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Linus fires latest shot in GNOME Wars

applications.linux.com — Some bad blood between Linus Torvalds and GNOME developers is flaring up again. Previously, Torvalds has said that Linux users should switch to KDE instead of GNOME. Now he has "put his money where his mouth is" by submitting patches to the GNOME Print Dialog in order to have it behave as he likes.

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  • cyberwiz01, on 10/12/2007, -36/+94Gnome needs to get over the Philosophy of crippling features to improve "useability." Case in point: try to adjust your screensaver settings in Gnome. Should be trivial to do right? Nope.
    I understand that they are trying to make it as simple as possible. And I also understand that KDE can be a little too cluttered some times. But why can't there be a balance of form and functionality that doesn't require crippling features.

    Go Linus!
    • junkalam, on 10/12/2007, -20/+172Last time i checked Linux was all about "choice". Personally i prefer Gnome over KDE.
    • darkbird, on 10/12/2007, -63/+26Gnome is simple because the Gnome philosophy is all about the end-user grandma type person, and not about the monster power-user.
    • secleinteer, on 10/12/2007, -22/+50darkbird:
      And how many Linux users are end-user grandma type people? How many of them are power users?
    • pufuwozu, on 10/12/2007, -22/+76@darkbird, as a self-proclaimed power-user, I'd just like to say that I prefer Gnome than any other.
    • darkbird, on 10/12/2007, -17/+60@secleinteer: If linux is to go mainstream, we need to start thinking about the enduser, and not the power-user.
      @pufuwozu: I am also a "self-proclaimed power-user" and I also prefer Gnome.
    • tinker123, on 10/12/2007, -12/+33@secleinteer

      That is the point behind the Gnome philosophy. They are trying to get Linux to the point that non-power users would want to use it.
    • megaton, on 10/12/2007, -6/+24@secleinteer:

      And how many want to change that? *puts hand up*
    • vuke69, on 10/12/2007, -23/+13I will admit they gimped the screen saver settings in gnome, but who the hell, besides noobs, use screen savers anyhow?
    • secleinteer, on 10/12/2007, -37/+11To everyone wanting to spread Linux to end-users: just give up, it's not going to happen. For the last five years, I've heard articles about how "this year is going to be the year of the Linux desktop," regardless of whether it's GNOME or KDE. And nothing's happened. Nothing.
    • ch33zm0ng3r, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16As with all desktop environments you always have the terminal. "Power users" should be able to use this feature to get the desired result if they can't find the button that they want to click in the GUI. I suppose that some would argue that you don't want another step between you and your functions, but the GUI sort of "in the way" to begin with. Simplicity is zen. However, as stated above you can choose Gnome, KDE, XFCE, Open Box....., ..., ..., or make your own. No need to argue really.
    • secleinteer, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16Link to actual posts on mailing list: http://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2007-February/thread.html
    • maninblac1, on 10/12/2007, -21/+43Gnome is in the wrong here, for what it's worth.

      As it is, linux does not make a suitable mainstream desktop OS, there are far to many complexities to it that MS and Apple abstract away better from the end user. From an IT perspective usablity testing leans towards heavily on linux, but you're also testing the usability for IT people. You grab a 9 year old and ask them to change the screen res on linux without a GUI and you can probably forget it.

      This is where free software lacks in ideology, when you're creating new code to accomplish some function, you program it to work, but on the bigger picture you're not generally concerned with how it works since those of us who will use it will understand what and why you did it that way. MS and Apple have the responsibility to program not for themselves, or for the advanced IT community, but for the general populace who pays good money for the software, it should work and it should be simple, regardless of its abstractions.

      Lastly, programming in the general is a skill that requires one more skill before it can be useful, and that is engineering. I stand pretty firmly about that feeling, CS and SE majors who have a background or parallel education in engineering make superior programmers to traditional programmers, not by means of education, but by means of thought.

      I like Gnome over KDE though, as a note.
    • secleinteer, on 10/12/2007, -9/+14Linus:
      "Really, I'm not kidding. It's either "Grandma", "Mum" or a discussion about nipples and *****."
    • affanjam, on 10/12/2007, -30/+12KDE has too much eye candy. Gnome is better to look at.
    • shinynew, on 10/12/2007, -13/+3I chose enlightenment, Just get all the settings stuff from gnome then install enlightenment. the virutal / multi desktops are very nice (its nothing like the crappy four that you get with gnome/KDE)
    • Cl1mh4224rd, on 10/12/2007, -12/+6> "Now he has "put his money where his mouth is" by submitting patches to the GNOME Print Dialog in order to have it behave as he likes."

      This seems like a serious abuse of the "Linux philosophy" to me...
    • daxsymbiont, on 10/12/2007, -16/+10linus is right. kde is way better. and with current ram/cpus, arguments of 'faster' are unbased, there's no noticeable performance loss unless you're on embedded or sth.
    • Cl1mh4224rd, on 10/12/2007, -19/+55I personally dislike KDE if only for the "first impressions" aspect. KDE's default theme rivals XP's default theme for the most childish-looking, in my opinion.

      Konquerer, as an all-in-one thing, just plain bothers me, too. No one likes browsing the Internet in an Explorer window, so why is this OK?

      When I use Linux, I choose GNOME. Good to know I still have that choice.

      ...Right?
    • Fordi, on 10/12/2007, -11/+22Feh. The point is that Gnome isn't written for Linus; it's written for people who don't know what they're doing.

      Which is why I use XFCE; if you're going to have a low-feature interface, there's no good reason for it to take up hundereds of megs.
    • vivisector, on 10/12/2007, -10/+18I'm running GNOME right now and I never realized how limiting it really is. I mean changing anything is a pain in the ass. As for KDE I find it too cluddered.
    • fakepatriot, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4@ AffanJam
      That doesn't make any sense...
    • bmwboy, on 10/12/2007, -7/+4GNOME is a great UI when you get it skinned. But, out of the box it's ass ugly.
      http://techoncrack.blogspot.com/2006/09/why-is-gnome-so-ugly.html
      See, out of the box it looks like utter crap....
    • neko, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8I totally agree about the screensaver. While I prefer Gnome to KDE, one of the first things I absolutely must do is uninstall that crippled gnome-screensaver package and replace it with good ol' xscreensaver.

      Neither Gnome or KDE are perfect from a usability standpoint IMHO, although Gnome is closer.
      I gave KDE a quick twirl with the latest Knoppix 5.1, and was very disappointed to see that the file manager still truncates file names the lame way windows explorer does - there is no need for this, Nautilus' layout fits things perfectly with no "..." needed.
      Then again, Gnome's default Save and Open dialogs still drive me crazy, with all the directory navigation controls hidden by default, and no way to change that default. And it's increasingly reliant on Mono for it's apps, which I don't consider a good move. Even if Rhythmbox/Banshee had a non-buggy interface, it'd still have Ballmer's shadow looming over it, wielding chairs in each of it's eight arms.
    • outoforder, on 10/12/2007, -7/+9"Case in point: try to adjust your screensaver settings in Gnome. Should be trivial to do right? Nope."

      You make a bold claim with no evidence. Please explain what is wrong with the screensaver dialog?
    • Netwatcher, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3I'm not quite sure how big a power user you really need to be to change your screen saver settings. I mean that's just getting ridiculous.

      That said I'm on Gnome too.
    • neko, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12@outoforder: "You make a bold claim with no evidence. Please explain what is wrong with the screensaver dialog?"

      Ok, I can field this one, firing up my other machine with a fresh install of ubuntu edgy, I see two main options "Blank Screen" "Random", followed by the big list of screensavers. So I can choose a random one out of all of those, or just one of those -- where did the checkboxes go? Why can't I select my custom subset of desirable screensavers?
      Comparing to the xscreensaver preferences on my main debian machine, the "Blank After" option is still there, but no control for how long to wait between cycling random screensavers. All the custom options per-saver seem to have vanished.

      Ah, interesting, When I had it on the Dapper machine at work, and used it to lock my screen, the "New Login" button from xscreensaver was missing, meaning if someone else needs to quickly log in while I'm out to lunch, they couldn't. I see that's been fixed in the Edgy version of gnome-screensaver, there's a "Switch user.." button now. Nice to see they fixed that up, but I still find the lack of preferences to be very restrictive.
    • regeya, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11I really couldn't care less which desktop Linus stands behind. I like KDE for the choice, have always preferred KDE amongst the full-fledged Free desktops, and generally only use something else when I have tighter memory requirements (then it's XFCE, or possibly Window Maker with a few GUI tools) or when KDE is suffering from unfixed bugs, especially unfixed bugs that are just left unfixed by my distribution-of-choice...but that's what I get for using KDE on a GNOME-fanboy Linux distribution. Heck, I like Ruby and KDE, and use Ubuntu. I must be dumb.

      For the people wondering why Konqueror does everything: It was, iirc, largely a response to Microsoft's threat of making IE a part of the operating system. At the time, KFM had integrated KHTML support, while WIn98's IE integration was tenuous at best. :-D I used to have a screenshot of KFM displaying MS's page on the improvements in '98, just 'coz I thought it was funny that it was all coming Real Soon Now(TM) while I was using KDE which "shipped" with most of the stated major improvements. I understand why people don't like it, and to tell the truth I alternate between Firefox and Opera, but I know of quite a few folks who like the integration of Internet and desktop.
    • outoforder, on 10/12/2007, -4/+0@neko,

      "Ah, interesting, When I had it on the Dapper machine at work, and used it to lock my screen, the "New Login" button from xscreensaver was missing, meaning if someone else needs to quickly log in while I'm out to lunch, they couldn't. I see that's been fixed in the Edgy version of gnome-screensaver, there's a "Switch user.." button now. Nice to see they fixed that up, but I still find the lack of preferences to be very restrictive."

      That's funny, I've never noticed how Gnome is missing individual screensaver settings. Maybe it's because I don't really care about screensavers (I use a blank one). I think they should provide these settings, but I can think of more important things to focus on. Screen saver settings aren't a top priority for me.
    • mraustin1337, on 10/12/2007, -6/+13How can one be such a total geek and such a total badass at the same time? Absolutely breathtaking.

      Hats off to you Mr Torvalds. I just added your last name to my Firefox dictionary. Now that is respect.
    • noamsml, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Same here. I love gnome and don't use any other desktop environment, but even I would definitely like to be able to configure more without delving into gconf-editor. Gnome-screensaver is a prime example of this, as it stripped away many of the necessary features from xscreensaver.
    • GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12For those complaining about Konqueror. You are showing a clear misunderstanding of what KDE is. Konqueror also has a text editor and PDF viewer (among others) on top of its web browser and file viewer. The editor is of course KATE and the PDF viewer KPDF.

      These are all actually separate applications that are maintained by their own teams with all the appropriate time taken on them. It's just that the KDE API is built around the principle of building your programs around modular KParts with a KPart viewer used to deliver the application. Konqueror is just a generic KPart viewer that can be made into whatever the hell you like by creating the appropriate KPart.

      IE integration sucked because IE was a monolithic nightmare. Everything about it was distinctly average and security struggled because of it's size. Now Konqueror is made of many small and well tested modules following the Unix philosophy. It is not an integrated do everything job, it does one job well. It includes KParts to handle whatever task it needs to achieve. As a result each task is a project in it's own right and treated as such, the KATE team take their work seriously and want to develop something worthy of a flame/religious war. It just happens to be done in a way that Konqueror can import it.

      In any case, comparisons to IE are superficial. What is bad with IE is not what they tried but how they tried it. Konqueror does it properly. Note that you could actually write your own KParts to replace the standard ones. If someone did something mad like a Gecko KPart you'd have Firefox via Konqueror. You can write your own file browser and replace the standard one. There used to be a Vim KPart (to replace KATE) and I think QT Designers text editor is also a KPart.
    • Fafnir43, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6outoforder: The problem is not that the settings are not there. The problem is that the settings are not there, they *released* the software with the settings not there, and they have publically stated that they do not intend to add the settings. Ever.
    • silic0n, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1There is a near-perfect balance of usability and features, and I believe it's called Mac OS X.
    • BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7"""But why, oh, why, have GNOME people not just said "please fix it then"?
      Instead, I _still_ (now after I sent out the patch) hear more of your kvetching about how you actually do everything right, and it's somehow *my* fault that I find things limiting.

      Here's a damn big clue: the reason I find GNOME limiting is BECAUSE IT IS.

      Now the question is, will people take the patches, or will they keep their heads up their arses and claim that configurability is bad"""

      Whether you agree with the man on DE preference or not - he's absolutely right about that. When any other OS project comes across lacking onbvious features or even design problems, it's happy to get them fixed.

      When you try to get bugs and misfeatures fixed up in gnome, they spend a fair bit of time and energy justifying the problems - time and energy that could be applied trying out the patch, or even addressing the problem themselves if the patch isn't good enough.
    • smartalecks, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2Linus is pretty dumb sometimes.

      Because he is the _creator_ of Linux, and his opinion is highly respected, he should not have said anything at all. He's going against the whole point of the community-- freedom of choice.
  • Kebert, on 10/12/2007, -41/+8I like Gnome, I think KDE is bloated and it looks like it's made for noobs.
    • schestowitz, on 10/12/2007, -2/+41Different people have different needs. I like KDE. I have used many desktop environment over the years and KDE has a lot of functionality that I need. There's no one DE that's perfect. It's not a 'one size fits all' sort of thing. To use a car analogy, some tasks require trucks. Some tasks are better handled by a small car.
    • mikelieman, on 10/12/2007, -18/+13You're both nuts. Ratpoision is the only TRUE windowmanager.

    • solemnraven, on 10/12/2007, -26/+8omfg. Can we not just all agree that we hate paying for OSs and stop bickering about what free os OTHER people should use?
      YOU use what you want and NO ONE cares what that is.

      i won't say which i prefer b/c as stated before NO ONE GIVES A RATS ASS.(or at least they shouldn't)
    • g3r4, on 10/12/2007, -4/+21GNOME isn't an OS. Its a Desktop Environment. Linux is the OS. Or if you prefer, [Insert Distro Name Here] is the OS.
    • Fordi, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3KDE: Can handle a geek, but I like it too!
    • Giga, on 10/12/2007, -6/+22"I like Gnome, I think KDE is bloated and it looks like it's made for noobs."

      I like KDE, I think Gnome is featureless and it IS made for noobs.
    • regeya, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2@josephg:

      So you're saying that GNOME is for people with design sense and want a pretty desktop, and KDE is for people who want to get some work done.

      :->

      Think about this: OS X, as it's shipped, comes with one look, and two color schemes. Does that mean OS X is for people with no imagination whatsoever?

      And why is it that the most popular themes on gnome-look.org are all so very OS X? Graphics talent indeed...frighteningly enough, some of the most talented, simple, understated designs I've seen have come from the Windows camp. Shock, horror. I'll make an exception for UNO on the Mac, though, because it makes a truly horrid mix of horrid interface ideas into something a lot less horrid and a lot more unified.

      And I tend to make my KDE desktop look more like UNO. Eh, whatever floats your boat.
  • jamsea, on 10/12/2007, -11/+34XFCE owns all. Plus its the only thing that looks nice AND runs very smoothly on my old machine :P
    • nullx42, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9XFCE is a good transition for Mac users, but it lacks overall window control, imho. As far as KDE vs Gnome: My first linux system was Gnome by default so id say im partial to it. I still like all 3 (especially XFCE on the dream linux distro)
    • MrTea, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2The only thing that I didn't like about XFCE was the lack of shortcut keys. Otherwise, I thought it was good.
    • Fordi, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4@MrTea:

      I'm sure you mean defaults; it has a pretty good shortcut manager in the keyboard dialog.
    • strabes, on 10/12/2007, -6/+4IMO xfce panel is by far the best of all 3. It automatically compacts things to the sides, so if you mess up or remove something, you don't have to individually move all of your shortcuts back to their proper positions. That said, I prefer GNOME probably because it was on the first distro I used (ubuntu) and it has become the face of linux for me. It's what I'm used to, comfortable with, and most knowledgeable about. I don't think it's "better" than KDE or XFCE. It's just what I prefer. I know a guy on my floor that is really into KDE, and I'm cool with that....
    • MrTea, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3@Fordi

      I must've missed that.
  • fahadmp, on 10/12/2007, -41/+14KDE is for women and children
    • vuke69, on 10/12/2007, -24/+7And people with a fetish for Fisher Price inspired design
    • rolosworld, on 10/12/2007, -14/+17err... you mean Gnome right? Gnome is the one with the 'keep it simple' philosophy!
    • vuke69, on 10/12/2007, -25/+7"err... you mean Gnome right?"

      KDE = Windows XP with every possible app themed
      Gnome = Lean and mean Win2k
    • neko, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8"KDE = Windows XP with every possible app themed
      Gnome = Lean and mean Win2k"

      Ugh,.. .no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no!
      Both KDE and Gnome are light years ahead of anything I've seen windows offer. I mean come on people are still forced to drag/resize windows around by their titlebars and often end up maximising everything then hunting and pecking at the task bar.
    • vuke69, on 10/12/2007, -10/+3"Ugh,.. .no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no!"

      you you you you you missed missed missed missed missed missed missed the the the the the the the the the the point point point point point


      Gnome is nice & simple, a functional beauty.

      KDE is bling bling, I've got everything AND the kitchen sink (sorry, I mean Ksink), I may not be functional but I'm sexxxy.

      I should have qualified the previous post with something along the lines of "Perceived design mentality, from my point of view is", and maybe I should have used "::" instead of "=". I didn't think I need to be that blunt, but I guess the unwashed masses really have arrived. (probably why people can't leave off the /sarcasm tag anymore either)
    • GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Not Ksink, sinK.
  • IllBeBack, on 10/12/2007, -20/+10Linus "fires a shot" and accidentally hits Snoopy. And then Woodstock takes one for the team.
    • mc7winkie, on 10/12/2007, -10/+5Oh come on guys. That's where the money is at. Someone makes a light hearted joke referring to Snoopy, and all you can do is bury him?
  • vectorprime, on 10/12/2007, -14/+9Ooh! Linus patches for the weak spots in my favorite DE? Where do I sign up?
  • GaTechSwagger, on 10/12/2007, -28/+23I've ran across countless n00bs that tried Ubuntu as their first linux and hated it. I showed them a linux distro very similar to Ubuntu, only running a nicely configured KDE (Mepis)... and they loved it. I wonder how many potentially converted n00bs Ubuntu's Gnome-ness has cost linux.*

    Summary:
    KDE - Average desktop user all the way to power user.
    XFCE/Fluxbox - Older hardware, but you don't want to give up usability. Less pretty, still very powerful.
    Gnome - If you'd like your computer to be made by Fisher Price, and have enough horsepower to run this bloated and stunningly slow (compared even to KDE) behemoth.
    WindowMaker - Your PC is Billy the talking Bass or some other ridiculously underpowered machine

    * And I'm a Gentoo user, so go ahead and digg me down Ubuntu fanboys.
    • wolf08, on 10/12/2007, -5/+14I'm also a gentoo user (have been for well over a few years now), and I use Gnome. Each to his own. And I feel that you're trashing it for no reason.

      GTK seems to be more ubiquitous than kde in the non-linux-x86 world. There are windows gtk apps, there is OLPC, there is my n800 which (I believe) uses a stripped down gtk+ alongside maemo.

      To me, there seems to be less 'effects just for the sake of effects' if that makes any sense. Anyway, that's my opinion. I still like kde. I use it on another computer with Kubuntu, and it works fine. But I don't mess with it like I do my main gentoo box =).
    • Xenogis, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I actually like WindowMaker a lot and before I switched from Slack to Ubuntu it was my default WM.
    • StealthTomato, on 10/12/2007, -7/+17Believe it or not, I've run the ultimate speed test, where minor differences are exaggerated: I've run both environments on a 350mhz processor machine with 188mb of RAM.

      KDE proved more unstable. Menus often failed to open, apps crashed, and I lost my window decorators on several occasions.

      Gnome, on the other hand, was not nearly as pretty but ran like a charm. It was slow, as was KDE, due to the weak machine, but there were visible degrees of speed difference between KDE and GNOME. GNOME proved to be more stable and quicker.

      Nowadays, my machine's a lot more powerful, and I run Linux Mint with GNOME and occasionally start up Compiz just for grins. GNOME is rock-solid and has worked better from my experience.

      Moral of the story: my experience is different from yours is different from Ted's is different from Joe's and so on. Your PC may run KDE better, while mine might be more favorable in a GNOME environment. Use what works, quit whining about what someone else uses when their preferences do not alter your experience in any way.
    • Fordi, on 10/12/2007, -12/+7Xubuntu FTW!
    • thetictacaddict, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12People seem to think that XFCE is only for old or slow hardware. Personally, I prefer it to Gnome or KDE though my computer can run any of them. Easy to configure, good window manager, nice versatile panels, snappy... XFCE 4.4 is real nice, guys.
    • Nerevar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2wolf08: as far as gtk apps showing up more in windows, that's going to change when KDE4 comes out. Since it is using QT4 most KDE apps (assuming they've been changed to use QT4) will be very easy to port to OSX and Windows. The amarok team is already planning on porting to both of those OS's.
    • elebrio, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2Setting up beryl + Xgl isnt that hard in Xfce (depending on your hardware). So to say Xfce is less pretty is a misnomer.
    • Mactard, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1GAtech

      Man you have me cracking up , so true.
      I would also like to comment on the power user term being thrown around here and there.
      If you use Noob-Untu, there is a 99.9% chance you are not a power user.
      Sorry fanboys.
  • dicerandom, on 10/12/2007, -10/+58This is why I like Linus. He isn't afraid to make a ruckus and shout at people, which isn't terribly unusual in and of itself, but then he goes and actually backs up his statements with code.

    "I don't like this, it sucks for these reasons. This is how it should be done, and here is the code to do it that way."

    Hooray OSS!
    • GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Yeah Linus wrote 'Talk is cheap, show me the code'. You can always respect someone trying to produce something irrespective of political positions.
  • secleinteer, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4Anyone have a link to the actual posts on the mailing list?
  • vuke69, on 10/12/2007, -13/+50Am I the only one that could give a flying ***** which desktop Linus uses?

    Besides he probably uses emacs too, when we all know that vi is superior.
    • maninblac1, on 10/12/2007, -8/+24I'm going to have to say that emacs and vi both blow.

      Only someone with sadistic tendencies would write an editor with hundreds of keyboard shortcuts for navigation.

      Efficiency my a$$, please wait will i try and remember that esoteric combination of buttons

      ctrl + scr lock + scr lock + shift + X + ) + caps

      then enter and shift + ZZ
    • secleinteer, on 10/12/2007, -3/+25vuke69:
      Funny thing is, Linus actually hates emacs, and is a professed vim user ;)
    • vuke69, on 10/12/2007, -5/+20I know, I just haven't seen a really good vim vs. emacs flame war in years.
    • vuke69, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14@maninblac1

      Once you learn, it really is way faster.

      :wq
    • Vouksh, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6Nano ftw. I can't stand any other. Ctrl+X to save & quit, Ctrl+W to save, Ctrl+O to open, and an easy-to-use search. When I use vi or emacs, I'm extremely lost.
    • wshs, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@vouksh

      Actually, it's ctrl+w to search, ctrl+o to save. My favorite, however, is ctrl+_.
    • jon314, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"I'm going to have to say that emacs and vi both blow.
      Only someone with sadistic tendencies would write an editor with hundreds of keyboard shortcuts for navigation.
      Efficiency my a$$, please wait will i try and remember that esoteric combination of buttons
      ctrl + scr lock + scr lock + shift + X + ) + caps
      then enter and shift + ZZ"

      It's not that hard. I use vim and it took about 15 minutes to learn basic navigation. Example: Use "cw" to *C*hange a *W*ord. That's not esoteric. It's simple and makes perfect sense once you learn it.

      And it is more efficient. It's awesome that you can just go into vim from the command-line, go anywhere in the document almost instantaneously, change something, and get the hell out without barely ever leaving home row.
  • Homunculiheaded, on 10/12/2007, -3/+22what ever happened to simplicity being a good thing? The first linux DE I ever used was fluxbox, and my first impression was "wow this is awesome". I loved the simplicity. Now I do use Gnome over fluxbox (although that might change) but I don't think a simpler interface excludes power users, infact I would say the thing that really separates power users from average users (whether in windows or in linux) is how much time they spend in the command line, and proper use of shell/batch scripts, and it doesn't get any simpler than the command line.
    • childprey, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7Dug for Fluxbox. I'd love to see that get more recognition .
    • vuke69, on 10/12/2007, -3/+27My job is complete when I have replaced myself with a beautiful symphony of cron jobs.
    • sancho, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I'm another big fan of Fluxbox, though I've largely switched to Gnome since it is the default with Ubuntu (which has become my distribution of choice). Fluxbox basically gives you almost all the configurability you could ask for, but without much clicky-clicky for the new user. That is, there's no place to click for a menu (gotta right-click on the desktop) which will turn many people off. Me? Generally I have keybindings for my most common apps and I have an xterm for any odd program I need to run. It works for me.

      With Gnome, I have a very similar setup, which is how I can manage to use it. It's just so much faster to hit ALT+F2 and type gnomebaker than to dig through menus.
  • n3xg3n, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7i have to wonder if the patches will be included in future releases =]
  • MisterCookie, on 10/12/2007, -5/+15I love how within seconds these comments devolved into KDE vs. GNOME fanboy wars. For gods sake, no one cares! Use the one you prefer, not like its detracting from your own choice. (And kudos to anyone who can constructively criticize the other desktop without resorting to the following words: Sheeple, n00b, moron, etc.)
    • maninblac1, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3I was never aware that sheeple was used when refering to linux.
    • strabes, on 10/12/2007, -7/+12what's a sheeple? will it blend?
    • nazadus, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1@manicblac1

      It is very rare to find a group of people that are sheep in some manner or another. The thing that makes someone a sheep is blindly following the masses with no desire to make an informed decision yourself. I can think of a couple Linux groups that are like this.
    • sancho, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Evangelizing your desktop environment or window manager makes a lot of sense--the more users you have, the support you get, and the more likely you are to get improvements to the software.
  • daxsymbiont, on 10/12/2007, -10/+6linus is right. kde is way better. and with current ram/cpus, arguments of 'faster' are unbased, there's no noticeable performance loss unless you're on embedded or sth
  • pauldonnelly, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16I'm all for a good argument, but I can't understand why Linus cares so much about Gnome's deficiencies.
  • naio21, on 10/12/2007, -9/+4Cool! Let them kill each other!
  • jcaino, on 10/12/2007, -10/+1windowmaker FTW~!
  • digitalarcanum, on 10/12/2007, -2/+21In communist Linux you no choose desktop, desktop choose y- oh shi-

    ah ***** it. someone else finish this line for me.

    Before I get dugg down to hell for the russian reversal post, let me just say: does it really matter what window manager you or your circle of linux friends use? Most good distros offer a choice between gnome and KDE and a basic no frills WM and if they don't it's not like it's hard to install an alternate desktop. Dependency hell isn't what it used to be and even if you are having a hard time there's a metric ass ton of mailing lists you can join with people who can help you. Bottom line as stated previously: Linux is about choice. Choose wisely.

    Props to mr torvalds though for voicing his opinion and having the code to back it up.
  • stox, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6And the GUI wars continue. It used to be Motif vs OpenLook, and now it is KDE vs Gnome. Some things never change.
    • eelco, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Actually, to me it seemed there were a lot less Gnome vs KDE discussions than a few years back. Well, at least not since Ubuntu and Novell chose Gnome as the default DE. As KDE4 comes to a finish, you might expect a rise of these discussions at the end of this year, though.

  • buggles, on 10/12/2007, -9/+6I've always preferred Gnome. KDE reminds me of windows too much. (and motif over openlook for that matter!)
  • adolfojp, on 10/12/2007, -7/+20Nobody is forcing Linus to use Gnome. There wouldn't be any Linux without Torvalds but that doesn't give him the right to control any project he wants.
    • soudak, on 10/12/2007, -10/+14No crap. Linus usually comes across as a decent guy. But seriously, he needs to relax about this whole window manager thing. If the dude likes KDE then use it and shut your mouth. And if he doesn't like either, he obviously has the skill to write his own. He gets so bitchy and immature over this whole KDE/Gnome thing.
    • kettlechips, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11Why doesn't he fork it and call it Lome?
    • TiMMY8765, on 10/12/2007, -7/+5he wrote a patch, the gnome team didn't have to accept it
    • springah, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11hes submitted a patch... far from controlling the gnome project...
    • BT-Wang, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10he doesn't just bitch and complain, he wants to IMPROVE Gnome, for the sake of everyone who might use it. so they'll ultimately have a higher opinion of linux, success for linux means success for him.
      in this case I really don't think he's just being a dick to the gnome guys, or control the world.
  • user98887, on 10/12/2007, -7/+9Hey, If linus wants to fix up Gnome to his on liking, why not fork the project and create his own super desktop.
    He could call in Linome and it would be superior to every other desktop.
    That's what usually happens to most open source projects, someone disagrees and goes off in a huff starting a new fork of the project. Which is neither good or bad I suppose.

    oh, I lean towards Gnome
  • pkulak, on 10/12/2007, -14/+7haha. Linus is always such a dick.
    • democracysucks, on 10/12/2007, -12/+7He seems cool, but a dick, yes.

      What's funny is that most of these Kfanboys who are excited that Linus agrees with them about Gnome are probably running Kubuntu, and just last week I think it was, a video showed up here on Digg where Linus hesitated to give Ubuntu a good review. Of course, that'll make them want to switch distro's right away to get Linus' approval.

      People should listen to Linus just as much as they listen to anyone else. He may have started the kernel, but he's not the GNU/Linux god.
    • captaineuphoria, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2He isn't?
  • mrsteveman1, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3Gnome and KDE are doing OK they just need some refinement, which it seems neither camp wants to work on, its almost like the people in charge want it a certain way that they like it and anyone else doesn't matter. The incredibly annoying down arrows on everything in KDE illustrate this well.

    The biggest problem i see is the driver system, currently all drivers must load in kernel space, and to do this one must load a module that was compiled with an identical development environment as the rest of the system.

    For instance, to install VMware server the install script searches for a thumbprint of sorts to identify the exact system running, it then matches this to the hundreds of precompiled kernel modules that have to be included, otherwise it compiles its own on the fly. See the problem? Vmware had to include as many precompiled modules as possible because the alternative is to force every user to keep a build environment on every system they plan to use VMware on, which is insecure as well as inconvenient and non portable.

    Things like wireless-tools and such need to be intelligent and transparent. It should be exactly what windows does, so take note of that :D

    Well written, centralized documentation would solve a LOT of this, I've been using Linux for a long time and i still have no idea how to correctly edit the sudoers file without learning 6 different languages and a cool new (useless) syntax, even after reading the man pages. Part of the reason there have been so many Ubuntu how-to guides lately is because they fill the void that would otherwise be filled by something like the freebsd or Redhat system manuals, "here's how you do this this x y z and this together"

    If you really want Linux to succeed on the desktop you need to stop fighting about stupid crap that is almost meaningless compared to your goals, in this case i think Linus has a good point. Its easy to sit back and say "your wrong" but in a lot of cases with Linux, its totally true. The start to fixing all that is to point out the problems, and i think a lot of people just give up and move back to windows instead.

    I think a lot of time is wasted developing multiple projects that are supposed to do the same thing, and when none of them can do it well whats the point? Especially concerning security, if each distribution has to audit the kernel for security holes youve just wasted exponentially more time than would have been neccesary if things werent excessively disconnected and distributed.
    • nazadus, on 10/12/2007, -8/+2The problem that is faced is that someone, for example, writes a GUI for burning CD's to that taste the (s)he likes. To hell with everyone else, it's THEIR app. They then decide to open it up with the GPL thinking "well, if someone wants it to their taste, they can do it themselves". The problem is, people don't want to do it themselves, they want that guy to do what they want. This is exactly what Linus is doing. If he wants to make the change, the he needs to fork the project. The problem is, he can't put his energies in to both projects -- he just doesn't have enough time to do both as well as they need to be done. The end result would be what *he* wanted.

      The gAIM people act this exact same way, by the way.

      What I think is needed (but may be difficult or impossible to do) is to have a central authority that writes everything. For example, Ubuntu (which uses Gnome) should start replacing each and every application to suit the tastest of its users. It's users are the Grandma's and Joe Sixpacks, and thusly it should curtail to them. The problem is, I don't think even they have the capability to re-write each and every application.

      You might be thinking "Well, for Windows -- Microsoft doesn't write each and every application -- but people use it!" and you would be right, sort of. A business probably wrote most of those apps to which the developers must curtail to that group of people. This means Ahead wrote Nero and wrote it with a certain ideal for a certain group (or multiple groups) of users. They didn't write it just for themselves, they may have wrote it for admins (accepts parameters for scripting), power users (has all the tweaks until their hearts bleed), and Joe Sixpacks (defaults work good enough).

      It's late and I'm not entirely coherent.. I'm just hoping this ***** makes sense...
  • kettlechips, on 10/12/2007, -6/+15KDE has too many distractions to get any work done.

    Gnome's biggest problem is the under-powered open / save dialogues
  • jbus, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14Linus is a great kernel dev... But getting into high publicity wars with different projects is not good for Linux.

    Personally, I have switched from using KDE to using Gnome and I tend to prefer Gnome, though i do use both. Some people view Gnome as restrictive, but I like my desktop experience to be simple and functional. To me Gnome offerers the right balance. Although, I don't like everything about Gnome and agree the print dialog needs work, but then so does some KDE's UI.

  • democracysucks, on 10/12/2007, -10/+7Funny, I actually find myself getting more done in Gnome. I started with KDE, and made many attempts at going back, but I keep coming back to Gnome.

    By the way, KDE doesn't listen to people, either. For example, the single-click icon opening? People complain all the time, but KDE doesn't fix it.

    KDE seems to think that giving you 50,000 options, all right on the main toolbar, will make the user happy. The problem is that the ONE option the user actually wants...doesn't exist. KDE can't even get the list view correct (it shows a file named 20, for instance, between a file named 1 and 3). You can talk about how you can't change the screen saver in Gnome, and I agree that it sucks (though I just use a black screen anyway), but KDE can't even make it easy for you to add a program to the startup! Give me a break!

    I also hear lots of KDE Kfanboys ripping on Gnome people for thinking they're doing things right, yet if you offer a single complaint or suggestion to most of these KDE Kpeople, they'll Kblow-up at you and Kmod you down.

    While we're at it, you want to chat while away without sending your status message to someone every time they IM you in Kopete? Nope, sorry, can't do it. Obvious option, wanted function, yet not included in KDE. Want to have thumbnails for your videos instead of MIME icons? Sorry, can't do it. Want TRUE transparency for you Konsole? Sorry, kan't do it (my Gnome Terminal even shows my tvtime through it). Want to show HTML content by default in KMail? Nope, sorry, can't do it. Konq opens upon images and PDF's inside itself, which is horrible, because it CAN'T HANDLE THEM PROPERLY! Konq is an even worse web browser than it is file browser.

    I'm not trying to rip on KDE, because I try to use it. But this post is a sort of reaction against the extreme anti-Gnome mentality going on here. Gnome's got problems, yeah, but you Kfanboys are acting like black kids hanging other black kids for being black. Your generalizations are usually either 1) not true or 2) hypocritical.
    • deadbaby, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I think both KDE and GNOME need to learn the same lesson: Reasonable defaults are the key to a good UI. This doesn't mean you can't include more options -- it simply means you need to take a hard look at what features you turn on by default.

      KDE devs: Do we need 4 icons on the screen that do the same thing? Some applications have 3 or 4 different toolbars/sidebars/menubars. It's an embarrassment. Also it's time to drop the pastel color theme. Even Microsoft has finally realized how lame that stuff looks. It's time to move on.

      Gnome devs: What's wrong with including advanced options a user can turn on if they wish to use them? I support the idea of having a simple UI by default but as a power user I find Nautilus especially annoying to use.
    • DarkStalker, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Well, let's go through everything you said here.

      > By the way, KDE doesn't listen to people, either. For example, the single-click icon opening? People complain all the time, but KDE doesn't fix it.

      I've never heard of the complaint but if you want to switch to double click opening an icon in Control Center: Peripherials -> Mouse -> Double-Click to open icons (single click selects).

      > KDE can't even get the list view correct (it shows a file named 20, for instance, between a file named 1 and 3).

      That's an app-by-app decision. 1, followed by 2 and 3... makes sense to me.

      >You can talk about how you can't change the screen saver in Gnome, and I agree that it sucks (though I just use a black screen anyway), but KDE can't >even make it easy for you to add a program to the startup! Give me a break!

      You can drop a link to the program you want to startup into ~/.kde/Autostart/ or since sessions are saved by default, just be sure the program you want opened is open when you log out and KDE will automatically reopen it the next time you login.

      > While we're at it...

      Yes, let's keep going with this.

      > ...you want to chat while away without sending your status message to someone every time they IM you in Kopete? Nope, sorry, can't do it.

      Not sure why you would have a problem with this considering the fact that if you are away, it means you are NOT at the keyboard actively typing to others, but okay. I can see developers not changing that because, honestly, that doesn't make any sense. I'm unable to reproduce this behavior with Kopete on KDE 3.5.6, by the way.

      > Obvious option, wanted function, yet not included in KDE. Want to have thumbnails for your videos instead of MIME icons? Sorry, can't do it.

      Yes, you can do this in KDE. Your distribution just fails to install what you need to do it. I believe SuSE requires libarts1-xine installed. Gentoo users need to have artsplugin-xine installed. Once you have it installed, you can go into Control Center -> Desktop -> Behavior -> File Icons tab -> Video Files checkbox. If you do not have artsplugin-xine installed, you won't see the Video Files checkbox in the list at all.

      > Want TRUE transparency for you Konsole? Sorry, kan't do it (my Gnome Terminal even shows my tvtime through it).

      Use Compiz or Beryl. In the meantime, true transparency is being worked on for Konsole, but honestly, you can't find a much smaller problem than that.

      > Want to show HTML content by default in KMail? Nope, sorry, can't do it.

      First, that's a security issue, but if you want to do it anyways, Configure KMail -> Security -> Reading tab -> Prefer HTML to plain text.

      > Konq opens upon images and PDF's inside itself, which is horrible, because it CAN'T HANDLE THEM PROPERLY!

      Konqueror uses the KPDF kpart to display the PDF within itself. You can go into File Associations to make it open the PDF in KPDF if you choose, however it will display the same way since it's using KPDF anyways.

      > Konq is an even worse web browser than it is file browser.

      Myself and many others, including Apple, would disagree.

      >I'm not trying to rip on KDE, because I try to use it. But this post is a sort of reaction against the extreme anti-Gnome mentality going on here. Gnome's >got problems, yeah, but you Kfanboys are acting like black kids hanging other black kids for being black. Your generalizations are usually either 1) not >true or 2) hypocritical.

      Considering the fact that I just went through your complaints one by one, I would say that your generalizations are either not true or hypocritical (if that's even a word). Open Control Center and the Configuration options for the programs every once in a while and you'll be able to find a way to fix your annoyances. I know you are used to Gnome just not giving you options but just try it anyways.

      Thank you, come again!
  • blusteel, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8I love FOSS and all, but there sure are a lot of egomaniacs in it. I would love to see Linus Torvalds, Richard Stallman, and Theo de Raadt locked together in a small room. Professional wrestling would be put to shame.
    • BT-Wang, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6add Hans Reiser and pretty much any SuSE developer, then maybe you have something there.
  • thtroyer, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2I use Gnome (in Ubuntu). Had I started with a KDE based distro, I could quite well be using that right now. Rather, starting out with Gnome, I've grown fond of Gnome, and when I have to use a foreign desktop environment (be it Windows, KDE, or even another Gnome desktop), the best description would be 'ugh'. I don't even do major overhaul on the basic Gnome setup, but still, I very much prefer how I set up my own machines.

    Gnome, while easy to use and decently powerful, it can go overboard on simplicity. Too much of a good thing is bad. I could do without this overly simplistic crusade of theirs, but hey, Gnome works _very_ well for me right now and I have little room to complain.

    Stick with what you like and don't flame others' choices (though, do feel free to experiment with an open mind).
    • springah, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2"(though, do feel free to experiment with an open mind)"

      like with patches?
  • raldz, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1Freedom of _choice_, I use KDE.... Kubuntu for my laptop, and MEPIS for my desktops...
  • fleabag, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2ditch them both, go with fluxbox+xmodmap.. customization problem solved
  • galegria, on 10/12/2007, -10/+8linus torvalds is a pompous dick.
  • C0D3M3C4, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5If Linus doesn't like the way Gnome works the solution is simple.. Don't use it.

    Clearly there *are* a lot of users (like myself) that enjoy it's features and the way that it works. I don't go bagging how feature deprived a WM like blackbox is, because there are people out there who are happy with it and the way that it works.

    I don't see what his problem is here?
    • sancho, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2The difference is that Blackbox isn't getting into a position to be the "face" of Linux. Ubuntu is taking off in a big way, and the Window Manager they chose to use is Gnome. Gnome is pretty good for the neophyte Linux user, but it's sorely lacking certain advanced features. Yes, there are add-ons, but certain things will be difficult, if not impossible to simply tack on with an extra program (one of Linus' complaints is the handling of mouse events, which is hard-coded in the Metacity source and cannot be changed without altering the code).

      Advanced users can always go to a different WM or DE, but people in a stage between 'newbies' and 'power users' are going to be stuck. They face either the high learning curve of changing to a new WM/DE or the complete lack of the features they're looking for.

      And when you get right down to it, why don't these sorts of changes get put in? Configurability with a sane default is really just common-sense. We should be the masters of our computers--they should not decide for us how we want to do things. That is the flaw of the Windows and Mac worlds.

      The only thing I can come up with is time or jealous control over the direction of the project. If a lack of time is the reason that these features don't get added, then the Gnome team has no reason to reject Linus' patches. If it's jealous control... well, I guess we'll see.
    • springah, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4i dont understand what everyone elses problem is. hes said he doesn't like it (fair enough), made patches (cool), end of story?
    • ericcc, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Yeah but does he have to be such a dick about it?
    • BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3His problem is that he has:

      1. expressed an opinion and
      2. submitted patches

      Doesn't sound like much of a problem to me, just sounds like a lot of people think they own Linus and what he can/can't do.
  • rooneyet, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Gnome and KDE are both solid. I love both of them for different reasons. i started Linux with gnome, I got into it it was intuitive. KDE is not so easy, but has different ways to customize it.
    I use both. KDE more right now, it may switch with these new patches.
  • mrsteveman1, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3"If Linus doesn't like the way Gnome works the solution is simple.. Don't use it."

    Trying to neatly avoid any discussion......?

    the whole "to each his own' thing doesn't work here, its supposed to be a discussion, not a loop where everyone decides not to discuss anything.

    Linus shouldn't have to be looking out for the rest of the linux environment, thats the problem, and he cant very well sit by while everyone blindly screws around ignoring the rest of the world who actually uses these systems.
  • nukem996, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2How much you wanna bet that Linus doesn't use KDE or GNOME? He probably uses windowmaker or fluxbox, something very simple, very customizable, and very light weight.

    Blah just my $0.02
    • digdug2020, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1How much you wanna bet he doesn't? He uses KDE
  • BT-Wang, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7there was a time 3 or 4 years ago when I saw GNOME as nothing but equal to KDE, but ever since then GNOME has been "usability over features" train, and I was fine with it until they actually started removing features for the sake of simplification. this was a bad idea.

    hide features away behind an advanced tab, like everyone else, complete removal makes no sense and is not the way to go.
  • vikzzzz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3While we're talking about customization...
    I use Ubuntu+Gnome now because I've grown out of the "I can customize every aspect of the OS weeeeeee!" mind set. I simply do not care anymore of CFLAGS or configure flags or kernel optimization. I can customize Gnome enough to my likings with themes and stuff once, and get on with other important things to do on the PC. (Like be productive)

    As for KDE, I haven't used it in a while so I can't make a fair comment on it. I used to love it tho. But most of my required apps are GTK based, so I've never felt the urge to go back to KDE. In fact that was why I moved to Gnome in the first place - Why QT when most of what I need is in GTK?

    It's not about the DE - it's about the apps as far as I am concerned.

    I guess I've been using Linux for too long and actually got tired of mucking around with it. I suppose I missed that "it just works" quality of Windows. Let's be fair - Windows does make things work..usually..until it randomly crashes...oh wait.
    Ubuntu+Gnome is what comes closest to that "it just works" thing IMHO.
  • democracysucks, on 10/12/2007, -8/+8What's funny is that most of these Kfanboys who are excited that Linus agrees with them about Gnome are probably running Kubuntu, and just last week I think it was, a video showed up here on Digg where Linus hesitated to give Ubuntu a good review. Of course, that'll make them want to switch distro's right away to get Linus' approval.

    People should listen to Linus just as much as they listen to anyone else. He may have started the kernel, but he's not the GNU/Linux god.

    By the way, KDE doesn't listen to people, either. For example, the single-click icon opening? People complain all the time, but KDE doesn't fix it.

    KDE seems to think that giving you 50,000 options, all right on the main toolbar, will make the user happy. The problem is that the ONE option the user actually wants...doesn't exist. KDE can't even get the list view correct (it shows a file named 20, for instance, between a file named 1 and 3). You can talk about how you can't change the screen saver in Gnome, and I agree that it sucks (though I just use a black screen anyway), but KDE can't even make it easy for you to add a program to the startup! Give me a break!

    I also hear lots of KDE Kfanboys ripping on Gnome people for thinking they're doing things right, yet if you offer a single complaint or suggestion to most of these KDE Kpeople, they'll Kblow-up at you and Kmod you down.

    While we're at it, you want to chat while away without sending your status message to someone every time they IM you in Kopete? Nope, sorry, can't do it. Obvious option, wanted function, yet not included in KDE. Want to have thumbnails for your videos instead of MIME icons? Sorry, can't do it. Want TRUE transparency for you Konsole? Sorry, kan't do it (my Gnome Terminal even shows my tvtime through it). Want to show HTML content by default in KMail? Nope, sorry, can't do it. Konq opens upon images and PDF's inside itself, which is horrible, because it CAN'T HANDLE THEM PROPERLY! Konq is an even worse web browser than it is file browser.

    I'm not trying to rip on KDE, because I try to use it. But this post is a sort of reaction against the extreme anti-Gnome mentality going on here. Gnome's got problems, yeah, but you Kfanboys are acting like black kids hanging other black kids for being black. Your generalizations are usually either 1) not true or 2) hypocritical.
    • DarkStalker, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4See my response to your exact same comment higher up.. and no, I don't use Kubuntu.
    • jellygraph, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2which version of KDE were you using? All of those features work fine for me.
    • BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2?! Every criticism you level at KDE is simply not true. What's up with that?

      Are you our own community-internal version of the windows fans who claim there are no application icons "in linux" and that it will "never be ready for the primetime desktop" but have plainly never used it?

    • DarkStalker, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3This is one major reason why I hate the way so many distributions customize KDE because they often tend to move things, remove things, change things or just plain leave them out. The end user sees something they don't like and complains, but the real problem is with the distribution's packaged version of KDE, not KDE proper. More people should try running the real thing before complaining.
  • chaersi, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7It's settled then, we all move to Vista!!!

    /sarcasm
    • Clp727, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Off subject, but worth mentioning....
      I actually got to use an Acer laptop this week that is running Vista. I really liked the interface. I was trying to install Cisco VPN software on it so the user could work from home. No luck. Cisco has some BETA software available for Vista users, but it is too buggy and didn't work.
      I noticed that it is still very similar to XP, but access to certain files and folders is restricted. I think I will have to research Vista a bit.
  • urbieta, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Yes I vote completely in favor of forking GNOME! :D

    This new LOME should be a lot better.

    There are already some GNOME hacks reflecting the frustration involved!

    http://www.es.gnome.org/~telemaco/
    http://www.grumz.net/?q=taxonomy/term/2/9

    Im too tired/lazy to search for more ;)
  • Prod_Deity, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/000390.html

    It's been known for a long time that Linus dislikes GNOME........
  • prh99, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Given the choice use I end up using KDE far more than GNOME. I don't have anything against GNOME, I am just more familar with KDE.
  • sanguinemoon, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3KDE is not made for n00bs. If either of them is, that would have to be Gnome. The sacrifice a whole lot of configurability on the grounds that the menu options confuse the "average user" and "My Granny doesn't need that." When I first encountered Gnome in SUSE 9.1, I was struck by how dumbed down it was. (Yes, KDE was the default for SUSE back than, but I wanted to explore other options besides the defaults) Plus it looked like a retarded version of Mac OS 9. I tried to like Gnome a couple times, but I can't. Even trying to make it look like KDE with themes, its still terrible to use.

    Last night I switched from Ubuntu for both personal (the ***** fanboys) and technical reasons, and have no plans to even abominate the my new distro with any form of Gnome.
    • noBananas, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3 As a member of the Grandma group, I prefer KDE to Gnome. If you want to know why, read on.
      I switched to linux about 5(?) yrs ago. At that time I tried 2 distros, one with KDE as default and the other with Gnome as default. What I found as I struggled with each distro was that I wasn't able to configure my desktop the way I wanted with one distro but, with some effort, I could with with the other. As a complete noob, I knew nada about KDE or Gnome, but it was the distro that used KDE as its default desktop that I ended up chosing. What distro was that? - SuSE 9.0 and because of KDE I have stuck with SuSE ever since.
      Now up to SuSE 10.2, I have both KDE and Gnome desktops installed, and have been playing around with Gnome to try to understand why it is so popular. It does look prettier but I prefer functionality over eye candy.
  • Gneisbaard, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5I am a power user (I draw power all the time from the wall sockets, and at times from batteries) and I really like gnome.
    But one thing annoys me more than anything in the world. the file manager. What a ***** piece of ***** it is! Using the file manager is like having someone ***** all over you and then kicking you in the groin.
    • ishmal, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2I've never experienced that, fortunately.
  • Gomek, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4*****
    • Gomek, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Wow, is there some sort of filter? I can't see my own comment... :-/
    • Hindu_Wardrobe, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Well said.
  • gingernut, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Window Maker FTW !
  • jellygraph, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5I will never understand the Gnome love. I've tried over and over and the two major problems are: the ugliness of the UI and the stupidity of some of the important UI dialoges (ie. save). Ironically, for the desktop that prides itself on simplicity, I end up spending way more time than I need to doing some very simple things. KDE is brilliant in this respect. Often I can quickly get things done without even having to touch my mouse for several minutes.

    KDE is far from perfect, and I'm looking forward to KDE 4, but Gnome needs to get its act together IMO. The arrogance of their developers, when coming to making changes, pisses me off as well. Totally different from the KDE developers, who are really quite friendly and open to new things and ideas.

    You go, Linus! Don't mess with the man! :P
  • kdrlx, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4and i should abandon gnome coz linus says so ?

    !#$%@^&%&^#
    • BT-Wang, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2nobody ever suggested that.

      that would be like me accusing you of making an erroneous inference simply for the sake of becoming annoyed and then making a comment to feel better about it.
  • JasonCox, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4And once again we see more infighting in the OSS community.
    • GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Once again we see people producing in the OSS community. There is infighting everywhere. In OSS we make something practical out of the infighting by using it to generate competition.
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