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Microsoft clarifies Vista activation - you got 10 goes, geek

bit-tech.net — A spokesperson from MS' Licensing Dept says Vista enthusiasts get 10 activations (which will kick in if you swap the hard drive and another component) before things start to get tricky. More details on what this could mean to geeks.

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  • marcz, on 10/12/2007, -4/+50Atleast they don't declare it pirated right away.
    • Snowcone, on 10/12/2007, -33/+4Agreed.
    • ajb2015, on 10/12/2007, -12/+46What this means for geeks is that I will be looking forward to downloading the corporate edition as soon as it becomes available. I hate ***** around with "activations". If I buy software, I want to be able to use it without worrying that I have gone over my "limit". So, once again, they will have driven me towards piracy. And don't think I just want a free copy, I bought every version of windows up until XP.
    • Phatt138, on 10/12/2007, -3/+26Tom - Well, it depends on how often you change out parts, and the extent to which you do so. Being a DIYer who doesn't mind plopping down a little cash to keep abreast (heh), I find this pretty intolerable. Hardware issues aside, formatting a reinstalling is what keeps me from accumulating endless gigs of leftover data. I've reinstalled XP so many times that I know my 25-digit code by heart.

      Unless Vista somehow eliminates the need for system maintenance (I even format my Mac every 4 or 5 months - nothing beats a fresh install, period.), which I sincerely doubt that it does, this is ridiculous.

      Most ironic of all is the fact that Microsoft's selling Vista as the next-gen platform for games and other forms of entertainment - gamers and technophiles are the people who MOST need reinstallation capability. They've got everything completely ass-backwards! It's like the crappy SonicWall program that my college network uses - it keeps average users from getting viruses and becoming zombies, but negatively impacts those who wish to run various OSs from the same MAC address and are versed in tech; in other words, the only people that it causes any frustration for are the people least likely to need its protection! Sigh.
    • nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8sorry ajb but the corporate versions will require an "activation server", so no more corporate pirated versions of windows floating around activation-free.

      after vista's released and I have time to try it out a little, i might buy it. as far as windows at home my only use for it is testing websites in IE, so staying with XP where I can run IE6 is a must for now. man I can't wait till the millions of existing XP boxes are trashed and upgraded ... no more IE6, the thought brings a geeky tear to my eye.

      for all the crap MS is getting about activation (which I think is a dumb idea, but it's their choice and their market so they basically set the rules, and people have to follow them if they're not willing to switch) and delaying the release, and for all the crap I've ever said bad about MS, I am actually excited for Vista. Except for a couple months of work this summer I've been using linux and mac os x exclusively since 2003, but I'm still excited. Not only to see if Vista is everything they promise, but because IE versions below 7 don't have a chance in hell of running on Vista. praise the lord and all his noodly appendages.
    • webcrumb, on 10/12/2007, -9/+2You know, MS could score by simply allowing people to download a version direct from them. Call it Vista Basic (or Vista Pirate Edition if you want). Of course, you have to register for the download with your Passport and receive "upgrade" emails every so often, but hell, it's free and you can use it to play games. You are emailed a unique installation key, so activation isn't a problem. You also receive special pricing for a download of MS Office 2007 (probably the Education version).

      OEMs are unaffected, normal consumers are unaffected (who is going to download a 4GB DVD image?), but not only is piracy virtually wiped out, thousands more people buy Office thereby maintaining two monopolies. Why move to Linux when you can get the "real thing" for free? Why else do you think they have a six-month trial of Windows Server 2003 Enterprise sitting on their website for download?
    • leobaby, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12The activation for my legitimate copy of XP Professional (retail) expired after a hardware upgrade - not after a re-install. A piece of software that has never existed on two computers at once; a piece of software that I paid full box price for stopped working altogether. Internet activation no longer worked. An hour of fighting telephone activation and I was able to use MY computer again.

      I feel that since I paid for the software, it should continue to function on at that one computer until I decide to stop using it; I could care less if they start charge me for support.


      I consider myself not so evil when it comes to software. I'm probably going to buy vista for my desktop system. But as soon as I see the corporate version available online, I'm gonna get that too because I know that one day I'm going to be locked out of a product I paid full price for and have never pirated.

      I'm not a pirate, but treat me like one and I'll act like one.
    • 23r17i05o42n, on 10/12/2007, -10/+2Oh great. 10 times to infect a computer with the world's largest virus!
    • mementh, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I bought a copy of windows 95.. I have a copy of windows XP.. IMHO if you buy a operating system you have it. Windows 98 was a Bugfix to windows 95. Windows 2k was a MAJOR BUGFIX and almost was what BG promised us with windows 95. Windows XP is still not 100% of what windows 95 was promised to be. (in fact windows 98 and XP both forced in code that has downgraded windows)

      So.. until they get what windows 95 promised (a stable reliable OS that is easy to use.. (this means no activation or WGA)) I wont buy windows vista.

      Though i am more likely now to go to a Linux flavor now since its FREE and gives what it promises.
  • nullvector, on 10/12/2007, -42/+25And then they wonder why people pirate it.
    • billisdog, on 10/12/2007, -24/+67Oh shut up. People pirate software because people are inherently cheap and getting something for free is infinitely easier than paying for it. The ratio of people who are pirating to save $200 vs. people who are pirating to make some moral statement has to be > 99% - 1%.

      Remember, people pirate software all the time from nice, well-intentioned, non-evil mom'n'pop software shops. Just cause they aren't satan incarnate doesn't mean they don't get pirated just as hard.
    • Roger, on 10/12/2007, -15/+91I actually own a legal copy of Windows XP, but I prefer using my pirated copy.

      Not sure what my point is, just wanted to mention that.
    • thespace, on 10/12/2007, -21/+13@billisdog - not true. Ease of aquireability is the highest factor. Some people are just to lazy to run down to the store and pick up a copy. Note that the movie industry now considers p2p as a legitimate business 'competitor'. When Microsoft starts thinking as piracy and p2p as a 'competitor' is the day we'll all be better off. I can imagine an OS where you pay a small amount of money per quarter to upgrade your system over the net using a bit torrent type model. Then people will be more willing to pay for short update bursts that are cheaper than buying a whole OS.
    • Sirocco, on 10/12/2007, -4/+62>> I actually own a legal copy of Windows XP, but I prefer using my pirated copy.

      Same here. I have a perfectly legal copy of XP professional, but due to the WPA component malfunctioning every few months I just gave up and inistalled a corporate version with a generated key. Problem solved; and to be frank I don't give a damn if you people care to go all holier than thou on me. MS ***** me over with their idiotic attempt at copy protection and I made the problem go away.

      Remember the mantra kiddies: copy protection only serves to screw your legit users.
    • r2d7, on 10/12/2007, -35/+6Oh yeah they ***** you over good. Did you ever recover from running a keygen and entering a different serial when MS allows you to?

      Do the nightmares still haunt you?

      Have the scars healed?
    • jrizzo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+28@Roger

      Ya, I have like 3 LEGAL copies of XP (free from MSDN, Work, School, etc...). Same deal with Office. I use the pirated copies because the activation is a freaking pain when you reinstall. They wouldn't even let me re-activate office, even after I called them and said my hard drive died. Owning the software and pirating it anyways is saying to MS this:

      "No matter how hard you try, we can still pirate it. Internet hackers are smarter than you and they always will be. Everything you do to stop them just makes it a pain in the ass for your legitimate users and INCREASES piracy."

      That goes for most software companies. When will they realize that there are too many people on the net for them to outsmart? Give up on the brute force protection and find a better way.

      EDIT: Sirocco beat me to it.
    • szembek, on 10/12/2007, -11/+3@thespace: Yeah... I'm, uh, too lazy to go down to the store and spend $200, yeah that's it!
    • titlesaysitall, on 10/12/2007, -12/+3I had used a pirate version of Windows XP, (Windows XP lite) for a while with Q for Mac OS X, it was slow but I decided to use Virtual PC 7 and it was blazing. I only used XP Lite as a demo then I got a legal version of XP Home.
    • thespace, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7@szembek - This is actually the prevailing theory. I might have stated it wrong in my last post, but media distribution including software needs to view piracy as competition. Would you be more willing to pay for the $200 upgrade for Vista by running down to the store and picking up a copy or a $40 Torrent you can download that updates your system in 5 minutes? You could also include Service Packs per quarter with cool new toys to entice customers to purchase them at like $20 a download

      Makes sense right?
    • PowerCow, on 10/12/2007, -10/+24Bill gates started life as a pirate
      Bill got his empire by being a pirate
      Bill gates purposely let windows be easy to pirate to make sure he had a lot of market share.
      Bill gates on piracy "They'll get addicted, and then we'll collect"
      He is just turning his back on the same people that got him where he is today.
      It is is kind of like stereotypical drug pushers
    • austindkelly, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1i really like the idea of paying for an update (as long as they are non-critical) but i think we are missing how fast this indrustry changes. it is very hard for software makers to keep up with demand. i work for a small company (60 people) and it takes us a few days to turn around a simple copy change on a website. wanna add new functionality to a shopping cart online that might be a week or two, maybe more.

      So for the very large company like MS it prob takes them 3 times as long to even issue an update by the simple nature of how a company works.

      So im sure that there are people within MS that relize how great it would be to market the update packages instead of coming out with a new OS every few years and trying to price it at $200 (for the basic version). but those people dont run microsoft, so the idea might be in circulation but i doubt very seriously they are going to change the entire way they produce and sell software over night.
    • PowerCow, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Pirates also tend to make life more convinent.
      IN games.. no cd cracks means you cds will lats for reinstalls and you can play right away
      in a lot of windows install they have it all set up to be automatic, enters int eh key for you and such and some will install things liek firefox and other common favs
      pirate windows was the first to be bootable.. without having to make boot floppies
      ANd teh pirate copy of allwindows is extremely helpful to techs

      99% of copy protection simply hinders valid users as pirates normally remove all that crap or make it easier(by auto entering serials, or having nocd cracks) and hence the pirate copies tend to be better.
    • thespace, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@austindkelly - basic law of survival, if you can't adapt you die.
    • AllenHSmilden, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I don't like this activation stuff either, but why do you think they created it? For fun? They created it because windows was being pirated left and right.
  • HoboMaster, on 10/12/2007, -6/+36Sounds a lot better than XP's 3 times, after which you had to beg and cajole Microsoft to be able to use your copy of XP. I had a computer that died constantly, and every time I worked on it, I had to call Microsoft and explain to get it working again. I hated that computer. Microsoft was amazingly nice about the whole thing though. They always activated it for me.
    • Canute, on 10/12/2007, -7/+22In my experience, as long as you take the trouble to actually call them, they are generally very helpfull and understanding.

      I've installed one copy of MS Office on 4 computers at home, just had to call them for the activation code, which they gladly agreed to give me.
    • radixus, on 10/12/2007, -7/+32That's all well and good . . . but in all honesty, you shouldn't have to call Microsoft, and that's really the point.

      If the license you have is legal then you shouldn't have to be hassled.
    • starlinkuk, on 10/12/2007, -10/+2I have used my legal key on 5 PC's total while finding the best pc to put it on...

      I overwrote the others with Ubuntu as
      I only need 1 Windows PC and a mac
    • unknownsoldierX, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9I had a similar situation. I activated XP four times in a four day span. On the fourth call, they asked me what was going on, but activated me no problem.
    • gaijin, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Three times? I'm constantly tinkering with my XP box. I've reinstalled the OS at least a dozen times on four different hard drives and I've never had to call them to activate it. I wonder what flags one machine and not another. Anybody know?
    • DOUBLEz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7So let me ask you guys this, do you always get 3 "free" activations with XP? because if you do, our PC provider is screwing my company.
    • DOUBLEz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Sorry I couldn't edit this in time...
      Besides my previous question I wanted to mention that I have some licenses that work fine, more than 3 I guess, then I have others that got the message of not being able to register anymore and then a few months later they worked just fine, and I got this last ones my boss bought that haven't work once, except on the pc it was pre-instaled and that's where i think I'm getting screwed
  • jsnkc, on 10/12/2007, -15/+1...and how is this any different from XP??
  • lwdallas, on 10/12/2007, -18/+4Hey, 10 goes--great. No.

    I've switched and I'm happy.
  • Scruffydan, on 10/12/2007, -11/+8So will I have to buy a new version of Vista after I swap HDs 10 times?
    • goat2, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14no it just "gets tricky"
    • sundancekid503, on 10/12/2007, -0/+75No, but you may have to question the brand of HD you're buying.
    • fatkiduluv, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11I think it will give you ten times before you have to call microsoft.
    • Scruffydan, on 10/12/2007, -8/+5"I think it will give you ten times before you have to call microsoft."

      If this is true then I think people are whining about nothing.
    • valzilla, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1For the average home user, this will present absolutely no problem. Even for those who upgrade often, it won't be that bad.

      @Scuffydan - "So will I have to buy a new version of Vista after I swap HDs 10 times?"
      No, you won't have to do anything. However, if you swap your HDs AND, say, a CPU ten times then you will have to do something more than just click Activate.

      Besides, it's not really as bad as people say it is. What? Are MS really going to say "No, F off" to you when you explain that you've upgraded your computer for the eleventh time over the phone?
    • mrFREEZE, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I think you'll have to stop buying Fischer-Price hard drives.
    • cpemma, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Read the link, please. Change the hard drive *and* another component counts, reformatting (or changing) the drive wipes the local activation file so you'll need to re-activate but it won't count.

      Sounds like common sense.
  • bigmanjayman, on 10/12/2007, -2/+21This is what their Vista Betas and RCs are using. Once you exceed you activation it will probably be just a phone call to their activation line to talk to some foreign person, tell them your activation ID and then they will ask you why you are reactivating. You just have to say "I reinstalled it on my machine." Then they will give you the activation code and then they will say "Dank-you come again!"
    • greensky, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5I don't mind having to re-activate at all, even for component changes. I just want the language in the license to allow me to move my legally purchased, retail copy of Vista between machines as much as a want/need to. If they put that in the EULA I think most people would stop worrying about this issue. As it is now, you are allowed to move the license only once. This causes issues for anyone who builds their own PC and intends to purchase a retail version of Vista.
    • dvfreelancer, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6"Then they will give you the activation code and then they will say "Dank-you come again!"

      I'm constantly surprised at how willing people are to have to spend time on the telephone to get a legitimate piece of software working. That you just accept it. I remember when MSFT started with product activation. Back in those days I said pretty soon MSFT would make you call to get your OS working again. Everyone said I was crazy, that people wouldn't accept that. Well, maybe they wouldn't have accepted that right off the bat, but they sure seem to now.

      So, let me tell you what's going to happen next. To MSFT you're not a customer, you're a revenue stream. As more people jump overboard for Linux, that's more revenue MSFT has to squeeze out of those staying behind. You get a clearer view of that in Vista. Now the first thing many of you will have to do with a new Vista machine is BUY an upgrade to the OEM crip version that will almost certainly come with low end PC's. Right away they've figured out how to get their hand in your pocket. After that you'll notice a reluctance to re-activate XP, a little later they'll just refuse and you won't have any recourse because the EULA you click through limits damages to $5.00.

      And I promise you that trend will accelerate going forward. Instead of their best efforts going to add value, their best efforts go to squeezing money out of their customers.
    • leobaby, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I can't agree more. Think about what people go through to cancel AOL. Now imagine that experience to get your very own pc up and running.

      You very well could have someone using high pressure tactics to sell you a new copy of vista to use your very own computer.
  • clownguyx, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2My question is if you install an image of the installed Vista on one computer, and a second, will there be some sort of license check over the net that runs in the background that will recognize two PCs are running the same Vista license at the same time?

    If not, then using Ghost as mentioned in the article, would be an easy work around.
    • willhoy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4If you use ghost it should work fine... if your going to the same hardware every time. I'm not sure how vista is gonna work, but if its anything like xp you'll need to sysprep the initial image to go to dis-similar hardware. If you do sysprep, it'll need activated again as it has to go through setup again.
  • Eleo, on 10/12/2007, -7/+11Well eventually whatever activation scheme they have set up will be cracked, as will future activation schemes. I remember being unable to activate my legit copy of XP Pro, so I just downloaded a pirated copy that doesn't require a serial number and also has a crack for its activation. Works perfectly. I have no intention in putting up with any Vista hassles either.
    • estvir, on 10/12/2007, -10/+13So, instead of spending a couple of minutes entering your serial onto the phone and having an activation code read back to you you spent hours (?) downloading an illegal copy where you have to use things like a crack to use it correctly ?

      You're a smart man. Really. :o
    • usefulidiot, on 10/12/2007, -11/+4Yes HOURS of illegally downloading it, cause you know, say if I make 10$/hour, thats 20 hours of labour (minus taxes as well) just for an operating system. I would rather let my pc sit and download for 20 hours then go work somewhere for 20 and end up witht he same thing save for a fancy box and pretty manual. Sure you may make 30$/hour + but the truth is the rest of us dont.
    • leobaby, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"So, instead of spending a couple of minutes entering your serial onto the phone and having an activation code read back to you you spent hours"

      It took me over an hour to get my copy of windows activated over the phone last time it happened. I was so pissed off I insisted they give me a new key that will activate over the internet. *****...
    • spritom, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I own quite a few legit XP licenses and run a mixture of legit and corp. The corp versions have all been more stable each time, plus the key/keygen has been much more convenient than calling. So I generally leave the legit copies in the drawer and run the corp version in its place
    • Eleo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"So, instead of spending a couple of minutes entering your serial onto the phone and having an activation code read back to you you spent hours (?) downloading an illegal copy where you have to use things like a crack to use it correctly ?"

      Well Windows XP is a 600MB or so iso, so it takes about 15-20 minutes to download on my connection (6Mbps, probably longer for a lot of other people) and about 1 minute to burn on a CD that I can install whenever I want without having to call anyone about it. As often as I clean install Windows, I think those few minutes paid off. And the crack takes me maybe three minutes to apply.

      I don't know how calling them, even if it is automated (I don't know if it is; I never bothered to call because I anticipated being put on hold), is more convenient. More than that, I don't feel I should have to prove I'm not a criminal just because I installed Windows more than three times. And won't the activation they give me also expire after three uses? Again, since I clean install Windows at least three times out of the year, this is more hassle than it's worth to have a pirated, hassle-free installation CD.
  • Stonekeeper, on 10/12/2007, -15/+10I'll add this to my list of reasons for my establishment not to deploy Vista.
    • estvir, on 10/12/2007, -7/+21So, on your list of moronic reasons is:

      5. They've improved upon activating in relation to XP so since I don't like them doing things which are better for customers so I won't upgrade. /hissy fit

      That's about right, yes ?
  • iamcool, on 10/12/2007, -25/+5Glad I left Windows a few years back.

    win 95 - had some issues
    win 98 - the changes are under the hood
    win me - the changes are under the hood

    I got tired of the lies and an OS that couldn't stay up and running. MS kept promising to deliver, but they never did. I switched to the mac and computing has never been better.
    • ElRayQuieres, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11Those are pretty old operating systems. I think they froze almost as much as OS 9. If someone switched from OS 8 or 9 to win xp, they'd think "computing has never been better" also.
    • 5thfreedom, on 10/12/2007, -8/+13Funny, my PC running XP stays up and running with no problem. In fact, it's at least as stable as my Mac. Go troll someplace else.
    • szembek, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5If you're talking 98 go home and install xp. then come back when you realize the fixed it.
    • austindkelly, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5eww, you used winME in that case i dont blame you for the switch. but i do hope you are not compairing your precious OSX to 98ME, that would not be fair no matter who you are routing for.
    • MattyLite, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Lol . . . I love my Mac and all, but you can't compare OSX to 95, 98, or ME. Windows XP, if used properly, doesn't have that many problems. People like you blindly hating Windows just makes the rest of us Mac users look bad.
  • boneill, on 10/12/2007, -16/+3You only get 10 activations with Windows XP as well.
  • Wollstonecraft, on 10/12/2007, -21/+10Vista is going to be the final nail in the coffin of my Microsoft OS usage. The next time I install a new OS it's going to be Linux based.

    Bye bye MS.
    • Roger, on 10/12/2007, -10/+5"Bye bye MS."

      Sadly its not that easy.
    • szembek, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Yeah right buddy.
    • austindkelly, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8what planet are you from? the world of no market share?
  • jcapogna, on 10/12/2007, -9/+6This is no different than Windows XP.
  • jav1231, on 10/12/2007, -9/+4This is sad news. I for one was looking forward to Microsoft going forward with this silliness.
  • repruhsent, on 10/12/2007, -18/+8No wonder I'm buying a Mac pretty soon. Before you know it, Microsoft is going to want you to ask permission to double click an icon.
    • szembek, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13At least they don't require you to buy your machine from a specific manufacturer!!!
  • icexe, on 10/12/2007, -9/+23It amazes me how complacent we've all become. The fact that people no longer see anything wrong with calling someone to beg approval to use something you legally bought with your own money just shows how easy it is to get people to accept any pile of crap you shovel their way.
    • markr, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5I tend to agree with you - but there are alternatives.

      However, people are generally complacent about DRM issues and the restrictions that they place on something that we've legally purchased. I don't think that general consumers understand the importance of DRM and what affect it could have on us in the future...
    • doodlebumm, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I totally agree. People are being pulled around by a ring in their nose, and loving it. What kind of B&D computing world are we coming to.

      "This is what we will give you and you will thank us for it." Total BS. What ever happened to "the customer is always right?" MS-BS. Got a monopoly? Do what Microsoft does and screw your customers. "Oh, thank-you, Microsoft! What would we ever do without you?"
  • datastorageguy, on 10/12/2007, -13/+3Oh great...I reformat the root volume every month or so.
    • datastorageguy, on 10/12/2007, -9/+4nvm...bury that comment for not paying attention to the facts...
  • skyeadams, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3I don't have a problem with WGA if Microsoft wants to keep tabs out for pirates, let them. However, if it disables my ability on using my own operating system (that I will pay for), then I will be sending a few calls over their way demanding a refund, and a lawyer for the loss of business I would of obtained from upgrading.

    (NOTE: For users buying the new Vista, check out Microsoft Action Pack perfectly legal..)

    :-)
    • sundancekid503, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11"then I will be sending a few calls over their way demanding a refund, and a lawyer for the loss of business I would of obtained from upgrading."

      Sweet, I hope CourtTV carries the case of Microsoft VS Joe Schmoe
    • tradjik, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2Action Pack is amazing.

      For $300 you get 10 LEGIT licenses for XP Pro, 10x Office2003, Server2003, Exchange2003, Small Business2003, SQL, SharePoint, and so on and so on.

      Since it is a subscription, there are also quarterly updates, so I am thinking Vista will be included once it is released.

      For those people who 'qualify' it is a hard deal to beat.
  • MobbyG, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2Is anyone else getting a window "Could not save digg, try again later."?
    • 5thfreedom, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Happens to me every once in a while too. Restart your browser.
  • rick2k, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Well this is exactly the same as XP...

    umm?
    • pickypg, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5XP had 5. This is better than XP.

      I think most people here don't know that and want to act technically inclined, or just are software pirates and they are looking for an excuse to justify it to themselves again this time around.
  • Nitwon, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4I am by no means a lover of Microsoft. But I can't really blame Microsoft for taking steps to reduce piracy, that would mean his royal Gatesyness doesn't get quite as rich as he wants to be, and we can't have that can we?

    Seriously though, when you're running a software company, piracy is as issue, and if it were my company I would do everything in my power to prevent it. Piracy is money lost, and business is all about money. (as we all well know) :P and we all want money don't we?
    • revisrev, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2Yea, it seems like some people are arguing against anti-piracy because they see nothing wrong with piracy, but, the large majority of people are merely pointing out that their measures are only hurting the legit consumers. It's like the saying that if you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns, kinda. Only in this they're saying that if you treat all of your customers like potential pirates you run the risk of making pirates of them, while the real pirates remain unaffected. Microsoft hasn't really implemented anything that is going to stop pirating, but, they have made things more difficult for real users. If people want to pirate they will find a way. Even if Microsoft is successful with this, it could hurt the company by pushing would-be Windows pirates to open-source-software instead, and um, people talk. This guy uses Linux, then this guy's brother, and before you know it mom's playing Aisle-Riot Solitaire instead of the bundled Windows version.

      People that don't want to pay for Windows will not pay for Windows, if they can't get it for free then they will migrate to something that is free. For all of these very same reason the war on drugs is not working, and is only hurting society as a whole, but that's another discussion entirely.
  • V1ncent, on 10/12/2007, -9/+7The only people thinking Vista will cause the downfall of Microsoft are the ones taking the short bus to school and wearing helmets indoors.
  • the_atomic_ned, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9This will only hurt legit users.. Pirates will get a hacked version with activation turned off.
  • JMJimmy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7I'm happy with my XP thanks - once they give me a hard time about it I'll simply switch to Apple or Linux (probably both) and say goodbye to M$.
  • thespace, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2LOL, reminds me of that latest TWIT episode where the guy was talking about Bill Gates first selling BASIC or something like that and someone came to the convention with an exact copy of his application on disk and when he found out about it everyone said his face turned beat red and he got madder than a hornet. LOL! (I don't remember the exact story but went down something to that effect)

    But here's the deal, MS needs to stop getting angry and telling everyone they're guilty of piracy with little annoying popups, deactivation, etc. They've got to start a new model. Piracy should be viewed as their competitor. In order to beat their competitor, they need to open up their product, free it of WGA, and add a new way to streamline the update process as a pay-per-update model. Kinda like you add your credit card info and you get updates and pay for them once per quarter. No more than that. Regular bug updates would be free. But to get new features you would need to purchase the update.

    I couldn't see this getting any more than $60 for like a major update and like $10-20 per quarter. They could also recover costs on charging for Windows Live services and an iLife competitor.
    • lithuin, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5"Piracy should be viewed as their competitor"
      OK, I've heard similar statements from a few posts now and it just doesn't make any sense to me. Should GM view car thieves as a competitor? They don't produce anything to compete with!
      thespace, I'm not just picking on you; this applies to everyone defending piracy.
      Piracy, BitTorrent, and P2P programs are not a form of competition. They are a means of theft. You can rationalize it however you want, but if you don't like Microsoft for their practices, make a statement by not using their software!
      If you don't like Microsoft for whatever reason and declare that you will not purchase their software, then you can't pirate it without lying to yourself. If it's good enough for you to pirate and use, then you have to decide if your qualms about them are worth not using the software. If they are, then DON'T USE IT! :)
      I don't like SUVs because they are not fuel efficiant. Does that mean I should still get an SUV and steal my gas?
    • thespace, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2But business models are not built on what ifs. They're built on what works. The iTunes model proves that this business model works and that ALL software companies need to look at this model. RIAA flooded the p2p networks with crap, shut servers down and made it hard to download music. iTunes rose to be the number one music store cause the music was immediately available and accessible. Same with software. Immediate availability and accessibility. Make it easy to purchase, one click, that's it. I could imagine that I already have an account with MS, I click one button to purchase a new upgrade and my computer starts updating itself via the net. All for $25 bucks or something, chump change.

      The thing is, it would be so much less of a cost and so many more people would do it that the cost recovery per pirated copies would probably be better than the model they're using now. Microsoft needs to always focus on an important factor of computing that they're missing the boat on. Ease of use.
    • klawz, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2WRONG lithuin,
      BitTorrent, and P2P is to piracy as a gun/knife/pencil is to murders.
      Just becuase you use them for good, and just becuase they CAN be used for evil, doesn't mean they are used JUST for evil, get a clue next time before posting.
    • lithuin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@klawz
      Jeez, what is wrong with you?
      I never said that BitTorrent or P2P have no good uses.
      I said using them to distribute warez is a bad idea.

      Putz.

      @thespace
      If you originally meant that BitTorrent would make a good means of distribution, then I would agree. I think they've already moved quite a bit closer to an open distribution model by including all of the different versions on a single disk.
      The only issue I've got a problem with is people who use product activation as an excuse for software piracy.
  • Ascus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I used to regularly wipe my PC every 3 months or so, then reinstall just the software I was still using. This got rid of all my crap that has accumulated from installing/uninstalling trial software, unwanted cookies, games I no longer play, etc. It had the side benefit wiping any adware, virus, trogans etc. Now between XP on Office constantly refusing to install, this has become to much of a hassle, I have to call MS to activate each time since I am over my limit.
    • szembek, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Only if you take out your hard drive and another piece of major hardware and replace them at the same time and then reinstall. Just reinstalling is fine. Please read the article then come back and join us.
    • Ascus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Everytime FDISK my HD, WinXP thinks its a new drive, I expect Vista to do the same. So it sounds like it counts as one of the 10 swaps.
    • bluechocobo42, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Hard drive and _Another major piece of hardware_. Not just a hard drive alone.

      From the article: "[A Microsoft spokesman] told us that Windows Vista will not require a system re-activation unless the hard drive and one other component is changed."
  • Leathersoup, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2There's no way I can afford to get Vista. It is too much of a resource hog for me to want to upgrade from XP. I'll wait until I am unable to use any software due to Microsofts inablility to add DirectX 10 to XP and then I may just go with a Mac.
    I mean if I'm unable to run any software under XP, the small selection of software available for the Mac won't be a problem for me anymore. :)
    (plus by that time, I'm sure the amount of software available for Mac will have improved due to the Intel switch and the number of other people fleeing from the MS juggernaut money vacuum).
    • tradjik, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2The upgrade argument is a bad one. Vista requires some bigger hardware than most home users have, sure. However I am not expecting to run Vista on my old P2 400.

      Just ask Apple users when they had to jump from OS9 to OSX, there was a lot of new Mac purchasing going on.
  • VSack, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6As an IT guy that tests computer components, programs, etc. and is reformatting my PC constantly, I can tell you that this is going to be absolutely unacceptable.

    We have 50 licenses for XP Pro in my company, and unless I hear signifigantly different things coming from the public after Vista's rollout, I will be pushing Ubuntu to the desktop.

    Can you imagine working for a company that gets a false positive or are forced to reactivate hundreds or thousands of PCs? This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

    I am sick and tired of the biggest companies in the tech industry treating honest people like we are f'ing criminals. Sony, RIAA, MPAA, Microsoft....in their court of law, the consumer is GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT! How can we stand for this?

    And don't come at me with this whole "If you don't pirate you have nothing to worry about" argument. Its the same argument people made immediately after 9/11 to justify relinquishing their civil liberties in order to feel more safe. It's BS and not acceptable business practice.

    If this doesn't change, I will play my part in no longer purchasing Microsoft products as well as reccomending to everyone I know to do the same.
    • tradjik, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Then as an IT guy purchasing 50 XP Pro copies you should have known about volume licensing. This would have saved your company money as well as relieved you from the activation nightmare you are currently seeing.

      http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/activation_volumefaq.mspx
      ---
      "How are businesses supposed to activate software on dozens or even hundreds of machines? This can't be done efficiently.

      That is why Microsoft Corp. does NOT require customers who acquire their licenses through one of its volume licensing agreements, such as Open License and Select License, to activate most of their licenses."
    • sundancekid503, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4You'll switch the entire company to Ubuntu because you're constantly testing components on and formatting (I'm assuming) one machine? I think you're decision has little to do with the topic at hand. Unless you're business is totally cut and dry/plain jane I think you'll create more problems than you'll solve by switching everyone over to Ubuntu.
    • pickypg, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Working in the tech industry, I actually have a sense of how this stuff happens. I work for a small business that sells relatively expensive software that automatically turns itself off after about two months (after first use) if you do not enter a license key.

      The sad part is it's not just to stop pirates, but also legitimate customers who have ignored paying us for the whole two months. We often get calls asking why the software stopped working and how can they get rid of the screen asking for the license key (that clearly states they need to get the license key by PAYING for the software). We have the records and know if someone just needs to be reminded of their key so we don't recharge them.

      It's amazing how much more money we started bringing in as a result of this "feature" even though sales stayed linear.

      Pirating is not a competitor because you cannot compete against pirating. They can always match your features identically and they can always beat you on price (free), no matter what.

      It's like saying candy stores have to compete with candy thieves that resell the candy. The candy thieves can always have the latest product and they can sell it for much less and obtain a profit, no matter what; even if they give it away for free they are not losing anything, but the candy store is and already did the second the candy thief took the candy, regardless of what he does with it.

      I refuse to pay for updates, especially those that fix bugs because that is BS. It's the software companies fault that the bug exists, and I should not have to pay for something I already paid for. That's like paying for the recall on your car.

      Besides, you do realize that XP has the same set up as this 10 shots at automatic activation as Vista, right? I believe XP has 5 shots too, so you're getting an easier upgrade right there. Not to mention once you use them up, it's just a matter of calling someone and saying "No, I don't have it installed on another PC." Woopedy doo. Don't come work for my company.
    • prevett, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Hmm... If I remember correctly (and It may have changed) I believe the new Open/Corproate licensing will require to report on a monthly basis your software usage to microsoft? At least I have heard talk of that. Funny, I am also An IT Guy, with 50 Licenses(Open) for XP...
    • cquinnd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4If you're an IT guy, why aren't you using or checking out the available tools that allow for just what you are asking for from the Windows Vista deployment kits?

      How do you manage updates to those 50 computers now?
  • Cowboy5995, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5What do you people do with your XP machines that make them crash so much? I have had this version of XP installed for at least 6 months with out any crashing or kind of virus and that is with file shareing and every thing.
    • khyberkitsune, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1That's an easy one to answer.

      Programming/beta testing of software. one bad call somewhere can totally crash, and potentially hose, your XP install.
  • MikeUnwired, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I don't see calling after 10 installations to be begging so much as a nuisance. My big question is let's say I work on lots of projects and each time I start a new one, I buy a legal copy for each machine by the way. I want to start-off with a fresh system on my development and test machines. So, I re-image one of the workstations -- maybe monthly or even every few days. Does each re-image count as one install -- I haven't changed the hard drive or any components. Ten installations would run out real quickly and I'd be stuck calling and explaining every time I decided to start out with a clean machine.

    At home, where I would be using a developer or professional version, my kids have a habit of installing crap that locks-up their systems really well. I've started to think that re-imaging their computers regularly might be the way to go to keep me from having to surgically remove the nasty stuff I keep telling them not to install. But, over a few years I'd most likely eat-up more than 10 helpings of Vista in this constant effort to protect my kids from the blessing of their own unsafe computing. Making that call to M$ would be a hassle, but I'm pretty sure my hands wouldn't be tied.

    I've had to call M$ to ask for activation on an Office package a few times. I went through three new laptops in a week once and had to call on the third activation. It wasn't a big deal and they gave it to me right away. Over a year or so, installing Office on three of four systems as you upgrade isn't flagged, but all in one week -- they start to sense that someone might be sharing their media in a way that violates the EULA.

    Remember, we don't "own" the software -- we license it from Microsoft. It's like beer -- we can't ever really own it, we just rent it while it's in our bodies...
    • cquinnd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2If you are re-imaging onto the same hardware each time, why are you not making the image right after you do the activation, so when you restore it is already activated and ready to go on that hardware?

      There are also tools in the works (iirc) to let you backup the activation record from your system and create a new installer that knows your status from the initial setup.
  • pauleku, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3+1 more reason NOT to buy vista and get linux or osx
  • mobilehavoc, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Summary:

    # of PCs you want to install Vista on to / 10
  • dezent, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3this is insane!
  • chokeyou, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Glad I don't use Windows. That is ridiculous. I wonder what it will take before the majority of people finally just give up? Seems to me that Windows is like a drug. Consumers have seen the Win GUI for so long that they know nothing else. It's on every computer they've ever bought. They rely on it. They *need* it. People are so used to it, and so hooked on it, that MS could do nearly anything they want to it and "users" (pun intended) wouldn't - or perhaps couldn't - quit. They would agree to anything. Or rather, they'd passively not not-agree. They'd have to. MS has what they want. The People believe it's their only option. The People don't even think there are options. Could you quit right now?
  • adminfoo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1This is welcome news, but totally unverified. The article doesn't even name a source.

    I'm waiting for it to be announced on the Vista blog:

    http://blogs.technet.com/windowsvista/
  • psilanthropist, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2who the hell cares about this ?

    whats the bet the web is flooded with activation patches once vista is released.
  • khyberkitsune, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Microsoft has a way of telling if it's the same machine to avoid piracy problems - it's called your CPUID. Windows can get access to the hard-coded serial.

    Still, the main problem I have is "If I pay for it, I own it. I pay for a legit key, I pay for the media it comes on." Microsoft seems to not agree with me.

    I think I should charge them for the usage of extra unnecessary wasted cycles and memory usage, since nothing in their EULA says I can't bill them for wasting MY resources they're not paying for. :)
  • sigmaman2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I have a legitimate copy of Windows XP (WGA told me so). If I upgrade the hard drive, and say, the DVD-RW (that's one more component, right?) it sounds like I'll have to re-register. If If I upgrade one HD, then add an additional HD, I'll have to re-register too? What about graphics cards? Sound cards? Firewire cards? video capture cards? And if I use a transfer program to move my OS and data to a new PC, that's another?

    I don't like having to keep track of how many systems changes I have made, just so I can stay under some arbitrary number, set by someone I've never met, who used criteria I have no knowledge of.

    I'm a cheap, lazy, simple man. I always choose the option with less money, less worry, or less effort. Vista is looking, more menacing, more complicated, and more expensive now. I've been using Linux for a while now as well. Piracy or not, in my opinion, MS is shooting themselves in the foot with this move.
  • IHaveVoot, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Because there are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
  • JonForTheWin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2We're all going to download the volume license key version anyway so it won't be a problem. =)
    • pisspot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1My understanding is that there isn't going to be any open license. Even Uncle Sam's going to have to put up with this *****! I hope they don't deactivate the Space Shuttle out in space so it can't get back to Earth!
  • Zuggy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3This is why my next computer will be a mac. I've gotten screwed over twice by microsoft with XP. Twice since 2004 I've had to buy new XP keys for the same computer. After a couple reformats and reinstalls it says my key has been activated to many times, so I spend hours with MS support just to find out they won't activate it over the phone, so I go to my local computer store and buy a new license, because I use Adobe CS2 for school so I can't switch to straight linux.

    Microsoft, like most big companies don't get that they aren't detering pirates, they are alienating faithful users. Software pirates are smart enough to overcome anything they come up with, but us honest people keep getting screwed. And then we turn into pirates because it's less of a hassle.
  • BWhaler, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3So sad what has become of Microsoft.

    Actually, not really. Microsoft has always been a bunch of law breaking, IP stealing scumbags.

    The fall of MS is simply Kharma.
  • freecris, on 10/12/2007, -1/+110?

    Are we sure aren't they in "binary mode"?
  • SirZRX, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2heres what i did... i bought a brand new laptop, and new laptops are loaded whit crapware, so i download a pirated copy of wixp I USED MY ORIGINAL SERIAL PASTED UNDER MY LAPTOP, download the drivers and now i have a very clean system and i dun have to register whit microsoft cuz their customer support in mexico sucks big time.
  • Xanium4332, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2I don't mind paying for Microsoft's OS, once, but having to buy, at extortionate prices, an OS over and over again, just because there's a new version, is just like being legally robbed!!!

    If I bought Windows 98, I should get free upgrades all the way to Vista (and beyond), just like lots of other companies offer. The only reason MS doesn't do this is because they can, they have the power to make millions of people spend money on a new OS, which probably isn't going to have that many new features, and then charge them again when a small upgrade is created...

    Sorry, but making people pay over and over again for the same thing is not reasonable.

    /Me's Boxes:
    Windows = 3 computers
    Linux = 3 computers
    Mac = 0 (soon to be 1)
  • drwiii, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1People are getting way too wound up over this. If they get out of line, just "deactivate" the money you paid to them.

    It's very simple. If Microsoft deactivates and/or refuses to activate your software, produce your proof of purchase and demand activation or a refund. If they still refuse, take them to small claims court and recover the cost (and then some) when they no-show.

    Problem solved.
  • AtomB, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2At my work we have several different machines that all have OEM disks but It's easier to reinstall with a pirate disk than figuring out which disk goes with which machine. They are all legal copies but it's such a pain to match them all up we just use one cracked disk.
  • mcgowanbl, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I for one will definitely purchase Vista when it comes out.

    I will also get a Corporate Vista install as soon as I can if activation is NOT required.

    Then I will do a "repair install" or and "in place upgrade" to ensure I don't invalidate my legitimate product key in any way.

    I've worked with Microsoft call center support for 3 years and was there for the launch of XP.

    What I notice is 80% of the people who deal with activation problems have pirated it in the first place or allowed someone to see their product key (stupidly displayed on a sticker on their OEM laptop or desktop case).

    10% trusted a tech to fix their computer and they used pirated install CDs and product keys to attempt resolve their issue (note: these can be fixed by booting to CDs and repair install with their product key).

    The last 10% are having problems because they swap hardware a lot or they disabled the “Plug and Play / universal Plug and play” services in msconfig (this causes the system to see numerous hardware changes due to those devices using PNP no longer being accessible/installed) or their tech did. Note: there will not be an issue reactivating if you key is “Valid”.

    Every six months the Activation servers records are flushed so you can have another go at activating.

    If you have to activate by phone be NICE and act stupid and talk Reeeeal slow. ex. “You: my computer smokeded den Dell fixeded it but I cant start onto the window cuz it sez Im legitimate. Tech: how many computers do you have this loaded on? You: I only got one Dell”. Your goal here is to make them think your too stupid to pirate windows. Whether or not they give you a new activation code is up to the discretion of the technician you are speaking with not Microsoft as a whole.
    • icexe, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"Your goal here is to make them think your too stupid to pirate windows. Whether or not they give you a new activation code is up to the discretion of the technician you are speaking with not Microsoft as a whole."

      and this is acceptable? YOU BOUGHT IT, yet your ability to use it is now granted on the whim of a technician to whom you have to pander and suck up to. So if he/she is having a bad day, is feeling vindictive, or just simply doesn't like the sound of my voice, they can bar me from using something I purchased from them, with no refund or exchange. Why is this even remotely considered an acceptable business practice?
  • tashpool, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"...you got 10 goes, geek"

    Real geeks probably found this confusing since they haven't booted windows in years.
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