      3. The fact that other companies charge money for their phone software makes it better?

      Uhhhh... Yeah....

      And it's possible to change the battery on every single iPod model. Period.
    • longbow486, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0ok, so on an iPos, what are the steps for getting the battery out? get special 40$ tool that wont scratch iPos, break a few clips when taking it off for the first time, get battery out, replace with new one, put back cover on again with breaking a few more tabs, and power back on.

      my Creative Zen Vision all i have to do is push a button down and slide the battery off, replace with new one and done.

      Apple can suck my left nut
    • EtherGnat, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Swappable batteries are huge for some of us. My phone hasn't sat on a charger for months. I spend five seconds every morning at home swapping my phone's battery with the one on the charger ensuring I always start off the day with a full charge. If I forget or otherwise am running low on battery I've got another charged battery at work waiting for me. Sometimes when I'm traveling I'll take all three batteries with me to avoid having to recharge. I can use a standard battery, extended life, or 3rd party REALLY extended life (over twice the power) depending on my needs.

      I can't imagine having a phone anymore without multiple batteries.
  • stopsucking, on 10/11/2007, -1/+15How can you review that which you cannot touch/see/play with? It's the Treo vs a photograph of an iPhone.
    • ericdano, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4Seriously. Until you see and have a chance to USE the final product, you really can't review it.

      But, you know, it is the internet, and everyone is an EXPERT at everything...
  • Antialias, on 10/11/2007, -9/+5The iPhone isn't about features. It is about ease of use and functionality. There are many phones today and even years old that do most of what the iPhone can do.

    Think about it. Do you buy a Mac because it can do things a PC can't? No. You buy it because it works. That is the same principal they are going for with iPhone. Personally I think the price will be a huge hurdle for them, but it looks like a nice phone.
    • nakmario, on 10/11/2007, -10/+7no, you buy an apple because you don't mind paying 2x as much as a PC for the same capabilities because you are either too lazy or stupid to make a PC work.

      basically the pretty packaging is why you buy an apple anything, nowadays.
    • tupperbacharach, on 10/11/2007, -7/+2***The iPhone isn't about features. It is about ease of use and functionality.***

      The Jitterbug (and many other cell phones that have been around for years) is surely easier to use than the IPhone: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,2064373,00.asp

      In regards to "funtionality," the Jitterbug functions very nicely.


      ***Think about it. Do you buy a Mac because it can do things a PC can't? No. You buy it because it works.***

      Perhaps that is the reason that some buy Macs. Too bad that Macs frequently don't work: http://www.macfixitforums.com/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=Forum11

      Certainly, the Jitterbug (along with most cell phones that have preceded the IPhone) just works.
    • avalys, on 10/11/2007, -3/+3@nakmario
      The price difference is a thing of the past - Apple does not make cheap computers, so you can always find a Dell that costs less than the cheapest Mac - but if you actually price out a Dell with equivalent hardware specs, Apples are not any more expensive.

      As for being too lazy or stupid, something like 50% of the computers here in the MIT Computer Science department are Macs. It's not because we're too stupid to run Windows. As for lazy, yeah, you're right - we have better things to do than "make a PC work". Our Macs don't require any effort to make them work.
    • tupperbacharach, on 10/11/2007, -3/+2@ avalys
      ***Our Macs don't require any effort to make them work.***

      Of course. On sites such as www.macfixitforums.com, the zillions of pathetic problems reported are simply non-existent.
  • NordicSkiing, on 10/11/2007, -3/+5But its not the Apple Treo 700! Don't you see?
  • superkendall, on 10/11/2007, -6/+13The author speaks as one wo has owned the 700p for a while.

    Let me speak as someone who has explicitly not owned the 700p ever since it came out - a former Palm owner who wanted to love it but just can't. To me, the iPhone is exactly what Palm should have been offering by now in terms of interface polish and usability. The simple fact is Palm started of briliantly, then lost the way - and the schsm in supporting the 700p (Palm) vs. W (Windows Mobile) model isn't helping the matter of focus.

    So like so many others, come June I will buy an iPhone and sigh for the Palm that might have been.
  • OMGWTFROFLMAOx2, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4isn't the 750 out already? why are they comparing the iphone to the 700?
    • chimaera2005, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3Better question (already mentioned at least once before in these comments): Why are they comparing an unreleased phone to anything?
  • zimsters, on 10/11/2007, -2/+6they should compare the iphone to a higher spec phone such as the HTCs, maybe the htc tytn. the treo is quite old in terms of technology.
  • monkeyrun, on 10/11/2007, -2/+1It's not about the features, when will you people learn.
    • kidjay, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2for the people who need sync that works with a mac, quality control over applications, and for their ***** to just work...it is about the features.

      i had a 700p, i know how much blazer sucks, i know how hard it is to find a messaging app that works properly, i know how poorly 98% of the apps for palm perform, i know how bad the camera sucks.

      that said...i havent used the iphone, and neither has the "reviewer". horrible spam of a post.
    • betterth, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5It's not about features.

      Right, because RIM didn't turn into a massive success for the "feature" of doing exchange pushing right.

      But you are right, it's not all about functionality for the lion-share of the market.

      It's about price. And at 600$, only people who care about features are going to buy that phone.
    • superkendall, on 10/11/2007, -2/+1betterth:

      You are wrong, there are plenty of people willing to pay $500 and $600 for the iPhone - the only reason you have not seen it before is because phones that have been simple to use have not been sold at those prices before, only phones with many features that worked spottily. There is a whole other set of people not happy with those phones and willing to pay for quality and interface design.

      We know because we have seen it once before, with the iPod, which people also said was too expensive and would not be bought when it offered fewer features than the iRivers of the world.
    • betterth, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1@superkendall

      God you're so delusional it's disgusting. Please, regurgitate the Apple kool-aid, gain some presence of mind and actually think about economics before you tout the similarities of a $300 music player and a $600 cell phone.

      Everyone said the iPod was too expensive, and yes, they were wrong. Kids got their parents to pay $300 for an ipod. Kids could save up $300 for an ipod. It wasn't difficult to capture the music-crowd (Teenagers and early twenties are the majority of those interested in expensive mp3 players) to either save up $300 or the most likely path, have someone buy it for them.

      Those kids aren't going to be able to convince their parents to buy a $600 cell phone plus a data plan for internet and a two year contract. You'll easily pay over a grand for the iPhone once your contract is up.

      The iPod did something no one else did, it made the first truly good mp3 player.

      But the iPhone won't be the first truly good cell phone. Or the second. Or the tenth. This industry has been pumping out AAA cellphones for a decade. There are plenty of smartphones that are solid and built around years and years of testing, bug fixing and are incredibly stable. They have all the features the iPhone lacks, plus amazingly large third party support.

      The iPhone isn't revolutionizing the phone, it's taking a blind shot into a very, very competitive and very full market. Will it sell okay? People like you prove that it will at least sell some units. Will it become a runaway success like the ipod, the new icon of a generation and every kid will ask for one for Christmas? It's very, very unlikely that Apple can push a $600 device and expect it to sell well anywhere beyond the 20-30 tech crowd.

      Look at the PS3, and they even had the runaway success of the PS2 as well.
  • jayvdc, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8Oh look another iPhone topic haha... to save time someone needs to submit a story entitled "Ron Paul 2008 uses iPhone"
    • DeFex, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9How about "BREAKING NEWS: Top 10 reasons why Ron Paul uses an Iphone"
    • ajchavar, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6BREAKING NEWS: Ron Paul uses iPhone pre-production with and announces new Mac Book Pros while playing and ranking the Top-10 Wii games with Kevin Rose! [pics]
  • tofslie, on 10/11/2007, -4/+3This is the worst review ever solely based on the fact he has not used the iPhone. To compare an innovative phone that has a completely different interface and completely different usability interaction factors without actually USING it is stupid. Sure you can compare hear say features which the iphone does lack in some areas. But the iPhone was built around a whole different type of thinking than the 700. It was built for ease of use and innovative interaction, it was not built to cram every single thing you can that may or may not be useful such as the 700. The iphone was built to be simple, but feature rich, and then upgrade in a year to make better. My advise is to wait a year however hard that may be for the second gen.
  • kidjay, on 10/11/2007, -5/+3"How many smart phone makers are there really? Palm and Microsoft."

    i thought only steve ballmer believed that microsoft actually MADE smartphones. they don't. they license their (awful) smartphone software to (sometimes awful, mostly terrible, sometimes bearable) smartphone makers.
    • EtherGnat, on 10/11/2007, -5/+6Those awful, evil, men! Licensing their OS so that people actually have a choice. If people have 150 phones to choose from how will they know which one is supposed to be cool? Bad Microsoft. BAD!
    • betterth, on 10/11/2007, -4/+4Wow, it's a great thing we have Saint Apple riding in on it's white stallion to wrench the world out of the dark ages of current smart phone technology.

      Ten bucks says you're under twenty, don't have a decent job and have no use for a smartphone, right?
    • ilgaz, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1Symbian Inc. lists dozens of competing brands using their OS. These brands HATE eachother but use a common, open (specs) operating system. In 6-12 months time, Linux based smart phones are coming which will virtually have NO limit. Tired of how interface works? Install KDE.

      That is way to do things in 2007.
  • nycmac247, on 10/11/2007, -3/+6
    errrr...

    the iPhone most likely will not reset itself 3 times a day... and the syncing will actually work with Macs

    sincerely,

    a 700p owner that has tried The Missing Sync and all the rest of the apps and cheats for proper syncing
    • ericdano, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1Yeah. I have a Treo 650. It has NEVER synced correctly with my Mac. EVER. The phone book does, but iCal. Forget it. Even with MissingSync. Big waste of money.

      Basically, the address book and Pocket Quicken are the only things that keep me using it....
    • ilgaz, on 10/11/2007, -2/+1My Nokia 9300 doesn't even have built in reset functionality and it runs with dozens of software for a month non stop now. It even has anti spam running which intercepts each sms/mms before reaching me. Oh yes, Apple won't put that too for sure because of spammers..err GSM network can go down. :)

      Be a fan, customer,not a tool or fanatic.

    • ilgaz, on 10/11/2007, -3/+2iSync is part of $140 Macintosh OS X Operating System. While paying for it, you also buy iSync suite. Why didn't you send feedback to Apple, your OS Vendor about it? Let them fix the bugs or work with Palm Inc. to fix them.
    • nycmac247, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Also most likely will have push from iCal server as well as the Notes and To Dos in Leopard Mail
  • AFeld, on 10/11/2007, -1/+6Oh come on, you obviously favor the Treo.

    "This crappy list of MP3s is JUST as good as an iPod!"
  • cthellis, on 10/11/2007, -4/+0I really love "fraction of the price" comments, considering once you spec the Treo's up, the fraction ends up being much smaller. Want 4-8GB of storage to match? Toss some more onto the price. Want WiFi? Add some. ...not want SD-based WiFi so you don't block the slot? Add some more to both price and form factor.

    The difference is not so much "price" (since whatever's left can be counted in as "screen improvements" and "form factor") but options and expandability. Do you not NEED 4GB+ of storage? Are you getting the data plan anyway, and don't need WiFi? Do you want/need other applications from the 3rd party market?

    As with other Apple PC's, they build a price-competitive machine, but they also give you a lot fewer options. If you don't WANT it all, you don't have to purchase in that direction, but can we please stop illogical price comparisons and bring the debate to the areas that need it?

    The iPhone also has other traits that we won't know HOW to judge until it's out: How robust is the hardware? How much battery life does it have? How responsive and easy to use is the keyboard? Will the screen unduly smudge or scratch? What are the plan options at&t will offer, and can you opt out (and does that alter the price?) All points, major or minor, go into just how it compares with other phones, price-wise.

    In the meanwhile, let's keep the discussion where things are obvious: the pros and cons of a Treo's base setup and options versus the iPhone, the existing software and support communities... This kind of stuff will change in the future, too, but at least it's discussing the proper points of comparison.
  • raskali, on 10/11/2007, -2/+1Isn't this exactly the same kind of argument that was happening before the ipod came out? Everyone comparing it's features to other MP3 players? Apple sells because of design and its cool factor, it doesn't make things for techies who couldn't care less what something looks like. People will fork out $600 simply because they want to own one, just like the ipod - it's called marketing. It's like people saying sports cars won't sell because they essentially do what lower priced cars will do for more money. The iphone is the sports car of the cell phone market and it will probably do just as well as the ipod.
    • superkendall, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Marketing only takes you so far. There are plenty of things marketed heavily that flop - Waterworld? New Coke?

      Marketing leverages real world reactions to products. If a product is really good it can make it much more successful. But there has to be a base of a good product, and Apple has carried that part off so far with other devices it has developed.
  • LeonardNimrod, on 10/11/2007, -1/+0I liked the report, the author was trying to very fair among a faceless forum of angry, sensationalist pundits. The problem is that he just doesn't know enough about the OS X platform in several of his statements.


    "But, one should never fully judge something just by its specs list."
    • Very true. Too often are decisions made regarding the tech specs without consideration of how they can be used or how easily they can be used by consumers. (eg: Zune squirting)


    "The 700p has been on the market for about a year now. This has given 3rd party developers plenty of time to create thousands of applications for the phone which could potentially put it on the same page as Apple's offering."
    • The author clearly doesn't know of or consider the lifeline of OS X as a computing platform. As for time for 3rd-party apps, there has been over two years and thousands of Dashboard Widget being created by 3rd-parties free of charge. There have even been new Widgets optimized for the iPhone despite Apple's reluctance to allow them. It's a matter of time before 3rd-party Widgets make their way to the iPhone... with or without Job's approval.
    • deesugar, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0LeonardNimrod,
      You're right the 700p has been out for a year now, it's also based on a form factor from the Treo 600 and it's OS is... Well even older then all of the other things. That being said, it's not a fair comparison when it is widely believed that the next Treo (possibly named the 800) rumored to be coming out the end of this year will be a completely new form factor and new OS (possibly based on Linux) and works with the Sprint WiMax network, that should be something more comparable to the iPhone. So since neither of these devices are out yet why don't you wait 7 days for some details of this phone to be announced by Jeff Hawkins and then do some comparisons.

      Read more about the next Treo here:
      http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=140558
    • superkendall, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1I am pretty sure Apple will allow Dashcode creations to be placed on the iPhone. After all, the whole reason for disallowing third party apps is that Apple and the networks want to keep tight control over how the network is used at a low level. But Dashcode and Widgets are at the heart of things simple web browsing, the traffic from which can be managed and cannot get out of hand the way an application crafting custom networking packets can.
    • betterth, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Apple already said there won't be support for third party applications, and that this isn't OSX on a phone, this is a highly modified and stripped down version of OSX built specifically for a phone. Just because an app runs on your mac doesn't mean it will on your phone.
  • eugene2x, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0Oh god, duggmirror is fooling around on the job today!
  • wayne2626, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0I have a treo 650 with all its resets I really want to read the reviews after the iphone is out .reviewing a product before any one has used it is unfair to both products. the treo may be the one to get or the iphone but we can only tell when both are side by side. These reviews do not hold water till the end of June.
  • ilgaz, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3Jbenchmark(.com) guys just benchmarked Nokia N95, it is 1544 Kbps on 3G network. Yes,real life test.

    Salling(.com) Software's lead developer almost lost his mind because he left N95 connected/benchmarked overnight for software testing and it didn't drop 10% battery level. Full battery. That is also a GPS device.

    Keep having fun with Palm. Next time compare it to some same price level device such as Nokia.

    Having to type these kinds of comments on a $thousands Quad G5 makes me really really feel weird but at least I am not drooling over a device which has NOT Shipped and looks even primitive when compared to historical Nokia 7650 in some aspects such as third party app support.

  • GliTCH82, on 10/11/2007, -2/+3"One of the key selling points of the iPhone is its lack of a true external keyboard."

    How is that a selling point? Doesn't it cost a manufacturer money to design and implement a keyboard as opposed to not having one in the first place? I call *****.
    • ilgaz, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Also lets not forget "real" smartphones always have bluetooth keyboard function/capability.

      I had enough time wasting with daily iPhone spam today, I will bury it as "spam" and get out of Digg/Apple.
  • timtimes, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6I prefer to get my technical advice from a website that doesn't suck.

    Enjoy.
  • scronline, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Man, this kind of crap is annoying. Can you compare the performance of a 1965 Mustang against that of a 2010 Mustang? Of course not, because it's not out on the friggin street yet! There is no other industry more intent on overhyping a product than the tech industry. How many versions of the iPod had to come out before they FINALLY got it right? But yet people still kept buying that drivel. Sad part is most were buying them more for the status points rather than for any need to have one.

    Same thing is going to happen with the iPhone. It'll be a pretty gadget and IF it works, it'll be... OK. But not only are iPhone users going to end up getting locked into bad carrier networks. They may end up having to deal with RMAs THROUGH that same carrier. There actually are more important things than cost. You'd be surprised how often I'll talk to someone and they'll literally complain about how our DSL service is better than (some other company here) but they wish we weren't so expensive. After all $5/mth is soooooooo expensive. Particularly when you don't have to call overseas help centers or spend hours in phone trees before you get any help if/when you need it.

    Bah, I'm going to shup so I don't go on a rant.

  • alceria, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5I love when people write very in-concisely in order to drag a 1-page story into 7 pages so we can see 7 pages worth of ads. And why the f*ck has adblock forsaken me?

    I just want the visual voicemail. Yeah the phone is sexy, but I really don't give a crap about the other features. I just want to push a button and hear the one and only message I'm interested in at that particular moment. That is the best cell phone enhancement ever.
  • Bandito, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Because an article written by playafly187 and edited by FunkZ just oozes with credibility.

    Wake me up when the iPhone is actually released and real time comparisons, reviews, benchmarks, etc. beyone speculation an be made.
  • NWFackler, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3I love all these articles that compare the iPhone (an unreleased product!!) to other phones that are out, even though they havent even showed us half of the features that are available. Only God and Jobs knows whats really to come.
  • aacidusX, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1why a treo? why not an HTC Tytn?
  • eexlebots, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Oh jesus god almighty, this article is so full of *****-so designed just to sell adspace. 'Hey here is the speclist for the iphone, why don't I compare it to the Treo and make a quick buck!"

    The warning sign is right off, when the reviewer states, "I am quite familiar with the iPhone." Oh, really? Wow. Great connections there buddy.
  • gerkin, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Nothing to see here except someone defending their year old phone against the new, upcoming, and mostly unkown features of the iPhone. A great sceintific analysis using things such as images and video of the iPhone from the keynote demonstration. Move along folks. Let's at least wait till the iPhone is actually out there before everyone goes nutso for it.

    I won't be buying one. The price is waaaay too steep for me ... when you consider the 3 year lockin required and in Canada they are saying it will only be Rogers ... which requires a 3 year data contract with rates that are unbelievable in this day and age... which in turns may end up requiring a second mortgage on your home (if you think I'm kidding read below for some figures).

    How's this for a "good deal" for a data package, add $10/month onto an existing phone plan and you get data services, along with a whopping 10MB of data for the month (which they claim is more than enough for most users if they are doing simple things) ... their regular bandwidth charge is $0.05 per kilobyte (yes kb, not MB), ibut f you sign up on a data plan you get it for the "discount" of $0.03 per kb (and you have no choice in this, you need a data plan for the iPhone).

    So even if you use < 10MB per month on the iPhone (wich is extremely unlikely, you'll probably use this much just polling the network) let's do the math on the real cost of the iPhone:

    take ($10 per month) * (12 months per year) * (3 years) == $360 + say $599 for the iPhone so let's say about $1000 without even considering the phone plan yet. This also gives you 10MB or less data usage per month. So let's say you watch one 5 minute youtube video ... your bandwidth allotment is now gone for the month and you pay the regular (discounted?) rates now.

    Let's say you use an additional 10MB of data in one month, which is extremely conservative (i.e. you watched 2 5 min long youtube videos and did nothing else at all) ... and let's do the math:

    $10 for first 10MB
    10MB == 10,240kb (10 * 1024)
    10240 * $0.03 == $307.20 (kb used * per kb rate)
    So for that next 10MB youtube video you pay:
    $307.20

    Multiply that monthly bandwidth usage by say 5-10 times for the average geeks usage per month, if not MUCH more than this ... Are you seeing a trend here? How many Canadian geeks who don't read the fine print will end up losing their house to pay their bandwidth bills?
  • Tomson74, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Wow, what a load of crap. Let's compare a PDA that was released over a year with one that hasnt been released. WTF? How can you compare the two at all?
    What gets me about this whole thing, is how people are bashing the 700p. "I have to reset my PDA BS" uhhh, yea, it happens with ALL PDA's. Kinda like Windows. You have to reset the device. Especially if you put alot of "crap" on it. Its a fact. I don't care if its a Blackberry, Palm, or Windows based. You may need to reset it. Sometimes, you may need to reset it *gasp* multiple times a day. MY GOD!!! Plus, Palm is changing their OS to Linux, and its not just Sprint Nextel who will be recieving the phones. So what if Apple released a damn phone. I don't see what the huge deal is about it? Because I know, once its released people will be bitching about it too. Along with all the other PDA's.

    I would like people to name one PDA, or a PDA that they have had for over a year, and say they haven't had to reset the device.
    Everyone seems to be a tech when it comes to PDA's and the bottom line is, they dont know crap about them, they just think they do.
    So yes people, YOU NEED TO RESET YOUR PDA's, it's a fact. GET OVER IT. It doesn't matter who the carrier is. Whether its Cingular, VZW, Sprint Nextel , or whoever.
    Its how PDA's work.
  • deltree, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1nevermind, nevermind.
  • stevew928, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0I guess the big question will be to wait and see if the iPhone works well. I have a Treo 700p, and previously had a 650. While the 700p is an improvement on the 650, IMO, it still sucks. I curse the thing out daily. Its biggest problem is that it really isn't a very good phone. It's basically a PDA with a phone tacked on. It reboots when answering calls. It responds incredibly slowly to button pushes, which often results in pushing it again... then when it does respond, it does several things. Many of its 'touch screen' actions are pretty hard to accomplish, even with the pen, let alone with a finger. Its multi-tasking sucks.

    I want a phone, which also has some extra capabilities. Primarily, it is a phone though. Palm doesn't get this.

    And, no I won't 'Get Over' having my device reboot on me all the time Tomson74. If the iPhone doesn't do this, I don't care if it is a full PDA or not.... it does 95% of what I do with the Treo. If it does that well, and the phone part actually works.... the Treo is history outside of speciality apps.

    -Steve
    • Tomson74, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0
      Well, what your describing happens to all PDA's

      Treo's, The Q, Windows based PDA's

      It's common in ALL PDA's Which I did state.

      I am willing to bet itunes does the same thing

      Of course, how many 3rd party apps do people have running on their PDA's?
      How many people install these 3rd party apps directly to the device itself instead of an sd card?

      So yea, its not JUST the Treos. Its all PDA's.

      .
    • EtherGnat, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1The iPhone isn't going to be that great as a phone, either. No keypad means you're not going to be able to dial without looking at the phone and it will be harder to operate one-handed or with gloves on. The soft keyboard means that anytime you're interacting with the phone a large portion of that beautiful screen is going to be covered. If anything happens to the touch sensing or the screen you won't even be able to make a phone call. No physical volume controls or any other keys. Finally battery life may be a real issue, and there's no way to use an additional battery.
  • elfuego, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Does the iPhone play any video content other than h.264? No? Well, in that case I'll stick to my 650. There's a lot to be said for dragging/dropping my TV and movie torrents to watch on the bus.
  • petejonesrn, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1How can a phone that's not even OUT yet be compared? Sheesh.

    This might just be the most highly anticipated electronic device yet.
  • slapthemonkey, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Exactly. Till the time its not in the market and consumer start using it, cannot comment.
  • dpace32, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1i have a 700P and the third party support rocks! i cant imagine leaving the PALM OS
  • dogearedboy, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Why can't we just wait till the friggin iPhone comes out before REVIEWING IT.
    Apple has a reputation of holding off on telling all the features of an unreleased product until it is actually released.
  • trent31, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Equivalent features may be one thing, but the iPhone looks sooo much better. Good example is the Motorola RAZR. It was incredibly popular because it look hot, even though it was an unreliable and rubbish phone.
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