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7 Reasons Why Graduate School Is Outdated

blog.penelopetrunk.com — It used to be that the smart kids went to graduate school. But today, the workplace is different, and it might be that only the desperate kids go to graduate school. Today there are new rules, and new standards for success. And for most people, graduate school is the path to nowhere. Here are the 7 reasons why it is outdated

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  • claycollins, on 06/19/2008, -1/+6Damn. I was already feeling unmotivated about grad school already. Now this!

    Great article. And insightful too.
    • robbh66, on 06/19/2008, -0/+1Let's do an experiment. I'll finish my MBA, you don't go off to grad school.

      In 30 years we meet to see where each ended up. Deal?
  • upick, on 06/19/2008, -1/+97. Early adult life is best if you are lost.

    AHHAH this is true, when you are lost you are more carefree
  • blackolive, on 06/19/2008, -6/+7This missed the best reason:

    That it's faster to learn on your own. (Like Bill Gates, Peter Jennings, Abe Lincoln, etc.) College is just about money - almost everything they teach can be learned faster by yourself, except medicine & a few expensive sciences.

    Self-education is always better than tutoring. Anyone who's truly interested in knowledge will learn on their own.
    • chaosium, on 06/19/2008, -2/+4Let me self-learn myself a PhD, BRB.
      • blackolive, on 06/19/2008, -2/+2It's not "BRB" - I've spent my *whole life* learning as much as possible. Not just 4 years.

        Meanwhile most paid-adult-tutoring kids - who're often drunkards & fratboys - just want money.

        Besides, Pastor Fred Phelps has a law degree. And ever seen "The Simple Life?" Nicole Richie graduated from the university of Arizona...

        I prefer learning on my own.
        • eir574, on 06/19/2008, -0/+3Yes, some college degrees are worthless. That doesn't mean they all are. Going to college also doesn't mean that I don't plan to spend my whole life learning as much as possible. I chose a field of study that absolutely requires that I do that.

          Frankly, most of your comments here sound like some sort of sour grapes issue. Did you not get to go to the college or graduate school you wanted to?
    • StaticThunder, on 06/19/2008, -1/+5@blackolive

      Spoken like a person who has no idea what a Ph.D. is in ANY science, not even a cheap one. Pro-hint: It isn't about knowledge, its about method.

      Maybe a case could be made for people with natural talents in some humanities field, but not anything with rigor.And then, most people don't need a Ph.D.

      But self-education doesn't stand a chance by comparison if you do.
      • gordonj, on 06/19/2008, -1/+7It's just like that old "teach a man to fish" proverb. Being shown the methods and framework behind learning allows you to learn far more on your own than if you tried to teach yourself. The most important thing my degree taught me was how to tackle a problem and how to find relevant information regarding a subject.
        • blackolive, on 06/19/2008, -3/+2@StaticThunder & gordonj

          I've seen *many* college classses & lectures - I learn faster than that by myself. *Far* faster.

          "The most important thing my degree taught me was how to tackle a problem and how to find relevant information regarding a subject."

          That's *obvious* to some people...

          Colleges are full of drunks who just want money, it's not about knowledge. You two need to wake up.

          Graduate school is just tutoring - it's high school style group learning - and you may not be able to see that if that's all you've done in life.
        • eir574, on 06/19/2008, -0/+4"Graduate school is just tutoring - it's high school style group learning"

          Did you go to graduate school? If so, what field? If your graduate school was just tutoring and high school style group learning, then you went to an extremely poor one. That's not what my experience was. Sure, there was mentorship, but the biggest goal was to produce *independent* scientific researchers who can work in teams, but who don't need leadership from an authority figure to produce outstanding science.

          "Colleges are full of drunks who just want money"

          Yes, some of them are. But, just because there were a few drunks at my college who didn't care about learning, that doesn't mean it was impossible for me to make college about learning and knowledge. I found plenty of people there who were able to help me. Maybe I could have done most of that on my own, but the mentorship of those who are more experienced in life and in their fields is invaluable. Don't discount the value of learning from others.


          As far as problem solving being obvious, you're partially right. Some techniques are common sense. But, if you went to a decent graduate school, you would have started to approach problems that are far more complex to solve. I went through periods where I literally felt like there was no point in getting up in the morning because the problems I was working on were so complex and I was making so little progress. The most valuable skill I learned in graduate school was probably how to deal with problems when it's absolutely NOT obvious how to solve them. Do you really think that the work done by the world's best scientists (just picking my own field here) could have easily been done by any random person with a modicum of intelligence because it's obvious how to solve problems?
        • ozydingo, on 06/19/2008, -0/+5@blackolive:
          You were making a half decent point until you threw in the thing about drunks. That's just silly. As eir said, obviously there are some--and I'll add that they are mostly undergrads--but it is by no means generalizable to the entire collegiate population of any school.

          And the reason I said half-decent was as was pointed out above. Some colleges, and perhaps even some degrees, you can apply your point to. But some fields allow great benefit from learning with some one-on-one time, and observations and mentoring. Let's take an easy example--Med school. If you studied neurosurgery from a book, that doesn't mean you're going to be any good at performing it.

          It really sounds like you've never had a decent teacher, which is truly a shame. In any field at any school, there are good teachers and bad ones. There are classes I've taken that I could have learned the material faster on my own, I don't deny that. But there are classes which were brilliantly designed, and the interaction with the instructor and other students was an absolutely invaluable part of the learning experience.
        • StaticThunder, on 06/19/2008, -0/+6"Graduate school is just tutoring - it's high school style group learning - and you may not be able to see that if that's all you've done in life."

          No, its not, and if you think it is its because you've never actually been through a rigorous program. Its about developing and defending solid ideas from sometimes actively hostile peers. Its about learning how to learn, test your ideas AND teach them. All things that can be discussed in a book but not understood until you actually do them.

          I'm not sure I can ever relate it to someone who has such a narrow and biased view of education, and an overinflated sense of their own ability to learn without doing.
        • chaosium, on 06/20/2008, -0/+4"Colleges are full of drunks who just want money, it's not about knowledge. You two need to wake up.

          Graduate school is just tutoring - it's high school style group learning - and you may not be able to see that if that's all you've done in life."

          I doubt you have any sort of degree.
  • dcmusicfusion, on 06/19/2008, -0/+5Increasingly an MBA, even at the top level, becomes only a way to buy your way in the door at more places (aka HR departments).

  • known, on 06/19/2008, -0/+3It is imperative to solicit 'why' and 'how' type of questions from kids whether they sound rational or not.

    School teachers across all private and public schools should 'record' these questions everyday and 'display' in school websites.
  • sleepyjjk, on 06/19/2008, -0/+13I believe the article is steered towards lawyers and people who are trying to get MBAs (she mentions these things in points 2, 3, and 4). Point 6 (Graduate school is an extension of childhood) it isn't valid for majors who have to do research and find their own funding for their research.

    And also, graduate school is actually free for most engineering majors and science majors. The schools will pay for your tuition if you TA and/or do research for the institution.

    Anyway, I just wanted to post this because though this article may be valid for many people, those that want to go into the sciences or engineering should not be swayed. (Does anyone else know what other majors this applies to?) For example, it would be hard to get a job in physics if you did go to grad school for it.
    • StaticThunder, on 06/19/2008, -2/+6Digg parent up.

      It doesn't take a Ph.D. in English to be a good author, it doesn't take a Ph.D. in Art History to be an art critic.

      It does take one in most technical fields to be a lead researcher or engineer.
      • blackolive, on 06/19/2008, -1/+2This *isn't* about art or writing:

        *All* knowledge can be read from books. The only time college is better is hands on work. (Which can be learned through jobs, volunteering, etc.)
        • eir574, on 06/19/2008, -0/+5Knowledge and intuition aren't exactly the same thing. You can learn from books, and some people do. But, having someone who is an expert in his field put the knowledge in context helps you build intuition. If you've never had a teacher who could impart more than what's written on the pages of a book, then you've missed out on one of life's great experiences.

          Hands on work was a huge part of my college experience, and it was the vast majority of my graduate school experience. I did learn through jobs and volunteer work, and that experience was important, but there's nothing quite the same as an environment created just for the purpose of learning where it's okay to screw up.

          At least in the sciences, graduate school is much more like an apprenticeship than it is like college. My program required us to take only six classes, and the rest was hands on work with progressively less supervision. Not only did I not have to pay tuition, but I received a reasonable stipend for my work because I was doing a job, not just going to school.
        • StaticThunder, on 06/19/2008, -0/+3Its not about knowledge, its about methods for working with knowledge.

          Its training, not memorization and book learning. Again, you have no idea what a Ph.D. actually is. Bachelors degrees could be earned from reading a book. A Ph.D. involves conducting actual research. Its training to manage a research project, not simple acquisition of facts. Anyone with a Bachelor's can learn anything they need from a book, they have learned how to learn. What they have not learned is how to propose good questions and make discoveries and formally test an idea. In whatever field.

          And while they may have books on all those things, without peers critiquing your performance, you will never be anything more than mediocre at it.
        • eir574, on 06/19/2008, -0/+5"What they have not learned is how to propose good questions and make discoveries and formally test an idea."

          I think many people do enter graduate school thinking that they know how to do those things well. The first step is learning that you do have much room for improvement in those areas and that those who are further along in mastering those skills have something to teach you. Those who think graduate school has nothing to teach them that they couldn't learn on their own will make poor professionals in their fields. If there's one thing admissions committees should try to select against, it's attitudes like blackolive's.
        • StaticThunder, on 06/19/2008, -0/+3"I think many people do enter graduate school thinking that they know how to do those things well."

          Undergrads know everything. Masters know otherwise. Ph.D.s know that they don't, and neither do you.

          /yes its a bit ivory tower but within every stereotype is a hint of the truth
  • TaylorDiaz, on 06/19/2008, -3/+2I agree wholeheartedly with this assertion and will also take it a step further in saying that a Bachelor degree is becoming outdated.

    The needs of the marketplace across various industries seem to not require much of the information taught in college. I used to believe college was relevant just 5 years ago but sadly US colleges have not kept pace with the demands of industries across all spectrums.

    • ozydingo, on 06/19/2008, -0/+3Try to get a job at AMD or Intel without having studied computer or electrical engineering, or at least computer science. You'll need that bachelor's, and typically more for many of their jobs.
  • ankeshk, on 06/19/2008, -3/+2Mathematically speaking, graduate school isn't worth it at all. It takes close to $80,000 - $100,000 to pass out from a good graduate school. This degree however won't increase your pay scale by more than $10,000 - $15,000. That means, it takes you forever just to pay off your additional student loans!

    Instead of going to graduate school, try finding a mentor and apprenticing for someone very smart. That's free education for you and will pay you more in the end (as you build your skills and contacts).
    • chaosium, on 06/19/2008, -1/+3"Instead of going to graduate school, try finding a mentor and apprenticing for someone very smart."

      Gosh, how easy!
      • blackolive, on 06/19/2008, -1/+2"Instead of going to graduate school"

        ... Instead you could read the books & watch the lectures by the *exact* same people. (and far more books.)

        All knowledge can be read from books - college is only better at teaching hands on work. (Which can be learned through jobs, volunteering, etc.)
      • ankeshk, on 06/19/2008, -1/+2Its not easy. (Its not too hard either). But its definitely a better option than spending 2 years in grad school and blowing $100,000!
    • w00tfest99, on 06/19/2008, -0/+3Where are you getting $80,000? Washington University is around $1200/credit hour. If you take 40 hours that's "only" $48,000. I doubt there are $30k in books/fees to be had. I know there are more expensive schools but there are also a lot of much much cheaper schools.

      Also, a lot of companies will pay for you to go to graduate school so all of that money doesn't come directly out of your own pocket.
    • ozydingo, on 06/19/2008, -0/+4Depends what degree and what field. A post-bachelor's Ph.D. in engineering will give you a lot more pay boost than $10-15k, I don't have stats but I think it's closer to $40k in computer engineering. Then of course combined that with the fact that in a vast majority, from what I've seen, of Ph.D programs in engineering and sciences you can get funding which includes not only tuition, fees, & insurance, but also a decent stipend. And while you're at it, you have the opportunity to get connected with a lot of people all of whom can become great mentors. So at least in some fields your point would seem not to hold by any measure.
  • stephenhacking, on 06/19/2008, -1/+4The whole education system needs a overhaul.
  • nwelsh, on 06/19/2008, -0/+7Valid points, but very short sighted. Graduate school is where a lot of research gets done. Especially in the area of technology and science. Not only is it a great for research, it's a training ground for leaders and future thinkers. Participating in a good graduate program connects you with some very accomplished and insightful at the same time it provides life long skills that might to not be available to everyone. Not everyone has the prowess or means to start their own web2.0 internet, technology startup.
  • Cate320, on 06/19/2008, -0/+4I read this article while I was taking a break from writing my M.Sc. thesis :(

    But thankfully, I don't think much of the points in the article apply necessarily to the sciences.
  • jadeee, on 06/19/2008, -1/+3I see the point - but there's a flipside to that coin. I quit one grad school and lectured at another. I helped one guy who finished school in yr9 skip straight to an M.Bus/Finance when he was ready. Then learned you can do a PhD for free if a professor sponsors you - it's definitely the way to go when you're good and ready - which (like film school) is usually after you've gone out and lived a little.
  • csmark, on 06/19/2008, -0/+1Great article but there are a few situations where it doesn't hold true. A bachelor's degree is only important if you don't have one. I wish I could say I came up with that statement, but it was one of my friends who has a masters in physics and teaches 8th graders and makes a butt load of $$ compared to teachers who only have a teaching certificate.

    When it comes to the life sciences such as chemistry (yes you can argue if this is a life science or not but I'm including it anyway), biology, and a few other -ologies, excluding scientology of course, that require proof that you can do more than fill in the correct circle in a classroom. Can you think? Can you communicate your thoughts? Can you write publishable papers? Can you think up of a novel question and then go on to write up a grant proposal that will get funding to answer said question? An extreme example is MIT where they had to lighten things up a bit because their graduate students were throwing themselves out of windows on a regular basis. Those are real graduate programs because if you haven't felt like throwing yourself out of a window you're probably in a slacker graduate program. Ok, that's a little extreme and I apologize if I offended anyone, but the point is made.

    I'll be the first to say a rigorous process isn't part of a lot of graduate programs in other fields. Think for half a second and you'll think of one.
  • detachedDesigns, on 06/19/2008, -0/+0So true...
  • zen53, on 06/19/2008, -0/+2Self education is the best form of education!
  • xOpifex, on 06/19/2008, -1/+2Anyone who thinks self education is the best form of education is egotistical and is setting themselves up for failure.
  • anselm83, on 06/19/2008, -1/+1Self-education is all anyone needs in our crazy new millenium. Elementary school -- not to mention middle, high, college, graduate, etc -- is just, like, sooo 20th century. Learn from an expert in my field or surf Wikipedia? Obvious choice. Chances are if you polled a group of multiple-Phd individuals, most of them would have an IQ under 90 for sure.
  • thegreenspanput, on 06/19/2008, -0/+0to undecided undergrads in business or high schoolers who may be reading this:

    consider becoming a CPA... they are always in demand, boom times or recession. Accounting is the language of business and has nothing to do with "counting beans". It is conceptual. I think 30-40% of CEOs are CPAs.

    Now audit and tax is horrible, internal accounting is actually enjoyable.
  • Enochulator, on 06/19/2008, -0/+0Grad school is not entirely over-rated, it depends on why you want it. For sciences, particularly medicine and engineering, grad schools are very important because of the researches done to advance knowledges for mankind. But for something like arts and history, why would one need a Masters or even PhD degree?

    If you go to grad school solely to make more money in the future, then you are setting yourself up to failure, because that's not grad school's real purpose. Self education or practical education is more important in that case because it helps you understand the real world situations. In case you don't know, the real world doesn't follow theories a lot.
  • jennyv13, on 06/19/2008, -0/+1this is true..i havent been sure on grad school, this helps a lot!
  • sean808080, on 06/19/2008, -0/+1this article is full of generalizations and misinformation. 'grad schools close doors, it doesn't open them" what kind of nonsense is this? how does someone put forth this kind of drivel with a straight face? FAIL!~
  • executiveimpact, on 06/20/2008, -0/+0Great article. It is important this viewpoint gets exposure to people considering MBA programs because all the billboards, email marketing, and direct mail marketing is telling people they should go for it. People who want some well researched backup to support Penelope's position will find it in this article, which I may be able to supply if interested: The End of Business Schools? Less Success Than Meets the Eye by Jeffrey Pfeffer and Christina T. Fong dated September, 2002. There is also at least one longitudinal study I have which correlates income by MBA school, demonstrating typical economic paybacks (there are other potential paybacks, of course) typically in the 7 to 12 year time frame.
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