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Schools facing tight budgets leave gifted programs behind
query.nytimes.com — Struggling with shrinking revenues and new federal mandates that focus on improving the test scores of the lowest-achieving pupils, Mountain Grove and many other school districts across the country have turned to cutting programs for their most promising students.
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- DiggerA, on 06/15/2008, -9/+198The dumbing down of america in full force
- jetblackstrat, on 06/15/2008, -0/+23It has been in full force for some time now, as apparently the article was published on March 4th 2004.
Which just makes it all that much sadder as I'm sure this has only gotten worse.- shoyou, on 06/15/2008, -3/+0*Groupthink alert* Gifted programs are fluff! The pedigree counts for a lot more than the obedience training. (see comment to DiggerA below)
- onefreakykid, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1So you can be a complete idiot but if you come from money you'll be okay? Does that really make sense to you?
- shoyou, on 06/15/2008, -3/+0*Groupthink alert* Gifted programs are fluff! The pedigree counts for a lot more than the obedience training. (see comment to DiggerA below)
- 47f0, on 06/15/2008, -0/+26We cut gifted programs, music and phys-ed while retaining one of the most top-heavy school administrations of any country. No one else spends the percentage we do on school boards and administration costs.
It's not about the money - it's about spending the money stupidly.- lisaawesome, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2Amen man. I don't understand why we need a an entire school district for each podunk town here in Oklahoma. There are usually clusters of tiny cities that could easily combine into a single district and cut out a huge percentage of the highly paid administration. It's a HUGE waste of money to have all these extra non-teaching professionals on the payroll. If only one district is needed for all of Oklahoma City there is absolutely no reason why each town of 500 people needs their own district.
- metric7, on 06/15/2008, -13/+8Govt. schools must go
- pintomp3, on 06/15/2008, -3/+13i can't wait to send my kids to enron high.
- Fhwqhgads, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3http://www.spinninglobe.net/againstschool.htm
- jimpbblmk, on 06/16/2008, -1/+1I like the way he thinks. This crap has gone on too long.
- nycmac247, on 06/15/2008, -0/+10Tha's just part of it; the next generation will think its normal for the US to be a third world country in all respects, not just education.
- tidu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+12funding education is the greatest future investment any country can make. so much for that.
- vision777, on 06/15/2008, -2/+1If people want these programs they have to vote for school millages to pass. All these programs cost money.
- fool13, on 06/15/2008, -0/+6The problem is where the money is being allocated. School administrators are making 6 figure salaries in many parts of this country, some even receive bonuses during the Regents as an added incentive. Cutting back on sports, music and the arts is terrible when we spend so much money on other aspects. Mentally challenged students receive TWICE the amount of funding than regular students gifted or not. How is that fair? Everyone should be entitled to an equal education - that is not equal.
I remember back in middle school playing soccer there was a budget cut and for the next 2 years there was no school soccer team. When I got into high school there was no freshman soccer, no Junior varsity soccer - just varsity. Considering there was 20 kids on the middle school team only one made the varsity team that year. The other 19 of us weren't able to play for the 3rd consecutive year. I guess I'm kind bitter when I see the retards in classrooms with a 1:1 student teacher ratio when I was in an honors class with a 25:1 ratio. So we cut back and screw everyone to help a few kids who will never be able to function in society, thats so stupid. I'm just happy I'll be able to make sure my kids live in a district that won't have to cut back so they can play sports, music and have access to all the gifted programs in the world.- Pake, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2I would argue that too much money is being put into the sports teams and not enough into the education. At many of the schools my friends attended and even the school I attended, they were cutting music and art programs, while the football and baseball team had their funding increased by a ton.
- lotsa1s, on 06/15/2008, -1/+2If you're not a potential benefit to society, you should not get the benefits of society.
- vision777, on 06/25/2008, -0/+0But what if your kids are born and need the extra help, do you think you will still feel the same way. Be careful what you say and put yourself in other peoples shoes.
- shoyou, on 06/15/2008, -4/+1Actually you're wrong, gifted programs promote ability tracking which disenfranchises learners and fortifies social stratification.
- Mothrog, on 06/16/2008, -0/+2Life promotes ability tracking and foritifies social stratification, idiot.
- hydroplane, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1You get a gold star for trying!
- pixelbender, on 06/16/2008, -1/+2I think the fact that too few people understand why Ron Paul would be a good choice speaks to the stupidity level in the United States.
I don't care how smart one may be, at some point it is just too tiring to fight the idiocracy any more.
Oh, and a few moments on Digg might be a good indicator as well.... ;)
- jetblackstrat, on 06/15/2008, -0/+23It has been in full force for some time now, as apparently the article was published on March 4th 2004.
- alapoet, on 06/15/2008, -6/+93That's really unfortunate, and completely counterproductive, from any rational standpoint.
- JimmySpaza, on 06/15/2008, -23/+4Well, to be rational about it, why don't YOU contribute more of YOUR taxes to help keep these programs going?
[crickets chirping]- ElAssoWipo, on 06/15/2008, -2/+11Damn you're stupid.
- ssn697, on 06/15/2008, -6/+1Yes, he is. But shouldn't you at least say:
"Damn, you're stupid" if you are going to call someone else stupid? - ElAssoWipo, on 06/15/2008, -0/+5Shouldn't that be: "But shouldn't you at least say: "damn, you're stupid", if you are going to call someone else stupid?"?
- ssn697, on 06/15/2008, -2/+1LOL
It turns out there are many ways to screw up, when pointing out JimmySpaza's stupidity! - JimmySpaza, on 06/15/2008, -3/+1Ad hominem attack by a "compassionate" liberal. Let's stay on topic, shall we?
- ssn697, on 06/15/2008, -6/+1Yes, he is. But shouldn't you at least say:
- sethorama99, on 06/15/2008, -1/+3Good point. I'll keep my taxes spent on helmets and drool buckets.
- tidu, on 06/15/2008, -1/+3oh, you mean the taxes that are paying Blackwater in Iraq? Or the ones that went to build that 692 million dollar embassy? Maybe it's the money that went to Homeland Security, or the money spent building that million mile fence along our border.
- EtherGnat, on 06/15/2008, -0/+4"why don't YOU contribute more of YOUR taxes to help keep these programs going?"
I try, I vote for every school funding issue that comes up.
- ElAssoWipo, on 06/15/2008, -2/+11Damn you're stupid.
- 55mph, on 06/15/2008, -1/+6Imagine if the money being spent in Iraq and Afghanistan was spent inside the United States? $6000 a minute.
- Sil369, on 06/15/2008, -1/+6no, they want to keep kids dumb so their only option IS iraq
- regeya, on 06/15/2008, -1/+8I think the thing you fail to realize is that the United States doesn't have the money to spend $6000/minute on ANYTHING.
- aladrin, on 06/15/2008, -2/+3Is it? If the choices are 'leave the lowest behind' or 'fail to push the best to their limits', I know what I'd pick... Even though I was in the Gifted program at my school and loved it. If there really is no other way to get the budget for it, then dropping the Gifted program is the way to go.
So no, not from 'any rational standpoint'. Just some of them.
It just so happens that the Gifted program was canceled at my elementary school a year after I left. And the Middle school one sucked. But high school had a different system... Honors courses. I think they are a -hell- of a lot better than Gifted programs, anyhow. My high school also had dual-enrollment, where you took college classes for credit in both college and high school, at no cost to the student. That was even better yet. My sister managed to do 4 years or highschool credits and 2 years of college credits in 3 years. Yeah, she graduated highschool a year early with 2 years of college under her belt. The didn't offer me the same opportunity, but my kvetching is probably what led them to allow it for her.
So there's another way to handle this as well: Change the way it's handled.
And there's a third way: Let the parents teach their children stuff after school. If the parents care, they'll be willing to do it.- Gerz1219, on 06/15/2008, -1/+7I think the choice is simple -- leave the lowest behind. We're transitioning to a service economy in which a lot of skilled labor will be outsourced and most remaining jobs will only require the most menial skills -- flipping a burger, running a cash register, pumping gas. In order to do these jobs, people need only the most basic knowledge of arithmetic and language.
The gifted kids will be competing for an ever smaller number of high-paying jobs, which will require creativity and advanced critical thinking skills to solve the very serious problems we're going to encounter this century. We can't afford to dumb them down. We can afford to dumb down the masses. - mysedai, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3You know, you wrote a BBOT, but I think I can sum it up as, "Blah, blah, I was in gifted, but other kids will be just fine without it. Better, even, because I know somebody who did something special. Parents should be in charge of their kids' own private gifted classes."
Look, the reality is that there are some kids for whom a traditional education is a waste of time and money. There are kids that, no matter how many resources are spent on them, are never going to be good students. That's fine, we're all different. Teach them a skill instead of Shakespeare. When I moved here, the school system was at least two years behind the curriculum from my last school system. There were no gifted classes, but there were Resourse classes, which is the polar opposite of gifted. The resource classes, in case you were wondering, were not for the special ed kids. They were for kids who had the mental capacity to do well in school, but didn't give a *****. Not one of those kids ever even graduated high school, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say that was a waste of tax dollars.
Gifted children whose potential are not recognized tend to be socially outcast, and by the time they get to high school, Honors classes are too little too late and even if they take Honors, many struggle because when most people were learning study skills they were sleeping through a class they didn't NEED to study for.
What if a gifted child is born to a parent who doesn't have a high school education? How, exactly are they supposed to teach their children this magical "stuff"?
Students who need extra help in school should have access to that help, whichever end of the "special needs" spectrum they fall into.
- Mothrog, on 06/16/2008, -0/+2Yeah, nothing makes more sense than abandoning the kids that will be the move and shakers and instead focusing on the ***** destined to sweep floors and ask who wants fries with what.
- Gerz1219, on 06/15/2008, -1/+7I think the choice is simple -- leave the lowest behind. We're transitioning to a service economy in which a lot of skilled labor will be outsourced and most remaining jobs will only require the most menial skills -- flipping a burger, running a cash register, pumping gas. In order to do these jobs, people need only the most basic knowledge of arithmetic and language.
- desertDenizen, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2I was in a gifted program, graduated from high school a year early, graduated cum laud from undergrad, and later returned to get an MBA from Wharton. I'm now 40, well-established in my career, and plan to go back to get a PhD combining evolutionary psychology with behavioral economics. Frightened by what I see going on, I absolutely will be HOMESCHOOLING my kids. Web curricula, kid-meetup social networks, and recent policy shifts have made it very easy and doable. (Not to mention, both my partner and I work from home on something like the "NR" lifestyle from Tim Ferris' "4-Hour Work Week.")
I'm sorry to see Gifted programs go, but I'm not taking any chances on my own kids.- desertDenizen, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1... I meant to add this but got timed out: To pre-empt naysayers, I'd advise you to look into what has been happening in the homeschooling world -- it's a huge underground movement among the new class of highly educated, mobile information workers. Most concerns involve socialization, but that is very adequately addressed. I have personally found that would-be critics go abruptly silent once I tell them I'll be teaching my kid history on the Acropolis, and evolution in the Galapagos. Seriously. And you don't have to be rich, you just have to structure your life around it.
- swedishfishing, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1damn, kudos. I've wondered what I would do if I have kids someday, and if public education is still this bad in 10-20 years, I know I'll have to find some alternative. My parents sent me to private school, so I guess I'd do a prep school too if I could afford it, but it really sucks that you can't count on public schools to actually teach. Your kids sound very lucky to have you!
- desertDenizen, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1... I meant to add this but got timed out: To pre-empt naysayers, I'd advise you to look into what has been happening in the homeschooling world -- it's a huge underground movement among the new class of highly educated, mobile information workers. Most concerns involve socialization, but that is very adequately addressed. I have personally found that would-be critics go abruptly silent once I tell them I'll be teaching my kid history on the Acropolis, and evolution in the Galapagos. Seriously. And you don't have to be rich, you just have to structure your life around it.
- JimmySpaza, on 06/15/2008, -23/+4Well, to be rational about it, why don't YOU contribute more of YOUR taxes to help keep these programs going?
- wilcocola, on 06/15/2008, -20/+26Well, when you have NO money, something has to go, would you prefer they eliminate general education first, or gifted programs?
- bonk2k, on 06/15/2008, -10/+139How about sports?
- magamiako, on 06/15/2008, -6/+38Then all the yuppies will cry that our kids will become even more obese!
- akifbayram, on 06/15/2008, -4/+44Obese > Stupid
- SydBarrett420, on 06/15/2008, -10/+21Don't you have to be pretty stupid to be obese?
- regeya, on 06/15/2008, -0/+10Why do schools have to have both Physical Education and sports?
Sports are great, I know, and you learn teamwork, cooperation, etc. Those can be taught at significantly lower cost, though.
Maybe instead of eliminating government education, we can eliminate government sports? Does anyone realize what a money sink the average sports program is? And finally, at a time when we're being told that oil prices will never go down, we want to continue to send diesel-powered buses all over our states just to teach a small percentage of kids about teamwork?
I'm fairly sure this proves that people thinking that eliminating gifted programs while keeping sports more or less proves that the educational focus at public schools is all wrong; and if you've ever been to a typical school board meeting, you'll realize that parents have way too much say. Honestly, at my wife's last gig, there was one guy who kept pushing for a soccer program. The textbooks were old, the high school building a turn-of-the-20th-century building which was literally falling down, severely understaffed, but this guy wanted to spend all kinds of money to build a soccer field so the school could play the three other schools in the lower half of Illinois which have sports programs. Meanwhile, most the kids at the school were playing soccer in private leagues anyway...a kid motivated to play sports will play sports. - AmateurX, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1Operative word being "more"
- TinternAbbot, on 06/15/2008, -21/+4Sports (or physical education) are arguably more important than gifted programs and are available to all students, not just a minority.
- bjornski, on 06/15/2008, -1/+13Everyone can play kickball.
Not everyone makes the other teams.
Sports are the biggest waste of any school budget. - johndi, on 06/15/2008, -0/+9You're kidding, right? I like sports as much as the next guy. I enjoyed playing sports as a kid and still do. If you take sports out of school people will still play. Americans are so pro sports that it won't make much difference. Parents will volunteer and even probably even pay to have their kids play play competitive sports. Look at the non-profits like Pop Warner and Little League. It's easier to argue the glorification of athletes and derision of scholars is part of the problem.
- mysedai, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3I don't know where you went to school, but where I went it was always the same twenty kids on every sports team, no matter how many kids went out for the team.
- bjornski, on 06/15/2008, -1/+13Everyone can play kickball.
- Tryptomine, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3Would never happen, unfortunately. Sports have become the 'face' of schools, their representation to the community and other schools. Money will always be thrown away for useless sports programs just so they think the look better in other's eyes, even if their academics are crap. And then when you get to college, you can rest easy knowing that even if you can't add 2 + 2, you can enter any school you wish, and later make more money then 95% of the population for your ability to punt a bag of compressed air.
- jisrael, on 06/15/2008, -2/+1yeah, money gets thrown at sports programs but sports programs also bring in TONS of money for schools. Math-bowls and Science Fairs don't really draw the same crowd...
- Kanidia, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1You're talking about the people who excel GREATLY in sports. Most people are average, and will not be as successful as you describe them as.
- magamiako, on 06/15/2008, -6/+38Then all the yuppies will cry that our kids will become even more obese!
- spiphy, on 06/15/2008, -5/+22They have already eliminated general education. This is a public school we are talking about.
- Rabbittt, on 06/15/2008, -2/+46In a crunch like you're talking about, the first things that should go are frills like extracurricular activities, athletics, and vocational studies.. Lots could (and should) be on the chopping block before academics..
- kc23266, on 06/15/2008, -1/+27Agreed with everything except vocational. Not everyone is going to be a college graduate (no matter what NCLB says). We need our mechanics and pre-school aides too.
- mysedai, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3The high school I went to had a program set up with the local vocational/technical school, so that if you were a non-college bound student you could take classes there and learn a trade instead of taking regular electives. It wasn't a bad system. You have the option to take the college-bound curriculum to prepare you for that, the vocational curriculum, so that you knew a trade when you graduated, and the slacker curriculum, where you didn't have the stuff you needed to go to college, but you didn't have to go learn a trade either. That one was popular with potheads and trustafarians.
- senkmajer, on 06/15/2008, -4/+7The research shows that by making "frills" available to kids (athletics, extracurriculars, and elective "non-core" classes) the drop-out rate falls. As you cut those programs, dropout rates rise.
- JimmySpaza, on 06/15/2008, -0/+20A lot of kids have, in effect, already dropped out but still attend school. These kids don't care. They are just going through to motions and doing the bare minimum to graduate. They are physically there but their minds are constantly elsewhere.
- mdwstmusik, on 06/15/2008, -2/+4What research?
- quasipolymath, on 06/15/2008, -2/+2Firstly, citation needed. Secondly, if extracurriculars are all that are keeping kids in school then why bother with those kids. If this is the case, then high school becomes an adult babysitting center to keep such kids off the street rather than to teach them anything. The resources spent to keep those kids in classrooms and "engaged" gets pulled from the mouths of kids who are there to learn, most poignantly from those who would genuinely like to excel at learning. It seems that if the parents of the top learners were to be aware of this and wanted to act in the interest of their children, rationally they would put their children into private schools, academies, Magnet schools, etc. The best and brightest end up ok, as typically they come from financially better-off families for whom this is a viable option. However, what happens to the culture of the school for those that are left?
- ichbeineinrcg, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3For the research piece:
Surveys of 2,621 Anglo and Mexican-American secondary school students and dropouts in the Southwest found that individuals participating in extracurricular activities were 2.3 times more likely to remain in school than nonparticipants.
http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/r ...
Or this:
Feldman, Amy F. & Matjasko, Jennifer L. (2005). "The Role of School-Based Extracurricular Activities in Adolescent Development: A Comprehensive Review and Future Directions."
Findings: This article reviews research over the past 30 years on the effect student participation in school-based extracurricular activities has on "academic achievement, substance use, sexual activity, psychological adjustment, delinquency and young adult outcomes." Questions regarding the definition of "at risk" students are raised in this article. It is postulated that the student's perception of school may be more indicative of potential drop-out risks, rather than the race or socio-economic status of the student.
Summary of results: "...we can draw several general conclusions. School-based, structured, extracurricular activity participation, in contrast to participation in unstructured activities...is associated with positive adolescent developmental outcomes, namely (a) higher academic performance and attainment; (b) reduced rates of dropout; (c) lower (to a degree) rates of substance use; (d) less sexual activity among girls; (e) better psychological adjustment, including higher self-esteem, less worry regarding the future, and reduced feelings of social isolation; and (f) reduced rates of delinquent behavior, including criminal arrests and antisocial behavior." Regarding the relationship between extracurricular participation and reduced student dropout rates, "Mahoney (2000) asserted that it was not the activity that led to lower dropout rates. Rather, it was the social networks that adolescents acquired through participation that kept them engaged with their schools and prevented them from dropping out."
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It's pretty well a settled issue--if you give a kid a reason to want to stay in school, they'll take it. - senkmajer, on 06/16/2008, -0/+2Thanks, ichbeineinrcg.
I use eric database for info like this all the time, I just didn't have the citations at my immediate disposal.
- enri, on 06/15/2008, -2/+3Silly Rabbittt, school is for sports.
Sorry. I couldn't help myself. :P - GordonV, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2Quote from Mr. Holland's Opus (a movie about a band teacher), "You can teach students the 3 R's, but without Arts, they won't have anything to read or write about."
- kc23266, on 06/15/2008, -1/+27Agreed with everything except vocational. Not everyone is going to be a college graduate (no matter what NCLB says). We need our mechanics and pre-school aides too.
- elvenrunelord, on 06/15/2008, -13/+15Oh there are plenty of places we can get money for our schools. How about we cut the money for killing people all over the freaking world for a start. Next how about we place a higher import tax on all that toxic crap coming from china that our children are playing with. Then just for good measure we could put a 1/4 of a percent tax on all financial instrument transactions that occur in the country and take care of every financial problem this country has.
Does that give you some ideas of where to raise funds so our most intelligent children are given the best education that the greatest country on the planet can give them?
Can you tell this makes me mad? We you damn right it makes me mad......the rest of you should be jumping up and down and screaming- vinnyvenus, on 06/15/2008, -5/+17More taxes. It's an awesome solution to nearly every problem we have.
/sarcasm - SydBarrett420, on 06/15/2008, -12/+8do you lefttards ever stop? I am totally opposed to the war, but I can't stand people who bring it up as a source of all our problems. If we weren't in Iraq do you really think that money would be used for public education instead?
- sethorama99, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1It's a little known fact that the war is being funded by local property taxes.
- jameskong15, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2Who are you to say it wouldn't be? At least it would be available for us to use for education rather than unavailable as of today.
- regeya, on 06/15/2008, -0/+5The war in Iraq is being funded by our children and grandchildren, in the form of skyrocketing debt. I'd love to have a magic checking account where I just write the amount I need, spend it, forget about it, and leave it to the next generation to either deal with or ignore.
Instead, if I were to do that, I would go to jail. - connorf, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1yes.
- SydBarrett420, on 06/15/2008, -2/+2Do you idiots understand that the war is funded federally and public schools are funded by the state with some federal subsidies? Instead of worrying about the Iraq War who don't you go ask your state reps. wtf they are doing with your lotto money?
Do you Diggtards ever stop to think that maybe Bush isn't the only problem?
BTW, in what ways is Obama going to reform current drug laws? Oh yeah, he's not because hes a ***** spinster just like the rest.
- jhelmer, on 06/15/2008, -1/+2The war is funded with federal money (as is appropriate). Schools are funded with state and local money (as is appropriate). The war has *nothing* to do with school funding. I get it, you don't like the war, but you can't blame all of societies ills on the war.
- vinnyvenus, on 06/15/2008, -5/+17More taxes. It's an awesome solution to nearly every problem we have.
- metric7, on 06/15/2008, -1/+22Why do they piss so much cash away?
Look at china, india and russia. They
pump out engineers for a pittance
compaired to us- york2600, on 06/15/2008, -0/+10China and India don't worry about the stupid kids. Do you think they have special ed. We spend a lot of money helping out the dumb kids and not much helping the smart kids because "they're already smart"
- trevorh, on 06/15/2008, -0/+4It is arguable that China and India produce more engineers than the United States. Some foreign countries use a much broader definition of engineer that inflates the numbers of graduates from places like china and india.
http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/dec20 ... - mysedai, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2Yeah, but they send them here for that education, get special treatment, and then go home with that education.
- priegog, on 06/15/2008, -0/+21No, but how about they stop trying to raise lazy-ass kids' grades? Your grades should be YOUR responsibility, not the goverments (provided you are given a good enough education in the first place). The no child left behind program has caused a lot of unnecesary damage to schools, that could easily be dealt with.
- regeya, on 06/15/2008, -0/+9Indeed. All No Child Left Behind really did was to put more emphasis on passing standardized testing at the expense of effective education. In reality, NCLB made schools worse, not better, and in some cases led to impossible situations. One example is Cairo, Illinois, where every school, by law, should be shut down, but there are no schools within a 50mi. radius which can take the kids, because all THEIR scores are too low, too.
- jhelmer, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2So what's the real problem here? NCLB for pointing out the fact that all the schools in that region suck or the school districts themselves for failing at their primary responsibility.
I am not a fan of any type of federal meddling in education, but in this case, it would seem to me that, NCLB pointed out a *real* problem. One that should have been noticed and addressed a long time ago but before NCLB there was no real incentive to address. The compromise with Kennedy forced the Republicans to strip out any good remedies for these situations (Yeah bipartisanship! Now we have the worse of both worlds.), but at least the problem is being recognized.
While we probably agree that typical federal one-size-fits-all federal mandates are no good there has to be objective standards for the schools in this country. I'm all for allowing each district or state to come up with it's own standards but, I think we can all agree on a handful: Eg. If kids can't read by the time they are out of the 3rd grade (for example) the school is failing. If kids can't do basic addition, subtraction, etc. by the time they are out of the 3rd grade the school is failing. If kids can't do basic algebra by the time they enter high school the school is failing. If kids don't know who fought in the Revolutionary war by the time they are out of 6th grade the school is failing. The only way to evaluate this stuff is by testing. If you just allow the schools to continue without any accountability they will continue to fudge the grades while never actually teaching anything of value.
- jhelmer, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2So what's the real problem here? NCLB for pointing out the fact that all the schools in that region suck or the school districts themselves for failing at their primary responsibility.
- regeya, on 06/15/2008, -0/+9Indeed. All No Child Left Behind really did was to put more emphasis on passing standardized testing at the expense of effective education. In reality, NCLB made schools worse, not better, and in some cases led to impossible situations. One example is Cairo, Illinois, where every school, by law, should be shut down, but there are no schools within a 50mi. radius which can take the kids, because all THEIR scores are too low, too.
- secrity, on 06/15/2008, -0/+10I see so much waste at the schools around here; they provide laptops to elementary school children, the school buildings have lots of wasted space, the elementary school near me has a VERY expensively equipped playground. The waste goes on and on while every at election there is a school bond issue -- that passes.
- hmunkey, on 06/15/2008, -0/+7Who is going to be the next live saving scientist? Who is going to be the doctor? The world leader?
Sure as hell the gifted kids, and it's important that they get their education. - mcsenget, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1They could begin by getting rid of art class and gym class, for one thing. Then you could eliminate lunch time, too and cut it down to 4 hour days, perhaps?
- vision777, on 06/15/2008, -6/+0Well if these kids are truely gifted they will still excel in society and be fine in the end.
- mysedai, on 06/15/2008, -0/+4You weren't a gifted kid, were you?
- kublerross, on 06/15/2008, -4/+3how about we cut the ***** out of iraq and take care of our business at home
these 'patriots' who support the waste of tax money in other lands are all too happy to let our own country rot
it boggles the mind - ThreeDee912, on 06/15/2008, -1/+7Our school just built a entirely new track, football field, baseball field, and even new tennis courts. But our old computers back from 1999 (yes, almost a decade ago) still haven't been upgraded.
- bonk2k, on 06/15/2008, -10/+139How about sports?
- spyd3rweb, on 06/15/2008, -24/+33Could stop buying all those student laptops... I mean wtf is wrong with pen and paper anyways.
- kc23266, on 06/15/2008, -7/+10Because computers are the present AND future, and teachers have (for good reason) begun basing their lessons around the internet and research.
- spyd3rweb, on 06/15/2008, -4/+14Then go to a computer lab.
- senkmajer, on 06/15/2008, -2/+14I understand that is what you *think,* but the research shows that by putting a laptop into the hands of disadvantaged kids, their grades actually fall because rather than having a static distraction such as a TV, you have a distraction that fully engages the student.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/04/education/04lapt ...
http://www.slate.com/id/2192798/- SarahC, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Which ones the cause and which is the effect?
They were given to disadvantaged kids in that article on nytimes... exactly the sort of person who doesn't regard academia very high on their priorities. - AngelaQ, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1In schools where students have laptops, classtime is wasted having to monitor their usage. Students want to IM their friends, play games, and visit MySpace, not do research, mathematics, and writing on their laptops.
- SarahC, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Which ones the cause and which is the effect?
- tidu, on 06/15/2008, -1/+3www.addictinggames.com anyone?
- JimmySpaza, on 06/15/2008, -0/+24True. How many kids can add, subtract, multiple, and divide WITHOUT a calculator? How many kids can spell without a word processor spell check?
Computers are simply a tool to make life easier. But, if the kids don't understand the basic math and science behind the programs that are running, who cares if they can use a computer?
This is why so many teenagers working a register freeze and look stupid when you give pay for your food using a certain combination of dollars and cents. They have never been taught to think away from a computer or cash register with nice, little pictures on it.- metric7, on 06/15/2008, -0/+8My mom worked a part time job
when she was in high school. She
was a cashier at a supermarket and
you were expected to make change
using your head.- lisaawesome, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Sounds like my mom too metric! She says she worked at McDonald's in the 70s during high school and they did ALL of the price calculations by hand and employees were regularly tested for speed and accuracy by the manager. My first job was at 15 as a carhop for Sonic and you had to be able to figure change in your head when you were outside with a customer. It amazed me seeing how some of my coworkers struggled with that. As much as the job sucked, it got me really good at doing subtraction quickly in my head.
- mysedai, on 06/15/2008, -0/+4I used to stun customers at the store I worked at when they would hand me their money and I'd just tell them how much their change would be off the top of their head. I can actually do change faster in my head than I can punch it into the register. I credit it to my mother making a game of it when I was a kid and learning about change and money. She'd always try to get me to tell her how much change she'd get before it came up on the display. Eventually, I could.
I'm not bragging about my not-terribly-impressive ability to do math inside my head, I'm just giving props to my mom for being a really good teacher. - HotDogBun, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1That's not all she did with her head. Your mother had a magnificent mouth.
- Fratz, on 06/15/2008, -2/+2"How many kids can add, subtract, multiple, and divide WITHOUT a calculator? How many kids can spell without a word processor spell check?"
Barring apocalypse, how many kids will ever need to do any of those things unassisted?- jhelmer, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3OK, but can you honestly say that you are educated if you can't?
- CoolBluReason, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1I have to do those things unassisted, and it makes me feel human.
- lisaawesome, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Work as a carhop at Sonic and you will be doing addition and subtraction without a calculator. I've never seen a carhop have to use a calculator for the change so there you go. All those kids will do math unassisted without the apocalypse.
- gobbleplex, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3Working as a carhop at Sonic? That's the best that someone can aspire to by learning how to do basic math in one's head? There's got to be something more compelling than a minimum wage job to make such a point.
- Fratz, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2"can you honestly say that you are educated if you can't?"
We're talking about spelling and arithmetic, both of which have a lot more to do with memorization than with education. The education part comes much later if they're taught about mathematical theory and word origins. - Fratz, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2"I have to do those things unassisted, and it makes me feel human."
That's cool, but it makes me feel human to do things a machine can't do. - AngelaQ, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2Every time you are in a store without a calculator, you have to either be able to calculate costs or run the chance that you will spend too much or be ripped off. That's why it's such a shame that so many kids have no conception of addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. In school, they do some random calculation without understanding what they have done, they get it wrong, but they get partial credit. In life, you just lose. No partial credit awarded for financial mistakes.
- Mothrog, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1So, you carry a calculator with you absolutely everywhere along with a computer? Believe it or not, sometimes it's a good idea to actually know something, instead of depending on a machine to be able to spit the answer out for you.
- Fratz, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1"So, you carry a calculator with you absolutely everywhere along with a computer?"
Have you bought a phone recently? Modern phones are calculators and computers.
I agree that there is merit in knowing things instead of relying on machines, but most of what's been put forth as a merit amounts to parlor tricks like calculating the tip in your head, or knowing what the exact change will be, both of which are remnants of our ancient physical monetary system.
If we really want students to learn math and spelling, there has to be a reason other than, "You'll know how to do it if your cell phone battery dies or if you have to pay with cash and don't have time to do the math on your phone."
Taken to the absurd, why not teach everyone how to ride a horse before they can get a driver's license, because you never know when you might not have your car but you have access to a horse?
- metric7, on 06/15/2008, -0/+8My mom worked a part time job
- kc23266, on 06/15/2008, -7/+10Because computers are the present AND future, and teachers have (for good reason) begun basing their lessons around the internet and research.
- Maynza, on 06/15/2008, -15/+67I never understood gifted programs anyway, if a child is ahead of the rest of their class why not just move them ahead a grade?
I say this as someone who was both in gifted classes and skipped ahead a grade.
I do agree though that there is plenty of money to be had by spending less on the sports teams. In highschool we had all brand new football gear/fields every year but they couldn't even afford new biology books.- Rabbittt, on 06/15/2008, -8/+18You might hurt someone's feelings!
- magamiako, on 06/15/2008, -3/+54Maynza:
There are lots of reasons not to do this, particularly is that it doesn't really help them later on in life to be this way. For one, if they skip ahead a grade, they're younger than everyone. Now not only do you possibly have to deal with bullying, but the bullies are older and more developed than you are physically.
Also, a lot of American Education builds on skills learned earlier on. "Gifted" students (I was one, by the way) while we learned quickly, you still can't completely ignore the fact that if you never learn it at all it may become detrimental in the future.
You could say the above statement could be countered with studying over the summer, but do you think I or any other kid would want to do "school" over the summer break? You've got to be kidding me!- Maynza, on 06/15/2008, -2/+81 year isn't that much, and maybe I was just lucky since I have always been a big guy but I never had any problems with age.
And as far as not learning things, I have yet to be in a class even in college that didn't have at least a week of review.- Wizardneck, on 06/15/2008, -1/+2I would contend that your reply demonstrates a typical failure of comprehension through faulty extrapolation. You're ok(ish), so everyone else will be. Great analysis. Hmmm.... you're not old enough to have kids yet, are you?
Odd that you hold yourself up as an exemplar, while admitting you're bigger (than average), and you fail to pin down that , just as intellectual age and readiness of comprehension differs from one individual to the next, so too does emotional maturity.
I was in a gifted programme (yes, I spell differently from you, and there's a good reason for that....) as are both my kids here in the US, and I've had years to observe how gifted programmes work on two continents. My conclusion: the range of abilities at any given age is no more persuasive an argument for padding the year above with younger gifted kids than it is for having kids remain in their age group receiving an enhanced education.
Perhaps your grasp of demographics/class loading could use an overhaul too.
- Wizardneck, on 06/15/2008, -1/+2I would contend that your reply demonstrates a typical failure of comprehension through faulty extrapolation. You're ok(ish), so everyone else will be. Great analysis. Hmmm.... you're not old enough to have kids yet, are you?
- 420buddah, on 06/15/2008, -1/+13I'd have to disagree.
Although I'll admit most of my gifted segragation probably didn't benefit me much in school. I did, however, receive stellar education in mathematics during middle school. The program was separate from the gifted program in that I had to take a county wide test given to other gifed students to be selected for the program, though.
The most important thing about it was the teacher I had for those three years. In fact, the influence and teaching methods of that teacher is probably the primary reason I'm majoring in mathematics today. Unlike any teacher I had before then, he was capable of capturing my attention, and focusing the math education on understanding the subject or teaching me fairly advanced concepts like "proofs" in the sixth grade.- ell0bo, on 06/15/2008, -1/+10Yeah... I enjoyed being gifted but still managing to grow up like a normal kid with my friends from child hood. I didn't mind getting my mind challenged more then everyone else for an hour or so a day, but I would have been depressed to leave my friends. I do wish I had been giving a bit more of a challenge growing up, I wouldn't have gotten in as much trouble, but if I had been taken away from my friends I'm sure I would have been even worse.
Also, I know jumping me ahead in grades wouldn't have helped. It wasn't until my 3rd year of college that I needed start studying. Moving me ahead years would have just meant I lost small things.
- ell0bo, on 06/15/2008, -1/+10Yeah... I enjoyed being gifted but still managing to grow up like a normal kid with my friends from child hood. I didn't mind getting my mind challenged more then everyone else for an hour or so a day, but I would have been depressed to leave my friends. I do wish I had been giving a bit more of a challenge growing up, I wouldn't have gotten in as much trouble, but if I had been taken away from my friends I'm sure I would have been even worse.
- Maynza, on 06/15/2008, -2/+81 year isn't that much, and maybe I was just lucky since I have always been a big guy but I never had any problems with age.
- RockSlice, on 06/15/2008, -1/+38Because "gifted" (ie smarter) children don't aren't just at a higher learning level, they learn faster, and even a higher grade will leave them bored and frustrated. It just might take them longer.
There's also the issue of putting the children in the company of the older, bigger bullies.
The really sad thing about this is that instead of nurturing the brightest minds of the next generation, they'll be restless in class, diagnosed with ADD, and medicated down to the learning speed of the rest of the students.
I count myself extremely lucky that my parents never looked to medication to solve my lack of attention. They (and great teachers I'm really thankful for) worked to keep me engaged.- Maynza, on 06/15/2008, -3/+7I don't think bullying is an acceptable reason not to give a child the opportunity to learn and be challenged.
- RockSlice, on 06/15/2008, -3/+12You've obviously never been at the wrong end of bullying
- Maynza, on 06/15/2008, -3/+10Being choked on the ground in front of my house sucked, but I don't think it would have mattered what grade I was in.
- Metasquares, on 06/15/2008, -2/+2Ditto.
- Maynza, on 06/15/2008, -3/+7I don't think bullying is an acceptable reason not to give a child the opportunity to learn and be challenged.
- jcaino, on 06/15/2008, -2/+15In a Gifted program, you typically work on projects and assignments that go beyond the scope of the typical classroom. Moving me up a grade would have gotten me out of high school quicker, but I wouldn't have had the same level of education and expanded experiences that I was able to receive in the gifted program. And I was only placed into the gifted program my sophomore year, which is rather unusual. I believe that most of my teachers always just thought I was a retard or a slacker ;oP
- aethelberga, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3When I was in school, there were no gifted programs. I was skipped ahead a grade, which helped a bit, but they wouldn't do it again, because then I really would have been too young for my classmates. It was never anything to do with bullying. @magamiyako, buy the time I got to high school and _could_ take classes over the summer, I did. Every summer. And finished high school a year early as a result.
- LuxFX, on 06/15/2008, -1/+21Gifted programs don't teach the next grade level material, they teach different material outside the scope of the schools normal syllabus.
- gryphon50, on 06/15/2008, -3/+4I was in a gifted program. I'm not really sure how much good it did me. But it was clear while I was in it that they were trying to foster creativity and just putting a kid in the next normal grade will not do that.
- Rippleeffect, on 06/15/2008, -3/+5I was a "gifted" student through most of 2nd-8th grade. Top of my class, administration wanting to skip me a grade (in 6th they wanted to move me to 8th since I was working by myself out of the 8th grade math book), student of the month district wide for three separate months, member of the California Gate Program. Gate = Gifted and Talented Education. It was a total waste of time though. Nothing ever got done in there. They'd pull me out of class to go take the "mind" tests, and I recall doing one separate project in the four years I was there.
The district recommended me for a new start up school in the area being funded by the State as an new concept school called the Palmdale Learning Plaza. This was my 8th grade year. There would be no grades and everything was project based. It was supposed to be a new method of teaching focused on individual students with the ability to not hold those gifted students back, letting them expand their minds. Only problem was that the curriculum was not finished.
There were two courses available to take, one for technology and one for aviation (since we're in the same town as Lockheed, Boeing, Northrop, etc.) The aviation course would focus on building a kit airplane in the course of the year and fly it. The technology would focus on computers and other forms of technology. Only problem was that there were no computers for the first half of the year at least. I ended up wasting my time doing brain strain puzzles, playing Doom on the in-class PC, (485 sx2-50) doing a couple of projects and doing regular classwork imported from another school. To keep us busy, they started making up stuff to do (mostly borrowing small project ideas from the aviation side) Had a paper airplane contest, made balsa wood airplanes and flew them. It was boring enough that the "instructor" gave us lots of free time to work with any projects we wanted. A 1/6th scale model airplane was brought in for the 2nd semester for me to build in my spare time. Since I finished all my work quickly, I was allowed to work on it in class while everyone else build their Popsicle stick models with hot glue. I was able to finish the 6.5ft wings before the year was over. By the time that year was over, I was no long ahead of anyone else.
California's "gifted" programs were and are still a joke. They are just a waste of money and don't stretch the child in any way. The money should really be spend on reducing class sizes so teachers can give more one on one time, not play the babysitter to 40 students.
Long rant, but I actually see this as an ok thing. Maybe I just had a bad experience with it, but I've yet to find someone that had a positive experience with gifted education. My wife was in the same program and had the same horrible experience.- MillionsLivio, on 06/15/2008, -3/+1You just had a bad experience; I was in a gifted class for many years through school and it was by far the best thing that ever happened to me. I had the best teacher I ever had (and most likely will ever have), she taught me so many life lessons that would have taken me many years of struggling just to learn, if ever. She taught us all how to how to efficiently think for ourselves, not what to think, as the school system tries to do. I'm currently currently 17, in college while finishing high school on the side, and well on my way to accomplishing my goals--which at one point I thought were unrealistic.
- BlackGlenn, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3I had pretty much the same experience in California's GATE program. In the Oakland USD they didn't have any classes for us so we just got labelled as "gifted." We moved to Hayward and I got to do great things like finger painting. *****-wow.
GATE was a complete waste of my time and probably hurt me more than it helped because I was told that I was "gifted" and skated on my natural ability.
- OUChevelleSS, on 06/15/2008, -1/+6I was the gifted programs at my school. The activities they do aren't equivalent to regular course work, so moving up a grade isn't really the best thing to do. The activities were based on non-standard school stuff, I guess to help our brains 'flourish' in the areas we were gifted at.
- coreyb, on 06/15/2008, -0/+6I was held back. Our schools did not have a gifted program, stupid budget cuts... I was so friggin' bored that I was labeled a slacker and ultimately kicked out of high school. It wasn't until college that I found out that I was actually smart and learned different than everyone else.
Grades and "standard testing" do not equal intelligence. For some, the current system just does not work, therefore a gifted program is absolutely necessary. - Unnis, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1"Skipping" a grade is not a good way to do things. Instead, you need to pace the rate of learning much differently or restructure the course.
Gifted or special needs education is much more difficult, since you need to uniquely tailor the material to the student. You also have to watch more carefully for mislearnings a bit more aggressively (i.e. recognize that a student mangled the GCF algorithm since it wasn't clearly shown in the book) and need to know how to help overcome any deficiencies that arise (e.g. writer's block). - MaskedSlacker, on 06/15/2008, -3/+1Yes, but in most high schools football teams pay for themselves via concessions stands and/or tickets.
- desertDenizen, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3Oh HELL no! All of my best D&D playing was done in Gifted! Certain we'd all become suicidal devil worshipers, our school banned it, so we re-named it Monsters Monsters, and the dumb ass administrators never figured it out, despite constant rolling of 20-sided dice. Don't ***** with smart kids.
- MacroDaemon, on 06/15/2008, -20/+12In my country, there are no gifted programs nor do people ever skip ahead a grade. It works just fine.
- theaceoffire, on 06/15/2008, -1/+91In my country, 80% of the class have to wait for 3% of the class to freaking catch up to what is going on, every class period.
Our "required reading" has dropped in complexity, the tests have gotten easier, and we are being trained to take said tests rather than for life.- fantasyflamz, on 06/15/2008, -0/+6Seriously, I realized how low we had sunk when in the list of summer reading we could choose from for 12th grade, there was a book I read in 5th grade. I feel like instead of lumping everyone together, especially in summer reading, they should make 3 different categories so that it may actually be enjoyable and at my reading level to read. I mean, it's not fair to us to bring us down to the level of those bottom 10% who can't cut it. That's why I liked that my school had sections of learning: 2, 5, 8, and Honors according to your level of learning and how well you did in school (2 was lowest, 8 was highest, and some classes had honors available).
- lisaawesome, on 06/15/2008, -1/+3ahaha sounds like me during freshman year in high school! I saw what we were reading for the year and thought jesus christ didn't I read all of these books in the 6th grade?! It made for one hell of an easy year. And this was an honors class I was in too!
- Kanidia, on 06/16/2008, -0/+2In my country, 3% of the class has to wait for 97% of the class to freaking catch up to what was going on, provided that they attended class in the first place. IB really prevented me from going insane.
- fantasyflamz, on 06/15/2008, -0/+6Seriously, I realized how low we had sunk when in the list of summer reading we could choose from for 12th grade, there was a book I read in 5th grade. I feel like instead of lumping everyone together, especially in summer reading, they should make 3 different categories so that it may actually be enjoyable and at my reading level to read. I mean, it's not fair to us to bring us down to the level of those bottom 10% who can't cut it. That's why I liked that my school had sections of learning: 2, 5, 8, and Honors according to your level of learning and how well you did in school (2 was lowest, 8 was highest, and some classes had honors available).
- Stavrosian, on 06/15/2008, -0/+21In my country, I had to spend half my time in school sat around bored out of my mind waiting for the topic to move on to something which I and many others around me didn't already understand completely.
- aladrin, on 06/15/2008, -1/+6Think of it as good training for the rest of your life.
- tidu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+8me too. No studying, nothing. Then I got to college and was *****, and had to actually put forth effort. At least private colleges still know how to run an educational institution.
- Stavrosian, on 06/15/2008, -0/+5Same here. By the time it was necessary for me to work hard, it had been 10 years since I had done. That was a bit of a culture shock.
- lisaawesome, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3Even now as a senior in college I struggle with studying because I never had to in high school and many of my classes I still don't have to study for and pass with no problem. I have been actively working on improving my study skills but it is still my main weakness and frustrates me often.
- priegog, on 06/15/2008, -3/+2Agreed, one would think to raise the level US schools, the goverment would look into more succeful systems that have already proven to work, instead of pouring a ***** on money on lil bush's bright ideas.
- hmunkey, on 06/15/2008, -0/+6In America, the average is extremely low compared to other nations. So it sucks being smart, because you're just dragged down.
- theaceoffire, on 06/15/2008, -1/+91In my country, 80% of the class have to wait for 3% of the class to freaking catch up to what is going on, every class period.
- pcgeek101, on 06/15/2008, -28/+15Let's hear it from all you dems .... raise taxes, right?
*facepalm*- theoriginalaks, on 06/15/2008, -7/+15I was under the impression fostering the leaders of tomorrow and promoting the countries brightest individuals was worth a few of everyone's dollars, but I am sorry! Your kids (if you have them) are not most likely not gifted who so gives a ***** about those who are, what they can do for the future, or anything else as long as it does not mean you have to care about anything enough to spend money on it. Remember, right now is what counts, tomorrow is for the hippies!
- Lavarock, on 06/15/2008, -1/+9I was under the impression fostering the leaders of tomorrow and promoting the countries brightest individuals was not dependent on the dollar amount in a school's coffers, but I am sorry! Your school (if you have one) is most likely receiving more money than it ever has but who gives a ***** when their performance is dropping nonetheless?
Caring doesn't equal money, didn't your mother ever teach you that? The solution is not to throw more money at them.- theoriginalaks, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1Your argument equates to no solutions, or even anything anything of substance, just tiny little straw-mans.
"I was under the impression fostering the leaders of tomorrow and promoting the countries brightest individuals was not dependent on the dollar amount in a school's coffers"
Obviously you should be now, bright and gifted students thrive when challenged, schools are running out of money to provide the classes that help these students, the future of America, thrive. obviously, money is very important because schools are not run on gumdrops and lollipops, so sorry you were not aware before.
"Your school (if you have one) is most likely receiving more money than it ever has but who gives a ***** when their performance is dropping nonetheless?"
Wow, what better way to show your grasp of wit and the English languages endless well of insults then to copy the other sides little digs! I could go on but instead I will attack the substance and not the fluff, the point you make is well, shows a remarkable ability to be blinded by your own short sided ignorance to how things really are.
To put it in a logical manor that I am sure you will ignore completely, your statement first of all implies you have intamant knowledge of my schools funding and its performance rating, sense you obviously do not, proving once again you can not make a real arguement I will humor you and just assume you are implying all schools are receiving more funding. Unfortunately for you, the very article you have commented on, even your first comment to which I replied to, proves you wrong, I will let you and others meditate on just how badly that reflects upon you before I continue to explain how wrong you are!
The article which you have commented on, which prompted me to comment on your comment was about how a school was NOT receiving enough funding, not about it receiving more funding but still performance was dropping, in fact schools around the nation have been losing funding and being forced to cut academic programs. So, please try again with a real argument not JUST simple minded insults you pass off as debating skills. Bill O' Reilly will sue for copyright infringement.
That was a bit long, but people who think their arguments are so intelligent and witty are the most fun to break down and analyze with evil evil logic.
And for my final move, I lay a trap card face down on the field.
- theoriginalaks, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1Your argument equates to no solutions, or even anything anything of substance, just tiny little straw-mans.
- Lavarock, on 06/15/2008, -1/+9I was under the impression fostering the leaders of tomorrow and promoting the countries brightest individuals was not dependent on the dollar amount in a school's coffers, but I am sorry! Your school (if you have one) is most likely receiving more money than it ever has but who gives a ***** when their performance is dropping nonetheless?
- jgzman, on 06/15/2008, -1/+5If you want more money for the government, and you don't want to cut programs, taxes must go up.
Personally, I'd say cut funding to the millitary. The current war costs a huge pile of money, (that we don't have) and seems to be accomplishing nothing. - macweirdo42, on 06/15/2008, -1/+3In the same way that welfare is compared to robbery, I think, so too can you compare the conservative approach of cutting taxes without cutting spending to ordering an expensive meal at a restaurant, and then ducking out before the bill comes.
- positron, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2That's the Republican approach, NOT the conservative approach.
- SQLserver, on 06/15/2008, -1/+2***** you, and all the other lazy assholes who cannot pay a few ***** dollars for the country.
I'm not saying free health care and college(like they have in the best countries in the world, the Socialist ones), but at least a few ***** dollars.
Republicans are voted in on laziness, greed, and fear. Thanks for showing the lazy and greedy part.- x252, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1Oh man, the socialist countries are the best in the world?
Stand back guys, extreme liberal bias here.
- x252, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1Oh man, the socialist countries are the best in the world?
- dtfinch, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Take the record taxes we're already collecting and spend it wisely.
- theoriginalaks, on 06/15/2008, -7/+15I was under the impression fostering the leaders of tomorrow and promoting the countries brightest individuals was worth a few of everyone's dollars, but I am sorry! Your kids (if you have them) are not most likely not gifted who so gives a ***** about those who are, what they can do for the future, or anything else as long as it does not mean you have to care about anything enough to spend money on it. Remember, right now is what counts, tomorrow is for the hippies!
- Joetwopointoh, on 06/15/2008, -2/+40Federal mandates seem to bring everything down to the lowest common denominator. Is this desirable?
- JimmySpaza, on 06/15/2008, -2/+17No, but don't tell the big government types that (both Democrat and Republican).
This is the problem with one-size-fits-all government programs at the federal level. And this is why the Founding Fathers made sure that the federal government would only involve itself in a few programs and nothing else. All else, per the 10th Amendment, is reserved for the States to do as they see fit.
...but, like I said, don't tell the big government politicians that.
- JimmySpaza, on 06/15/2008, -2/+17No, but don't tell the big government types that (both Democrat and Republican).
- kc23266, on 06/15/2008, -7/+68We could start by eliminating useless things like Student Council and proms.
- theoriginalaks, on 06/15/2008, -4/+37Prom is an excellent tradition, but yes, the student council is worthless. My school has elaborate speeches on giant screen's for people running for student council, I have always wanted to run just so I could thank the Devil for helping me win. (because as in everything else, people ALWAYS thank God or Jesus for helping them win)
Jesus is a flip-flopper who can not decide who to back, the Devil will give you his 100% support.- Kanidia, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1Prom is also a waste of money. Some people will disagree/digg me down but seriously, who gives a ***** that you graduated High School? Sure it may mean that 80% of your graduating class no longer has to study, but what about the people who continue on in University? High School means nothing in your future, and isn't a big deal at all. You may argue that a Prom is a good way to meet your friends for the last time, and that it's a once in a lifetime experience. However, there are University graduations, there are probably better more fancy parties awaiting most of us in the future. You can meet with your current friends any time, there's no need to waste government EDUCATION money on it.
It doesn't have to be a tradition. A graduation ceremony is probably enough for High School. Sooner or later people will want Proms for graduation in middle school and elementary school. It's really not necessary because it's so trivial.
If anything, the student council should be the reputable competitive society between high schools. But no, we don't live in a country with a majority of intellectuals, so people believe that the more fancy the Prom is the better your school is.
- Kanidia, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1Prom is also a waste of money. Some people will disagree/digg me down but seriously, who gives a ***** that you graduated High School? Sure it may mean that 80% of your graduating class no longer has to study, but what about the people who continue on in University? High School means nothing in your future, and isn't a big deal at all. You may argue that a Prom is a good way to meet your friends for the last time, and that it's a once in a lifetime experience. However, there are University graduations, there are probably better more fancy parties awaiting most of us in the future. You can meet with your current friends any time, there's no need to waste government EDUCATION money on it.
- only1earth, on 06/15/2008, -20/+1Student council teaches students valuable leadership and social skills.
- kc23266, on 06/15/2008, -0/+24Actually, it teaches them how to be self-important ***** who want to see their name and face posted everywhere. Very few of them are members because they want to do any good. It's all politics.
- JimmySpaza, on 06/15/2008, -0/+17On paper, yes. In reality, no. I've never seen student leaders hanging out and being social with ALL the students. They simply congregate amongst the popular types.
And leadership skills? Please. Leadership is all about getting people to do things, and want to do things, because you believe it is the best thing to do. How can anyone do this is they only hang out with people like themselves (per above)?
- vinnyvenus, on 06/15/2008, -10/+4Just cause you didn't had the guts to ask a girl to prom doesn't mean it should be eliminated. Also how are students going to practice " Safe Sex" if prom is eliminated?
Prom is a one night event for which student has to pay in the form of tickets, so I don't think it will make a dent in school budget if it was to be eliminated.- kc23266, on 06/15/2008, -3/+1Athletic events cost tickets too, although not as much as the $80 smackers it costs to attend prom.
- SydBarrett420, on 06/15/2008, -9/+3Actually they have recently shown that those that participate in student government and drama clubs usually have a higher earning percentage as adults.
- JimmySpaza, on 06/15/2008, -3/+8Correlation is NOT causation. There are literally thousands of factors going on in those kids' lives. The fact that they got elected to some student council and wore makeup on a stage doesn't mean what you might think it means.
- SydBarrett420, on 06/15/2008, -8/+4LOL idiot, when did I say anything about what I think? I am just relaying the fact that a recent study contradicted what the OP stated. Learn some comprehension skills retard.
- LuxFX, on 06/15/2008, -3/+32Forget student council and proms. You could start by eliminating extracurricular sports. But noooo... There's no way a school would drop sports, which helps prepare 0.001% of all students for later in life, because it brings in money to the school. Instead they'll start dropping the education programs that would give students a leg up before entering college.
I heard a quote once, can't remember who said it: (paraphrase) "If pharmaceutical and medical research companies courted students in the same way that sports teams do, offering fame and $20 million contracts, we would have cured cancer ten years ago."- Bologner, on 06/15/2008, -4/+5Sometimes sports is just to help make and keep you fit and that is important for good health.
- adam07, on 06/15/2008, -1/+2Sports are a healthy way for students to occupy their free time. Also, 100% of our soccer team went to college, which was very good for a small, rural school where half our class DIDN'T go to college. A lot the gifted programs seem pretty useless, I would get rid of them before getting rid of sports.
- Nidy1, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3I don't think it's necessary to eliminate sports completely, that's just stupid. Just stop throwing so much money into it and treat athletes like everyone else.
- slightlygifted, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1a lot of high school athletes get scholarships to college they wouldnt be able to get any other way.
- Kanidia, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1I disagree that sports should be eliminated, but I absolutely agree that less funding should be implemented. The student body shouldn't have to pay taxes if they choose not to do sports. Same with math clubs, chess clubs or any nerdy thing either. Extracurricular should not be part of the school's funding received from the government. More money should be spent on the quality of the education.
- positron, on 06/15/2008, -0/+4But without the Future Bureaucrats of America council how would we foster our next generation of government stooges?
- vision777, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1I don't think these things are anywhere near as costly as gifted programs.
- DanQuist, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3Student Council's and Prom's are almost always funded separately from government aid. Instead they use revenue they get from activities they host.
- theoriginalaks, on 06/15/2008, -4/+37Prom is an excellent tradition, but yes, the student council is worthless. My school has elaborate speeches on giant screen's for people running for student council, I have always wanted to run just so I could thank the Devil for helping me win. (because as in everything else, people ALWAYS thank God or Jesus for helping them win)
- pstroll, on 06/15/2008, -19/+3Digg rode the short bus
- belcorriko, on 06/15/2008, -1/+49From Harrison Bergeron, "The year was 2081, and everyone was finally equal."
This is just how it starts...- senkmajer, on 06/15/2008, -0/+8If anybody want to find this, it is in a collection of short stoiries called "Welcome to the Monkey House"
It can also be found online lots of places, like here:
http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/stelmo/248/h ...
it's about a 10 minute read. This story should be ready and discussed by everybody in their *civics* classes, not their lit. classes- Kanidia, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1That's not the full story:
I found another link, I hope this is right: http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html
- Kanidia, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1That's not the full story:
- Apocalyptic0n3, on 06/15/2008, -0/+5You have no idea how much I wanted to come into this thread and post something relating to that story. It fits perfectly. Good story, too btw.
- SSYe, on 06/15/2008, -0/+5Fittingly, this was ninth-grade required reading for me.
- senkmajer, on 06/15/2008, -0/+8If anybody want to find this, it is in a collection of short stoiries called "Welcome to the Monkey House"
- amida, on 06/15/2008, -3/+40"''Rural districts like us, we've been *literally* bleeding to death,' said Gary Tyrrell, assistant superintendent of the Mountain Grove School District...."
I don't find this quote very promising for the educational standards there.- Acglaphotis, on 06/15/2008, -2/+19I don't think he knows what literal means.
- Stavrosian, on 06/15/2008, -0/+29"Literally" has to be the most misused word in the English language today.
- kc23266, on 06/15/2008, -0/+14Literally!
- bravo1995, on 06/15/2008, -0/+11I literally foam from the mouth with anger when people use that word incorrectly.
- BlueSkyfish, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3Maybe the district is an abandoned zerg base. Ever consider that?
- redassassin7, on 06/15/2008, -2/+1starcraft ftw!
- tweetsa, on 06/15/2008, -2/+53it's really a shame because I truly think almost all of the low achieving pupils can't be helped. I say this because I was one of those low achieving pupils. I didn't care about school, I was more interested in doing fun stuff after school. I did just barely enough to graduate high school.
It wasn't until I got out of high school and worked ***** jobs for a few years that I realized I really ***** up. I smartened up and went back to school, got my high school grades up and I am going to college for engineering this fall.
To hold back the gifted students who do care is tragic in every sense of the word. I guess it will help a select few though, my best-friend from my child hood was a terrible student, was in the slow class and everything. He moved away, got help from his new school, became an an honor student and is entering veterinary school this fall.- SydBarrett420, on 06/15/2008, -4/+3They're not supposed to be "helped". They are supposed to be processed to work as an automatons in adult life. All this was laid out a long time ago when we adopted the Prussian education model.
- 4everMoore, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1I was in the gifted class for a couple years when I was in elementary. I feel that I learned more in those couple hours a day than I did in a whole week of regular classes. Then my family moved down South and that was the end of the gifted classes. And I feel that it changed my course in life, too. I know that sounds like an excuse but I KNOW it had a real affect on my education.
- tegulizard13, on 06/15/2008, -0/+25I had been in a gifted program since the 4th grade here in Rockford, Illinois, and graduated from the program in 2007. Before I graduated, the district went to hell, and I witnessed many of the great teachers of the program, who were also wonderful AP teachers, leave. I was in the middle of the wave, the physics teacher and the calculus teacher left the year before I had them, and the Econ, Psych, Chemistry, English/Latin, and History/Social Sciences teachers left soon after I graduated (1 or two years after). I was able to watch this crippling process, and fully expect my high school to be audited within the next 3 or 4 years.
- vinnyvenus, on 06/15/2008, -20/+13They need to cut funding for "ESL'. It was the most expensive program when I was in school. Seriously though, ESL students should learn English language at their own expense. Also, how come we let all these people in our country who have no understanding of basic English language?
- wrathchilde, on 06/15/2008, -1/+16"US" versus "THEM" is not the concept on which this nation was founded. The primary objective of public education is to provide the basic capability to participate in, and contribute to, society. Language is the most fundamental skill required to do so.
Many of our ancestors, five generations for me, came here without the necessary language skills. It is truly disappointing that my generation would turn its back on the people who will make the future. - sheetrock, on 06/15/2008, -1/+9Please look up "E Pluribus Unum" on Google.
- tokyokevin, on 06/15/2008, -1/+11The immigrants have been saving our bacon since before the revolutionary war. Wave after wave of non-English speakers come, learn contribute, succeed and stay. And pay taxes. Haver you checked out university enrollment figures (and faculty numbers) lately? Especially in the hard sciences. Disproportionately foreign born. We need these people to remain competitive. ESL is just one way to keep them from learning and going home.
- Lavarock, on 06/15/2008, -6/+7No, instead they stay and send money back home. There are a fair number of countries whose economies actually rely primarily or secondarily on checks sent back by citizens working in America.
- Belldanime, on 06/15/2008, -0/+6The whole 'sending money back' is just a stereotype, dear. My family came over here and we don't send a dime back. The reason behind that is very simple. It was not my mom's obligation to support her brothers, sisters and parents. They were all very much grown up and could have come here to make their fortune if they so desired. Most of them did, for those that didn't, they found a way to make a living anyway.
- secrity, on 06/15/2008, -2/+5My Norwegian and German immigrant relatives taught themselves English, it was one of their top priorities both before they left the mother land and after they arrived in the US.
- Belldanime, on 06/15/2008, -0/+4I think the ESL program would cater more to those who are not very old, like elementary school students.
Children can't exactly read in their own language when they're in kinder, how are they gonna teach themselves another language? Besides, there's no discipline in someone that old to begin with. Sure, the parents can help them stay on track but if they don't know any English themselves, then it's not going to help that much.
- Belldanime, on 06/15/2008, -0/+4I think the ESL program would cater more to those who are not very old, like elementary school students.
- Lavarock, on 06/15/2008, -6/+7No, instead they stay and send money back home. There are a fair number of countries whose economies actually rely primarily or secondarily on checks sent back by citizens working in America.
- jgzman, on 06/15/2008, -1/+8Why ESL? It's teaching something that the student didn't know before, something that the student needs in his adult life. Why not Math? Why not Reading?
And why should we not let in people who have no basic understanding of English? I was unaware that spoken language was a deciding factor in these things.- ElectroBot, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1I came to Canada in grade 3 (speaking only German and Polish). In grade 4 I was offered the option to attend ESL and I told them no. It was a "blemish" to attend it and within that one year of learning English, I was able to communicate quite well and actually scored top of my class in spelling.
ESL should be gotten rid of. It teaches people to learn English but at a much slower rate than having the people be immersed in it in the classroom and the playground. Quite a lot of the people who took ESL had a weaker grasp on the language (than those who were just thrown in there) for quite a while. Some still do.- Belldanime, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2I know what you mean, because I had a similar experience. I came here when I was 3, so I don't even remember not knowing how to speak English. When you're young, learning a new language is far easier than when you're older. I think a 6th grader or an 8th grader would have more trouble than we did. I know some that came to the US at that age and they still have an accent and I still have a far better grasp on the language than they do.
6th grade was 1999 for me, do the math. - jgzman, on 06/16/2008, -0/+2While I agree, not all people learn the same way. Personally, I would love a few years of formalized education before being thrown into the mix.
However the option to take or not to take sounds like a good idea.
- Belldanime, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2I know what you mean, because I had a similar experience. I came here when I was 3, so I don't even remember not knowing how to speak English. When you're young, learning a new language is far easier than when you're older. I think a 6th grader or an 8th grader would have more trouble than we did. I know some that came to the US at that age and they still have an accent and I still have a far better grasp on the language than they do.
- ElectroBot, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1I came to Canada in grade 3 (speaking only German and Polish). In grade 4 I was offered the option to attend ESL and I told them no. It was a "blemish" to attend it and within that one year of learning English, I was able to communicate quite well and actually scored top of my class in spelling.
- gryphon50, on 06/15/2008, -2/+8but they won't learn English on their own, not if they go home to a household that speaks another language. And their family may not have the resources to have them tutored.
- Louis11, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Don't be ignorant, in most cases they will end up being bilingual. A lot of my friends grew up in Spanish speaking households, came to school and learned English . . . all without the help of a tutor.
- Belldanime, on 06/15/2008, -0/+8What makes anyone of you think that I want to go back to Mexico? I grew up here, my family is here, I was in a gifted program, I've known English since I came here and I honestly have no interest, or future, in Mexico. I think I speak for a LOT of immigrants when I say that I do NOT want to go back to any country and I do NOT send any money to anyone there. Hasn't anyone here thought that perhaps it's all just a stereotype? I'm not gonna argue that there are several people who do it, but the majority of us prefer to not do it because we have no one to send money to. Specially if we grew up here. My mom didn't grow up here, but she doesn't do it either because her family is grown up enough to do things there. Mexico is bad, but it's not THAT bad. At least people there are citizens and they're treated as so. You can call the police if something happens(corrupt as they be) without fear of deportation and stuff. And while the minimum wage there is *****, you still have your citizen rights which they're completely stripped of the minute they lay a foot here.
One thing I will admit is that I honestly do not know how I learned English, since I was very young. I just remember already knowing how to speak it. I think I was like 3 when I came over, I went to preschool, kinder, and everything else and I never had a hard time with it. It must have been that I was surrounded by people that did speak it, though. When you're that young, learning a new language is a piece of cake. I do remember that my teachers and most of the students were bilingual, though. And I'm pretty sure that helped. I speak English just as well as any of you do, with no foreign accent. And on the intertubes, I tend to be very critical of my spelling, grammar, etc. Not for any particular reason, though. All in all, I considered myself an American, I always did. Even before I got my citizenship. I will always be an American.- regeya, on 06/15/2008, -0/+5Well said. It saddens me to realize that most white Americans don't realize they're descendents of immigrants, while most of the Mexicans coming here are more or less native, making them far more "American" than the average white American. Just try explaining that to the average fascist "conservative" without risking the wrath of a pissed-off redneck, though.
- Belldanime, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3Ooooh, I tried that once in high school. "Well, considering I have native blood, doesn't that mean I'm slightly more American than you?" What followed was a rampage of "white people made this country what it is" blah, blah, blah. Yeah, by pissing on everybody else. First it was the natives, then it was themselves, then the blacks, then the Irish, then the Italians, then the Mexicans, then I lost track and now the Middle Easters. Sounds like a big game of tag to me. You're it! When anybody reminds them of it, they're like "Oh, it's in the past. We're all white and pure now. Those days are over so don't remind me of them."
- regeya, on 06/15/2008, -0/+5Well said. It saddens me to realize that most white Americans don't realize they're descendents of immigrants, while most of the Mexicans coming here are more or less native, making them far more "American" than the average white American. Just try explaining that to the average fascist "conservative" without risking the wrath of a pissed-off redneck, though.
- wrathchilde, on 06/15/2008, -1/+16"US" versus "THEM" is not the concept on which this nation was founded. The primary objective of public education is to provide the basic capability to participate in, and contribute to, society. Language is the most fundamental skill required to do so.
- Turbojugend27, on 06/15/2008, -3/+108Unlimited money for war, yet very tight budgets for education. Makes total sense.
- vinnyvenus, on 06/15/2008, -7/+3Schools are funded locally not federally.
- masamunecyrus, on 06/15/2008, -0/+19Tell that to No Child Left Behind.
- JimmySpaza, on 06/15/2008, -0/+12Many schools get their funding indirectly from the federal government through the states via federal programs as long as the states do what the federal government wants.
- logosx1, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2They should be funded only locally, since the feds cannot duplicate the functions of the States (see Tenth Amendment). But they don't teach that anymore, either.
- BestJaxx, on 06/15/2008, -1/+3It's more important to kill people than to promote intelligence.
- joshblufs, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2Hows that bumper sticker go
it will be a great day when schools have all the money they need and the air force has to hold a bake sale to buy a bomber. - Tryptomine, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Makes perfect sense, you're going to be killed anyway, pissing money away on that fancy education would just be a waste.
(/sarcasm, by the way)
- vinnyvenus, on 06/15/2008, -7/+3Schools are funded locally not federally.
- larryk12308, on 06/15/2008, -4/+49"No child left behind"
Another reason to hate the Bush administration.- JimmySpaza, on 06/15/2008, -8/+4Yeah, like Congress had NOTHING to do with that. You can only blame the President for 50% of the legislation that gets signed. The other 50% of blame goes to Congress. They are the ones that wrote the law in the first place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind_ ...
"In 2007, Congress significantly increased federal funding of education, from 42.2 billion in 2001 to $54.4 billion in 2007)."- BlueSkyfish, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1Increasing federal funding was a good thing.
- JimmySpaza, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1Not if the program is unconstitutional to begin with.
- BlueSkyfish, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1Increasing federal funding was a good thing.
- 4everMoore, on 06/15/2008, -2/+1G-Dub was one of those "left behind" kids. LOL
- JimmySpaza, on 06/15/2008, -8/+4Yeah, like Congress had NOTHING to do with that. You can only blame the President for 50% of the legislation that gets signed. The other 50% of blame goes to Congress. They are the ones that wrote the law in the first place.
- btraxx, on 06/15/2008, -10/+3"I beat the smart kids, I beat the smart kids! *falls* I bent my wookie."
- Duncster, on 06/15/2008, -17/+1Survival of the fittest. All that needs to be said.
- afflusso, on 06/15/2008, -2/+14This is from 2004, but it still holds true. Districts should not be cutting these classes. They are the most valuable classes a school can have. If kids are struggling in with basic schooling, they should go back on the farms to work instead of burdening the district with special classes. From my experience, these struggling students usually aren't trying, and when they get 'extra help' they don't improve much (the exception being some immigrants).
- sodade, on 06/15/2008, -9/+4I moved around a lot as a kid (military family). Every school I went to, they tried putting me in gifted programs - I wanted nothing to do with those "pick on me please kids." I spent most of my time in school pretending to be dumb so that my classmates would accept me. I learned to despise school because it was so ***** boring and easy. I stopped doing any kind of homework - ***** them. I still got passing grades because I could get an A on any test I felt like it. Dropping out at 16 and working fast food did the trick for me. I went to community college and quickly transferred to Berkeley. I ended up dropping out before getting a philosophy degree because I realized that it wasn't going to get me anywhere I wanted to be. Again, dropping out was the best thing that happened to me. I don't really have a point, but I sure wish that it was cool to be smart when I was a kid...
- thuang513, on 06/15/2008, -4/+2sounds almost just like Steve Jobs in his commencement speech at Stanford...especially the "dropping out was the best thing that happened..."
- bty2047, on 06/15/2008, -0/+10you're gifted and went for an arts degree. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH - cartman voice
- sodade, on 06/15/2008, -3/+1Umm - that's why I dropped out. I realized that a Liberal Arts education didn't mean ***** in the real world.
- Mothrog, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1If you were as smart as you claim to be, Mr. Mitty, you would have realized that a philosophy degree wouldn't get you a damn thing without having to spend time in college to come to that realization.
- sodade, on 06/15/2008, -3/+1Umm - that's why I dropped out. I realized that a Liberal Arts education didn't mean ***** in the real world.
- MillionsLivio, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2So you tried to make yourself look "dumb" to not get into a gifted program and be accepted, yet you were bored and wanted to be challenged. You should have gone into the gifted program, and then you would have seen how much it stimulated you and you wouldn't have cared about what other kids think. Honestly, I was in a gifted class for many years through school and it was by far the best thing that ever happened to me. I had the best teacher I ever had (and most likely will ever have), she taught me so many life lessons that would have taken me many years of struggling just to learn, if ever. She taught us all how to how to efficiently think for ourselves, not what to think, as the school system tries to do. I'm currently 17, in college while finishing high school on the side, and well on my way to accomplishing my goals--which at one point I thought were unrealistic. You rejected all of that just to fit in with kids you will never meet again in your life. Now live without a point and you think that was the best thing that happened to you? I pity you...
- sodade, on 06/15/2008, -2/+1I wasn't trying to say that it was a good thing that I felt I needed to act as dumb as my peers so that I would be accepted. That's why dropping out of the system and making my own way in this life was the only viable option I felt I had. Also, I didn't say my life today has no point.
- GordonClass, on 06/15/2008, -5/+26Without the bottom 3% where would the next far right come from?
- JimmySpaza, on 06/15/2008, -11/+4Without the bottom 3%, where would the next generation of Thinkprogress, DailyKos, and other liberal wackos come from?
See, I can do it too. :-)- nycmac247, on 06/15/2008, -2/+3Next time you'll brag about how you have never needed a passport or taken a language class, right?
- JimmySpaza, on 06/15/2008, -11/+4Without the bottom 3%, where would the next generation of Thinkprogress, DailyKos, and other liberal wackos come from?
- only1earth, on 06/15/2008, -0/+16Our nation's future depends on having well educated students. What are we to become without a good education?
- regeya, on 06/15/2008, -1/+2That's what's so troubling about the Libertarian goal of doing away with public education. Not everyone believes that we must either continue with the Prussian model, or that without our education system, there would be no divisions. I mean, please; you're telling me there were no class divisions before the early 1900s? If you think so, maybe you really ARE dumb.
What I've seen and learned from people who work in public education is that the major problems are an overemphasis on extracurricular activities such as sports, an overemphasis on standardized testing, an overemphasis on homogenized, one-size-fits-all curriculum, and MOST of all, a total lack of cooperation and even interest shown by parents, who would rather have their children's education entirely in the hands of the teachers, while wanting (and getting) a strong voice in the governance of the school via the school board.
Take away the standardized testing and the overemphasis on teaching to the lowest common denominator (this means, among other things, KEEPING special ed and gifted programs) and simultaneously make it mandatory that parents participate while taking the administrative aspect of the school AWAY from the school board, and that's a start.
But this movement to do away with public education at a time when most parents don't give a damn about their kids, and at a time when the gap between American kids and kids around the world is growing, is naive at best and damned stupid if you ask me.
- regeya, on 06/15/2008, -1/+2That's what's so troubling about the Libertarian goal of doing away with public education. Not everyone believes that we must either continue with the Prussian model, or that without our education system, there would be no divisions. I mean, please; you're telling me there were no class divisions before the early 1900s? If you think so, maybe you really ARE dumb.
- spdorsey, on 06/15/2008, -4/+18My daughter is starting school next year. I plan to spend time with her every day to make sure that she is ahead of her class and to help her have the advantages she needs to get into a good high school or university when the time comes.
I don't need the state or my local school district to give my kids advanced classes or programs because I'll take on the responsibility myself. I think that is my duty as a parent. I wish more parents thought this way. It would help the kids far more than an "advanced program" could.- Stavrosian, on 06/15/2008, -0/+17Bully for you, and of course parents should try to take an active role in their child's development, but it doesn't excuse schools from their responsibility to challenge their students academically.
- spdorsey, on 06/15/2008, -2/+4As much as I agree with you, I also know that funding for schools will really only take one direction: down. It's a reality that will not change. I'm just accepting that fact and moving on.
I'm just compensating by doing what I believe every good parent should do. It is much more difficult for a child to succeed when their parents do not take an active role in their education.- spdorsey, on 06/15/2008, -0/+4How in hell did I get dugg down for supporting my daughter? Jeez!
- lisaawesome, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1People are crazy spdorsey. On behalf of the non-crazies thank you for being a good parent. My mom always provided me with extra materials to improve my education at home. She really put me on a good path, and I am incredibly grateful for her. I'm sure your daughter will feel the same way one day.
- spdorsey, on 06/15/2008, -2/+4As much as I agree with you, I also know that funding for schools will really only take one direction: down. It's a reality that will not change. I'm just accepting that fact and moving on.
- Panthersong, on 06/15/2008, -0/+17I did the same with my kids at home -- even taught (as a volunteer) at their school to provide subjects they weren't getting due to budget cuts. Unless you home school your daughter completely, however, she will still have to sit in a classroom and be bored to death while the teacher tries to leave no child behind, no matter how slow that child is, and she will be teased for being bright and will perhaps grow to hate school because it's so boring. Having classes for bright kids that allow them to excel and grow together isn't a "nice to have" -- it's a must have. Let's educate our best and brightest first, and hope the rest can keep up.
- spdorsey, on 06/15/2008, -0/+8My sister home schools two of her three kids. They are smart and well-educated.
I think your "harass the smart kid" behavior is probably more prevalent with boys than girls. That being said, it's all part of the social game that she'll have to learn eventually anyway. I won't over-protect her just because other kids think she's smart.
I'll never home school because I have to work, and because I think that (for better or worse) the school environment teaches kids things about behaving socially that they'll never learn by being home schooled.- lisaawesome, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2I was never teased in school for being smart. In fact I never knew anyone who was picked on for being smart. Probably about half of my high school was in at least one honors or AP class so being smart wasn't that out of the norm. We had a huge number of national merit scholars and high average ACT scores. So maybe we were a nerdy school to begin with. The only thing I can remember people being picked on was for being gay. Damn near everyone who was a little weird got the gay label so even that really didn't hurt anyone. High school was a great place to learn how to manipulate people for my own gain. That knowledge has been very helpful when dealing with bosses/supervisors.
- spdorsey, on 06/15/2008, -0/+8My sister home schools two of her three kids. They are smart and well-educated.
- Rodalli, on 06/15/2008, -1/+16Please don't push her too hard. Don't be that parent.
- spdorsey, on 06/15/2008, -0/+4Never. She loves to learn, but (if she's like me) she'll never learn if she's not enjoying it.
I graduated high school late with a 2.2 GPA. Now I'm working at $100K/year with no college degree. Anything is possible.
- spdorsey, on 06/15/2008, -0/+4Never. She loves to learn, but (if she's like me) she'll never learn if she's not enjoying it.
- sarcasticmango, on 06/15/2008, -0/+8But that means you're giving your district's schools the right to be mediocre without reprimands. What is your daughter gonna do during school then? Every school day will seem as slow as molasses for her.
Plus, even though you may have the resources to enrich your daughter (and good for you), what about the children whose parents have no idea how to do so? Or don't have the resources because they're low-income, and work from forever until forever?
- spdorsey, on 06/15/2008, -0/+5First: I'm not using a lack of funding as an excuse to get my daughter ahead on the backs of less-privileged kids. I want to make that clear.
No school district has the right to be mediocre. (Actually, about 33% of them have the right to exist in the mean, but that's not the same thing). I'm enough of a realist to know that there are certain realities that are beyond a school district's control. Budget is one of them. I'll vote for every measure that puts money in the district's coffers. I'll donate to the school and give at bake sales as much as I can.
But a lot of it falls on the parent's shoulders. I grew up without my parent's help in school. They took a "let school take care of him" approach, and I will not let that happen to my daughter. We will find a happy medium between over-care and under-support (I hope that makes sense).
As for other kids, I cannot be responsible for the decisions that their parents make. There are low-income and international families that lack resources to help their kids get ahead in class. But for every underprivileged kid who wasn't doing well that I knew in my public school youth, there was another who had supportive parents and who went farther because of it.
Support doesn't mean you need to teach your kid Calculus, it just means that you give your child confidence and that you want them to be more than you could be.
- spdorsey, on 06/15/2008, -0/+5First: I'm not using a lack of funding as an excuse to get my daughter ahead on the backs of less-privileged kids. I want to make that clear.
- gryphon50, on 06/15/2008, -0/+6it's good you're putting the effort in. I'm not sure what to do with my son, I have been working with him alot his whole life- not pushing, just reading, and his reading level is so advanced (he just turned 4) that I'm not sure what is going to happen to him in kindergarten since I assume they will just be teaching him letters. In fact he is trying to read this comment I'm writing now.
- spdorsey, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2That's awesome! You go, Dad!!!
I'm experiencing a similar situation with my daughter and math.
I am trying to start her in Kindergarten, but her birthday is December 25, and Dec 1 is the cut-off for school. They make no exceptions. That really sucks for her. She'll be 1/2 year behind when she's probably really 1 year ahead.
I'll just work within the system and try to have her skip a grade early on. - Louis11, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1My parents did the same with me. While they where teaching letters in Kindergarten my teacher told me to go read a book. A few weeks later I asked her what I should do, having finished the work she gave me. She again told me to go read a book . . . then I informed her that I had read them all, so I ended up drawing the rest of the year (or taking trips to the library). But in short, it helped me out a lot. I attribute all of my success (I'm an engineering student now) to my parents, not my public education.
- spdorsey, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2That's awesome! You go, Dad!!!
- regeya, on 06/15/2008, -0/+5You just hit the nail on the head on what's wrong with public education. It's not just public education that's broken; it's also parenting in America which is horribly broken.
At my wife's last gig, the sheer number of parents who would drop their kids off for an extracurricular school concert and go home to "watch my stories" was appalling. We won't get into just how often teachers at that district had to report abuse to DCFS, either.- lisaawesome, on 06/15/2008, -1/+3My mom is an intercity high school math teacher and I absolutely believe the difference between her students and the kids I went to school with in a rich suburban school district was
- Stavrosian, on 06/15/2008, -0/+17Bully for you, and of course parents should try to take an active role in their child's development, but it doesn't excuse schools from their responsibility to challenge their students academically.