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Economic Consequences of the Bailout Plan: Japanification
firedoglake.com — Japanification was always the plan of the Busheconomy because it makes the winners of the final game permanent. All extra money in the system will be pumped to the people who made the bad decisions that crashed the prior economy, they will stay in power and with a dynamic economy no one is likely to rise to replace them.
d2kd3k- 718 diggs
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- DeliciousWolf, on 10/03/2008, -13/+10We're not quite as bad off as Japan though, as a large number of the Japanese bank loans were made to Yakuza to speculate on land, and the banks were not able to foreclose on the property (Vice-Presidents who tried, died). Here, banks are going to foreclose on bad mortgages and sell off the property to close the bad loan.
- hugolp, on 10/04/2008, -1/+5You can buy US house by 1 dollar on Ebay. I am guessing banks wont do a lot of money out of foreclosures.
- huyznaetkto, on 10/04/2008, -15/+1
- aguire, on 10/04/2008, -0/+5Watch out peeps.This ***** is posting links to an attack site.Stay clear, especially if you are using IE since you'll probably not even get warned about the potential danger.
- Bodhinature, on 10/04/2008, -0/+12Also, in Japan, the average CEO makes 11 times more than the lowest level employee. In the US CEO's make nearly 300 times more than their lowest paid employees. If we could add sepukku to the US system I think it might make it more equitable.
- sanman, on 10/04/2008, -0/+3Well, the follow-on effects of protecting the key players in Japan have resulted in leftward shift of Japanese voting trends. People feel fed up and disillusioned with the center-right LDP which has long ruled Japan without serious challenge, and they are now increasingly inclined to vote for the left-wing opposition. Retirees feel bitter that their pensions are dwindling and their taxes haven't gone into maintaining or improving infrastructure.
This voter backlash will happen in the US as well. The retiring baby boom generation that makes up the bulk of the US voter demographic is going to make its anger felt. Meanwhile, they'll be forced to hang onto their jobs, which will block advancement for those below them, which will increase their frustration.
- WhiteRaven, on 10/04/2008, -12/+25Article makes no sense and in some cases utters bizarre contradictions. First of all, this is the plan constructed and passed by the Democrats. The numbers are undeniable... a majority of Dems voted for the bailout, a majority of Repubs voted against it.
And what kind of bizarre thinking would lead one to believe that a *dynamic* economy ensures that those in power will stay in power? Surely that's the opposite of the meaning of the word dynamic.- Neo189, on 10/04/2008, -0/+9In the article, it said "they will stay in power and because there isn't a dynamic economy left, no one is likely to rise to replace them." d2kd3k must have made a typo.
Also: both Republicans and Democrats voted for the bailout. The article makes no assertions otherwise. - aegis9975, on 10/04/2008, -0/+8The bailout was constructed by the Bush administration. It was a bi-partisan plan, and had support from the democrats. The problem was that there are a bunch of House Republicans facing re-election and didn't want to vote for an unpopular plan, others who had a alternative plan, and further others didn't want the socialization of our financial system.
However, it should be mentioned that Japanese banks are doing VERY well right now; primarily due to the fact they learned their hard lesson a decade ago and didn't invest in the recent sub-prime mortgages. Nomura bought out Lehman Brothers overseas assets for a pittance. Mitsubishi UFJ bought out 20% of Morgan Stanley, and are looking to buy more. Further more they have 3 trillion dollars and 5 billion in cash which they have in liquid assets to lend.- gobbleplex, on 10/04/2008, -0/+9This is because the Japanese actually learn from their mistakes and have a tendency not to repeat them. If all this ***** here in the US went away overnight, and we were all back to square one, do you really think the banks *wouldn't* do all the same ***** all over again?
- VitriolAndAngst, on 10/04/2008, -0/+4The floor show of debate between Republicans and Democrats was always going to lead towards passage of this bill.
We won't know how the Dems are going to act, when this criminal mob is out of power and no longer spying on them or holding some sword of Damacles over their heads. - netant, on 10/04/2008, -2/+4You Rush Limbaugh dittoheads are ***** retards. Who do you think was in power for the last 7 years, and controlled Congress for the past 14(?) years (with a 2 year hiatus in the Senate). I am aghast at your stupidity.
1) Bend over Republicans. You have to open up to the possibility you will lose control of both houses of Congress and the Presidency. That's because your hero Dubya did a fine job. Then you get to find out how it felt to be a Democrat during 2000-2006. I'm guessing they'll last at least that long, because in order to make money available, I'm guessing they're going to run our asses out of Iraq and Afghanistan. No one in America will care if the world goes to hell, and Israel is threatened, because if they did, we'd see a lot more suckers volunteering for lifetime military service right now (unless they lose a limb or go gibbering nuts). They will care a lot more about starving to death and how there will be no money for social security or retirement.
2) The country will still go to *****, because getting out of the occupation business will not correct our economic fundamentals. And when the American public figures out the Democrats will not solve that problem, THEN they will go for you choads again. And you will ***** it up again because... (wait for it) REPUBLICANS are THE SAME as DEMOCRATS. Just a different variation of criminal, stupid, and venal.
3) This country won't get fixed until stupid ***** like you Republicans DIE. And take the ***** Democrats with you on the way to meet your maker! Its not about who's Democrat or Republican, its who really has a clue.- AndrewMoyer, on 10/04/2008, -2/+3Vote Palin '08 -- She'll bring the RAPTURE!
/ I'm actually starting to think that'd be better than these bailouts
// I'm atheist - netant, on 10/04/2008, -0/+2@AndrewMoyer
That pretty much sealed the deal, ceasing to toy with voting for McCain. Voting for McCain gives the country a 25-50% probability of putting in a Shiite Christian retard as President.
Thank goodness McCain went along with Obama on voting to betray Main Street Americans. I would have stroked out having to reconsider my 2008 Presidential vote.
- AndrewMoyer, on 10/04/2008, -2/+3Vote Palin '08 -- She'll bring the RAPTURE!
- Neo189, on 10/04/2008, -0/+9In the article, it said "they will stay in power and because there isn't a dynamic economy left, no one is likely to rise to replace them." d2kd3k must have made a typo.
- alharbi, on 10/04/2008, -43/+1
- Azerael, on 10/04/2008, -0/+4...woah.
That is the tallest comment I've ever seen. - Roland1232, on 10/04/2008, -0/+2And the douchebaggiest.
- AgmLauncher, on 10/04/2008, -0/+1People like this are why I welcome the apocalypse.
- Azerael, on 10/04/2008, -0/+4...woah.
- KillaJazzBass, on 10/04/2008, -4/+24I would like to point out that Zeitgeist: Addendum is now available online. Dont digg me up, just check it out.
- opticwind, on 10/04/2008, -0/+9Interesting and insightful but somewhat contradictory article. There's one quote I'd like to address, however: "All extra money in the system will be pumped to the people who made the bad decisions that crashed the prior economy, they will stay in power and because there isn't a dynamic economy left, no one is likely to rise to replace them."
I've stayed in Japan for quite awhile now but this is my opinion. This quote is utter nonsense. Japanese companies replace CEOs like we replace batteries. Often and usually ending with something backwards. Whenever a company begins to crash, you know what they do here? The CEO usually quits or more often, kills himself.- aegis9975, on 10/04/2008, -0/+6This is absolutely true. In fact, Japanese CEOs are one of the lowest paid in the world, especially compared to the US and Europe. Japanese CEOs don't shift or get rapidly replaced by stock holders then the US does. Primarily due to the fact that Japanese shareholders don't look for short-term rise in stock value like US shock holders do. Lehmans Brothers' CEO in comparison paid himself $17,000 an hour ($45million last year, half-trillion in the last 15 years).
- kinship, on 10/04/2008, -0/+5I assumed that this author was not referring to specific individuals, but the power structure of society itself. By no means do i understand what Japan is like today, but Western society itself has become 'rigid', in that the rich will stay rich, and generally do the same thing. What defined the 20th century, and even the 19th, was that this 'contiuum' of wealth was not static. ( I truly imagine were part of a boring era of history now )
- opticwind, on 10/04/2008, -0/+3But in Japan, very few people can accurately call themselves part of the upper-class. This is one of the redeeming qualities here, most people would be true in telling you that they are in the middle-class spectrum.
Sure, we have an upperclass here. But it's not nearly as prevalent (or at least, as strong in appearance).
- opticwind, on 10/04/2008, -0/+3But in Japan, very few people can accurately call themselves part of the upper-class. This is one of the redeeming qualities here, most people would be true in telling you that they are in the middle-class spectrum.
- thedaylights, on 10/04/2008, -0/+5The point is that the power structure remains in place. The families that own the companies remain the owners, and the top companies remain at the top, no matter who they hire to run things. CEO's have a lot of power but they are employees in the very large companies (big banks, manufacturers like GE in the US and Mitsubishi in JP), usually owning a very small percentage of stock.
- andy3109, on 10/04/2008, -0/+2It is because they all failed or are failing at once. If one or two of them were in trouble, the bailouts wouldn't be happening.
- drawguy, on 10/04/2008, -2/+6How depressing. It makes conspiracy theory seem like reality. The powers that be seem to be allowing the US to decay for the financial gain of the few.
- lex0nyc, on 10/04/2008, -3/+2This sounds smart. I have no idea if it is smart, because I fell asleep half way through reading it.
- Ramble, on 10/04/2008, -2/+4Japanification - you mean we're all going to become xenophobic?
- Bloodwine, on 10/04/2008, -0/+3Hopefully this means we start building more robots.
Illegal Immigrants < Robots - Akairenn, on 10/04/2008, -0/+2I hope that's what it means, as opposed to something with tentacles.
- Bloodwine, on 10/04/2008, -0/+3Hopefully this means we start building more robots.
- RationalXubrnce, on 10/04/2008, -0/+7 One thing is certain. It's going to be much harder from here on out for the bankers to hide the fact that they are the real power in America.
Every industry in the country is subservient to the one that has a monopoly on printing money. The families who have taken this right for themselves are the actual government of the United States. - pstroll, on 10/04/2008, -0/+5Yay hentai!
- winnestow, on 10/04/2008, -1/+3is franklin raines in jail yet?
- huyznaetkto, on 10/04/2008, -15/+1
- forgeflow, on 10/04/2008, -0/+5User reported for posting link to an attack site.
- BlackJackJester, on 10/04/2008, -0/+12I assume by 'Japanification' you mean the bad parts, and not the super fast internet, crazy gadgets and good food?
- tuxracer, on 10/04/2008, -0/+6And hot girls
- zeropoint51, on 10/04/2008, -0/+2Japanese girls are hot but they need to to something about their teeth.
- Napiertt, on 10/04/2008, -0/+2and freaky porn
- Desiree1217, on 10/05/2008, -0/+1The internet is NOT fast there, and food is super expensive.
I don't see why Americans fear recession so much. Japan has been in one since the 80s and life is still pretty good there, minus the increase in crime and all...
- tuxracer, on 10/04/2008, -0/+6And hot girls
- doyama, on 10/04/2008, -1/+3I think the article draws some similarities with the Japanese bubbles in the 80's and the current crisis. But the main reason why the Japanese have been in stagflation for decades is because of the politicians. It's like they have no political will or power to do any kind of real fiscal policy. Aside from Koizumi who miraculously lasted so long, Japan's PM's switch on a nearly yearly basis.
I think with the systems that America has in place, it is better prepared to bounce back from this crisis than Japan was or is able.- gobbleplex, on 10/04/2008, -0/+4Even if the US has better systems in place, there still has to be political will to use them. Do you see any political will out there? Do you see a lot of people running for office with a realistic chance of winning who are likely to have any?
- TheInformer, on 10/04/2008, -2/+4"All extra money in the system will be pumped to the people who made the bad decisions that crashed the prior economy"
Like Franklin Raines, top Obama economic advisor?- talmand, on 10/05/2008, -0/+1Shhhh, you aren't supposed to mention such things on Digg. And just to be sure, you are not supposed to also mention that a large number of the "corrupt fat cats" at the center of this mess are in fact Democrats and a large number of those support Obama.
Suggesting such things is an automatic Digg down around here.
- talmand, on 10/05/2008, -0/+1Shhhh, you aren't supposed to mention such things on Digg. And just to be sure, you are not supposed to also mention that a large number of the "corrupt fat cats" at the center of this mess are in fact Democrats and a large number of those support Obama.
- Colony, on 10/04/2008, -1/+5Wow, that was really badly written.
- Micktion, on 10/04/2008, -1/+7There's a lot of people spieling a lot of fear mongering.
Guess what?
The sun will rise tomorrow, people will plant crops, it'll grow, it'll be sold and eaten, it'll all be good.
America has a lot going for it, it is the worlds leader in pretty much everything.
It's companies are the most influential Microsoft, Google, Yahoo, Intel, IBM, Pixar, Disney, MGM etc the list goes on and on.
Silcon valley isn't in China, Japan or Russia.
I think the US will continue to lead the planet in entertainment, business, technology and innovation.
Why? Because it is where the best of the best go to make their mark.
Talk of America being spent is just a load.
It will take time, but this will pass, 4 years from now we'll all be off buying on the stock market again, like it could never possibly ever crash. This happens every 8-10 years, its the same old same old and the sky is not caving in. - morepowerr, on 10/04/2008, -0/+3To the writer. I think you are right on most of this but It will not matter how is in office. Were still *****!
- stonebear, on 10/04/2008, -0/+4I think I'm turning Japanese. I really think so.
- Kilrag, on 10/04/2008, -0/+1What about Bush and how he helped kill there economy. Looks like it all coming around to the US now.
Check out this book review.
Japan Times Article: "Did Koizumi and Bush really destroy Japan?"
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fb20080928a ... - Hrodrik, on 10/04/2008, -0/+2Nandayoooo?
- yubpro, on 10/04/2008, -0/+4This is freaking terrifying. Imagine how our country rises to a fascist rule, corporations and banks that control the government, and he who controls the money of the people, rule the people. We will be nothing but feed for the sharks....
- razorsedge555, on 10/04/2008, -0/+2You mean just like England.
- talmand, on 10/05/2008, -0/+1America won't turn fascists. It's already well on its way to being a total socialistic nation and when Obama wins it will go deeper.
Which is really funny to me because America has always lagged about ten years behind Europe on government theories. Just now when Europeans are questioning whether going so far into socialism was a good idea, Americans are clamoring for their "free" health care and for the government to take care of all their problems.
- nick1971, on 10/04/2008, -0/+3By what metrics should you choose an investment.
If you are looking at a firm you would look at the ability to produce - profit/dividend/capital growth.
My problem is about thinking not only what is produced this month / year but what is the ability to produce next year / next 3 years.
Why is this important not just because of profit but also because of aspects of social justice.
It is great for a profitability of a company to reduce work force wages by 20%. However with this decision you loose the the top x% of the workforce.
Long term cooperate governance is not about short term profitability but about long term success. It should not exist a situation where a CEO fires a call center this year and looses 40% of their customer base because the new generic call center as being incompetent.
CEO's and co. can earn what ever the market rate is for their skills but I expect their compensation package to reflect their long term goals. - nigelmellish, on 10/04/2008, -0/+4I would suggest that rather than reading what non-experts have to write on the subject, and if you really want to know early if we might be headed towards a Japanese style economy, that the diggerati google and read Paul Krugman. He happens to be the one of the (if not "the") best authorities on the subject, and "blogs" regularly for the NY Times.
He is an economic liberal, but regardless of your feelings on the subject - I wouldn't classify him as a non-informative source of prior information. Most recently, he seems to believe that while we might be heading for extremely low interest rates like they have in Japan, we are "only" in for a 2-3 year recession.- talmand, on 10/05/2008, -0/+1Krugman? You mean the guy that worked at Enron?
Oh wait, he left before it imploded, right?
- talmand, on 10/05/2008, -0/+1Krugman? You mean the guy that worked at Enron?
- dysonlu, on 10/04/2008, -0/+2In these kinds of situations, the naysayers always *seem* to be right because bailout or not, plan or no plan, the economy is going down the drain and bad times are upon us. But hear this: If there was no plan, no bailout or however you wanna call it, it would be far far worse for all of us, ALL OF US.
- talmand, on 10/05/2008, -0/+2They always seem to be right because people who should know better listen to them.
If you pay attention there's always someone who runs around claiming the sky is falling. Often it causes panic that in turn actually causes the very thing that person was claiming was going to happen.
Much like the gas shortage in some parts of the South. A rumor gets started that gas stations are running out and won't get new supply for weeks. EVERYONE runs to the nearest gas station to fill up and then fill up containers from around the house. The gas stations then become empty and won't get anymore until the following Tuesday. That increases the panic more until almost every station in the area is dry. All the while if any gas station tries to raise prices to stall the panic demand they are hit with price gouging laws.
It's a similar thing that happens when someone tosses out the rumor that Steve Jobs had a heart attack so that someone can sell Apple stock short. People react to these things instead of taking a moment to find out the truth before reacting.
Happens all the time.
- talmand, on 10/05/2008, -0/+2They always seem to be right because people who should know better listen to them.
- pap232323, on 10/04/2008, -0/+2vote Mel Gibson '08
- ToxicGas, on 10/04/2008, -0/+2Even if this did happen, it wouldn't last. The sheeple are submissive because there there is an illusion of hope and free will. Once the illusion goes away, sheeple will become wolves hungry for blood, and revolution will happen.
- jabelar, on 10/04/2008, -0/+1I don't think the article is particularly accurate, but I have to say that with the recent moves US has officially become one of the more socialist countries recently. Geez, even Canada only has socialized medicine, not a socialized banking system! And it is not far-fetched that the airlines and auto industry are going to be socialized soon too.
- hellbent187, on 10/06/2008, -0/+1I think he's pretty much right on in his assessment. This bailout package is only setting everyone up for a bigger disaster in the very near future.
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