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Linux vs. Microsoft: Who should be in our schools?
linux.com — "We're seeing the stand alone desktop PC as a colossal failure in schools." says Paul Nelson, "Often infected with viruses and subjected to student abuse, these systems can quickly turn into a useless but expensive pile of junk in the back of the classroom." So what's the verdict, should Linux get a shot at teaching our kids?
MrHairy2005- 1255 diggs
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- elvenrunelord, on 06/13/2008, -15/+218You know if those pcs are like you claim then the teachers are idiots. The better question to ask is why do we still have teachers in the classroom who are not technically savvy enough to keep their pcs in running order. I remember back in junior high school when I was accused of hacking the schools computers and pretty much blamed for it because in the principle's own words " Your the student in the school who would know how to do this type of damage." In the end the pc's were found to be messed up by an officer worker after it happened again several months later when I was forbidden computer access at the time. At that point the principle came and apologized and asked me if I could fix the damage....I pretty much told him to kiss my ass....go pay a professional.
- Kingoftherings, on 06/13/2008, -0/+63I had a teacher that taught Photoshop and HTML, and she constantly told us how she didn't know any of it.
The school has really sucky technology courses, the most advanced thing you can do is Javascript, and thats just a small unit in a larger class. I'd really like to have done some C++ programming or something other than making Powerpoints, Excel spreadsheets, Photoshop and HTML.- rooneyet, on 06/13/2008, -1/+45Amen to that. Computer classes in high school were not computer classes but rather typing. The worst part is that my adviser found out from my parents that I liked computers and so any class that one ever had to touch a PC in, it was "You like computers you'll like that class."
I wish we have a CS class in High School.- jaygeel93, on 06/14/2008, -12/+4Exactly the same story here too!
btw (on a lighter side)
I HATE ADOBE PAGEMAKER!!!
BISHOP MONTGOMERY HIGH SCHOOL SHOULD HAVE A Computer Science CLASS!!!! - franksmith, on 06/14/2008, -6/+18I love this....
"and subjected to student abuse"
Like the Linux boxes will NOT be abused???
ROFL - 0xception, on 06/14/2008, -0/+9I was lucky enough to be among the first year of students who got to enroll in a computer science classes at our high school... the first class was coding in VB but was an introduction to programming and computer science basics). The second class was programming in C++ and got further into data structures and basic algorithms... granted it was high school so nothing major but the second class was similar to CS1 in college.
however you had to be in advanced math to take the CS courses... Our school would have rocked if they had enough people enrolled to offer a Cisco networking class. but oh well.. Iowa's education system is fairly good. well that is it was, not so sure now w/ no child left behind in full force. - RogerStrong, on 06/14/2008, -2/+17My high school computer class started us off with a bit of computer theory: Describe the purpose of the accumulator, stack, registers, IO bus, data bus, etc.
Then we spent a few weeks working with punch cards.
Then we did some programming on the Commodore 8032s and Fat 40's - 80 column, 32K business versions of the Commodore Pet
Half-way through second term we got this brand new machine with an awe-inspireing 128K of RAM, called an IBM PC.
I immediately bought a proto-board and started building a 128K card for my Apple ][+ clone. - Ryan2845, on 06/14/2008, -0/+5Most highschools are starting to catch up. I know I took Basic and 2 semesters of C/C++ when I was in highschool ('03 grad). Problem was that most of the students knew more than the teachers. My first C class the teacher was literally taking the same class at night and was a day or two ahead of us in the material.
My district even has an "engineering highschool" now that focuses specifically on college type courses for computer science, aerospace, robotics, and web design, partnering with local engineering companies for high school internships. Students from any highschool district in the city can choose to switch and go to the engineering highschool, even if they don't live inside the normal zone, if it is an interest of theirs. - farfromperfectx, on 06/14/2008, -0/+4"You like computers so you'll like x"
I thought I was the only one who had suffered :'( - ubuwalker31, on 06/14/2008, -0/+6Why doesn't linux succeed in schools?
1) Lack of technical knowledge by teachers and administrators.
-One teacher isn't enough to support an entire school
-Crusty librarians and administrators who find that using anything different is too difficult
-Know-nothing administrators and school board members who get outraged that kids aren't getting
training on Microsoft products.
2) Linux isn't "no-cost" in comparison to Windows
-Installing linux still costs money, sometimes just as much as windows, if you include
support and other issues, like supporting legacy windows programs. I think that it would
be cheaper, but the bean counters don't listen.
-Microsoft offers attractive licensing deals to schools to keep them on Windows, making it
just as cheap, or cheaper, than linux.
Anyone notice that this article is from 2002, and still relevant today?
- jaygeel93, on 06/14/2008, -12/+4Exactly the same story here too!
- Toshibi, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1I see the problem with having Computer Classes in Schools not so much the teachers as who has to be the teachers. Someone like myself that has tutored from High School to College level courses and has run a Computer Repair Business as well as having programmed since I was 5 (1985 on an Apple II at my elementary school) should be able to get a job teaching some of these classes if I can pass a background check. In fact, there are a lot of classes that I think could be taught by professionals from the community which could also highlight real-world skills. Sure, school is all about teaching people how to learn on their own, but at the same time, having real experience can help to teach the caveats.
- jakem1, on 06/14/2008, -0/+4There is actually more to teaching than just understanding the subject and professionals in a particular field often make terrible teachers.
The problem with finding teachers to teach IT is that people with IT skills get paid more to work as IT professionals than as teachers. Schools can't afford to bring in people with expertise because they can't just pay different rates based on the subject being taught. Schools face the same problem employing IT staff to maintain their systems. They can't pay the network admin more than senior teachers so they end up with poorer quality staff maintaining their PCs.
Installing Linux won't solve this problem - if anything it will make the problem worse as it's harder to find cheap Linux experts. Additionally, it could be argued that there's little point teaching students to use an OS that they'll never encounter in the workplace or won't have at home to complete homework on. Most students don't use computers at school to become IT professionals. - Toshibi, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2I would teach the classes myself, for free, just because I love teaching. I would rather see kids learning and doing it from a teacher that cares and is knowledgeable about the subjectbecause that enthusiasm often rubs off. My favorite teachers in school were the ones that were actually excited about their subject.
- UNL1M1T3D, on 06/14/2008, -0/+3Toshibi why don't you go to your local high school and see if they have a computer club that you can get involved in teaching. I was in my schools computer club and we would have greatly benefited from having someone with your knowledge.
- jakem1, on 06/14/2008, -0/+4There is actually more to teaching than just understanding the subject and professionals in a particular field often make terrible teachers.
- Audacitor, on 06/14/2008, -0/+4I had a teacher like that, too. After 2 "computer" classes -- typing (something I'd been doing fluently since age 10) and MS Word (question from the final; "What does ctrl-x do?") -- I finally became eligible for Computer Graphics. I was really excited, first of all because it taught both Photoshop and 3D modeling, but also because I already knew the teacher, who was extremely passionate about her job and just a nice person besides. But when I got to it, it turned out she didn't know anything. She just handed us a bunch of tutorials from off the web, and left us to it. She took a genuine interest in what we came up with, but she just didn't understand the curriculum. She knew I did, though, and she was always asking me questions. I basically taught that class through her.
- UNL1M1T3D, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2That's very similar to my computer programming class in high school, except my teacher wasn't a nice person.
- aliguana, on 06/14/2008, -0/+4when I did computers in school... erm... 84-85, we had to write all the software ourselves. Our computer "teacher" was actually a maths teacher who was talked into taking the class, and sat there with a large "computer science" book in front of him that he taught from. The other kids would come and ask me if they had any problems, because the teacher didn't have a clue. Still, the course taught systems from the ground up, mainframes, binary, basic languages (basic and pascal) etc
I was amazed, years later, to find computer lessons consisted of writing Word docs, basic Excel spreadsheets, a bit of graphics.. jeez... you'd think the more sophisticated systems got, the more sophisticated the classes. Not so. Talk about dumbing down - disoriented, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2Sucky....really? I mean...really?
- disoriented, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2Sucky...really? I mean...really?
- HCIsland, on 06/14/2008, -0/+3As a reasonably "techy" high-school teacher who has made the jump from the public to independent system a few years back, I can safely say the issue is one of support. Boards are very quick to buy shiny machines but don't seem to understand that if they aren't backed by support (as they would in a corporate environment) then the exercise is doomed to failure.
If you expect that a middle-aged, English major to be able to single handed protect a machine (Linux or not) from a typical teenager, then you're delusional. With two teenage boys at home, and eight years teaching high-school computers, and can safely say no one should underestimate a teenager's ability to royally f---up a machine.
I know work at an independent school that promotes itself as a being ahead of the curve tech wise (which it is and isn't at the same time, but that's besides the point). They employ the equivalent of four, full-time, IT people to service about 500 students and staff. The last board I was with had one kid they just hired after his undergrad who serviced about ten or so high schools. That's a joke!
- rooneyet, on 06/13/2008, -1/+45Amen to that. Computer classes in high school were not computer classes but rather typing. The worst part is that my adviser found out from my parents that I liked computers and so any class that one ever had to touch a PC in, it was "You like computers you'll like that class."
- Callik, on 06/14/2008, -2/+54Either OS is fine as long as
a) you have teachers who can actually use the thing (ie not questioning why it "did that" every 2 minutes)
b) you teach more than how to use an office suite, or at the very least teach it well- Audacitor, on 06/14/2008, -0/+14Normally I would rave about how awesome Macs are, and I truly do think that OS X is the best for an educational environment, but Macs are just too pricey, even the minis. Linux, probably Edubuntu, is the best way to go.
- nmnnotmyname, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1There are some things I would not use OS X for... Since these kids probably will end up using PCs at their job, it's best they don't get used to the OS X ish environment. It's not the OS, it's the user environment...
In all fairness, they'll likely have to use Windows at their job. But Linux is relatively close to Windows for certain things... at least when compared to OS X.
- nmnnotmyname, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1There are some things I would not use OS X for... Since these kids probably will end up using PCs at their job, it's best they don't get used to the OS X ish environment. It's not the OS, it's the user environment...
- Audacitor, on 06/14/2008, -0/+14Normally I would rave about how awesome Macs are, and I truly do think that OS X is the best for an educational environment, but Macs are just too pricey, even the minis. Linux, probably Edubuntu, is the best way to go.
- Spuy767, on 06/14/2008, -21/+9They should probably go back to useing Macs. Sure, they require a little more up front investment, but the hardware generally has greater longevity, and unlike Linux, about which this fact is a crying shame, you can find enough mainstream software that skills learned on a Mac can be immediately taken into a PC workplace with little or no learning curve.
- Spuy767, on 06/14/2008, -8/+7I apologize for painting Macintosh Comptuers in a semi-positive light. I forgot briefly that it was a Digg no-no.
- TJATL, on 06/14/2008, -2/+6The problem is you did it in a MS vs Linux thread....you are right though.
- Audacitor, on 06/14/2008, -0/+5Normally I would agree; I'm a long long time Mac user, and I've got a lot of bad bad experience with Windows as well. But Macs are just to pricey, man. Keep in mind, computers are only one variable in the giant equation that is the K12 school's budget. If something can be gotten cheaper, then that's it. No questioning another option unless in the long run it turns about to be cheaper. Whether or not it's best for the student goes out the window.
- cloud909, on 06/14/2008, -7/+1Dude, shut up and go back to MacRumors or something. Your Apple praise isn't welcome here.
- raydeen, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2The only argument that I would have is that current Macs as a rule don't necessarily have greater longevity. I think the build quality has really gone down over the last few years. I work at a school that has both Macs and PCs and frankly the Dells and Gateways have long outlived the Macs. We've had to dispose of PCs that have outlived their usefulness but have had Macs that were only 1-3 years old that had to be repaired/replaced many times due to defective logic boards, memory, LCD inverters, etc. Macs are great from an IT standpoint in that they are insanely easy to reimage and maintain but it seems they just aren't what they used to be. I've got an old iMac from '98 that's still ticking. I don't know that a Mac bought today will still be running in 10 years.
- armo, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2We bought a class set of macs last year for our school, never again. We've had more problems with the hardware (not the software) than anything else in the school and their support in the UK is complete *****. Taking broken hardware to a store 30 miles away in person is just not good enough.
- Spuy767, on 06/14/2008, -8/+7I apologize for painting Macintosh Comptuers in a semi-positive light. I forgot briefly that it was a Digg no-no.
- Skwerl, on 06/14/2008, -0/+22Your idea is great, but in California, contractually teachers are not allowed to work on their own computers. My mother is a high school computer teacher, and she doesn't even have the ability to adjust the time on the clock, let alone write access to the disk.
It's not the teachers that are the problem, it's union contracts that keep incompetent sysadmins working long after they should have been fired, do you really think it's the teachers job to secure the computer from outside attacks?- Audacitor, on 06/14/2008, -6/+1I think students should be put in charge of the computer system's operations. Let's face it, younger people on average are way more adept at computers than their older counterparts. I myself, at age 16, remotely installed a VNC server on my grandmother's computer so I could give her tech support from across the country.
The trick is knowing which student to hand everything over to. You're going to need an adult who is at least competent enough to know how to back up the system, and the student you pick needs to be exceptionally trustworthy. Unfortunately, good grades and a spotless discipline record do not necessarily indicate the right person. There was a kid in one of my classes like that. Straight A's, three or four extra curricular activities, one in which he was on his way to being state champion (speech, I believe) until one day he just went postal on his girlfriend's car for some unknown reason.- DangerDaz, on 06/14/2008, -1/+8So you would rather have some teenager managing the school network than a professional who went through years of training? That can only end well.
- marx2k, on 06/15/2008, -1/+2Teenagers aren't necessarily better at computer systems administration these days. They know how to point and click, they know how to use the web. Being able to update your MySpace page in under 30 seconds isn't really something IT departments in schools are looking for.
- Audacitor, on 06/14/2008, -6/+1I think students should be put in charge of the computer system's operations. Let's face it, younger people on average are way more adept at computers than their older counterparts. I myself, at age 16, remotely installed a VNC server on my grandmother's computer so I could give her tech support from across the country.
- snapcase, on 06/14/2008, -1/+29The real blame does indeed rest with the teachers and any tech staff that may be employed at these schools.
For a good example I have some personal experience with this. When I was in High School I took a Cisco class. First off the class was a joke and the teacher literally gave us all the answers to every test. But more importantly I found out the fun way that the teacher and tech support didn't know jack. One Friday during class, I was bored and decided to right click on the Nvidia control panel in the system tray and set the screen rotation to 180 degrees. I figured someone would probably take a few minutes getting it back to normal if anything. I came in on Monday, to find that my entire computer was missing. The teacher immediately called me over to explain what happened. I told him and he informed me that neither he nor the tech support could figure out what was wrong and they had to actually Reformat the HDD! When he realized how stupid they were he let me off with a warning and noted that with their original assumption that I took some malicious action they were contemplating kicking me out of the class. It took about a week for them to finish "fixing" the computer and have it hauled back up to the computer lab.
If they hired people with at least a shred of competence then there wouldn't be much problem with viruses and barely operable computers.- thegodfaza, on 06/14/2008, -0/+6Same thing happened to me though they didn't reformat the HDD. They put a peice of paper on it saying "Out of Order".
- Toshibi, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2Competence in an area owned by a strange mix of the Government and Unions...
hahahahahahahahaha
Most of the time if these people were competent they would have jobs in the private sector. - outlaw686, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2I worked for Bell's internet tech support there was a computer with a monitor broken sign on it. The only problem was it wasn't plugged in. It wasn't long after I got fed up with these idiots and quit. To be fair there were a few people who knew what they were doing but the rest of them were just anyone they could find off the street to hire.
- ValDeV, on 06/14/2008, -17/+16I have currently UPGRADED from Windows XP Pro SP3 to Ubuntu linux with wine and I can say first hand I've never had a problem.
Heres the issue elven, school computers are built on low budget computers made from the things that are usually thrown away at manufacturing plants. So its not usually a student who breaks the PC (Not saying its not sometimes, granted because of the cost most schools dont have the proper materials or programs at hands to keep up with virus's or students learning the newest way to hack in).
Most schools use computers for the following reasons
1) Typing in Microsoft Word, Excess, Powerpoint
2) Internet research
3) Digital work, and website programming
4) In rare cases programming.
Which of these is not possible with better alternatives on Ubuntu linux?
NONE.
Plus you cannot get virus's on linux, and there are many more security and logging software.
And if your programming for Windows, WINE will let you do so. Just build programs via DEV C++, compile, and run through WINE to see the outcome.
@Spuy: UBUNTU>MACS>PC>Most Other Linux compiles, Mac is pretty dont get me wrong. It runs better then ubuntu and pc times a million. But ubuntu wins simply because half the stuff on mac is never used or just for making it pretty. Macs are cool, and fun, and safe, dear god Mac is the F***ing Wii of the operating system market.
Breakdown
PC/Windows = Gamers/People who just dont like to leave what their used to
Mac/Apple = People who like pretty things, even price.
Linux/Ubuntu = Cheap bastards (with WINE = Gamers) who realized it looks nicer then Vista, and it more secure then a concrete block. Also server owners.- TJATL, on 06/14/2008, -4/+7so you say macs run better then ubuntu, but since it has things you don't use, like iLife i assume, it doesn't win? re tard ed.
- theaceoffire, on 06/14/2008, -0/+3Mac doesn't win in this case because it is too expensive for school use.
Linux works on almost everything, no matter how old it is... there is an OS somewhere that can use it effectively, for free.
- theaceoffire, on 06/14/2008, -0/+3Mac doesn't win in this case because it is too expensive for school use.
- Audacitor, on 06/14/2008, -6/+3I'm sorry, but there is hardly anything on a Macintosh system that someone doesn't need. Maybe you don't need the iTunes visualizer, but I've seen it show up in certain scenes on prime time television shows. That's only example I can give, really, because I'm having trouble finding things that could be perceived as non-useful.
- outlaw686, on 06/14/2008, -2/+9Realize fanboys are just digging him down because he said mac's were "For people who like pretty things, even price" while disregarding the rest of his arguments which were legitimate. Dugg up
- raydeen, on 06/14/2008, -0/+3Dugg up for 'cheap bastards'. :) In all seriousness, why wouldn't someone take the free product over the paid product if the free product is just as good if not better? Which Ubuntu and Linux in general is. I would even argue that the best way to set up a Windows machine is to install Linux first and then install Windows in a virtual environment (VMware, Virtualbox, etc.). You get near native speeds and if something goes wrong and Windows gets fubar'd, you just delete the corrupted disk image and copy a new one over. There won't be any game playing but pretty much every other program will work like a charm.
- dazparkour, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1Internet research? I use firefox on windows and linux - there is no difference. What you smokin' billy?
3) Digital work, and website programming
4) In rare cases programming.
Programming only needs a text editor. Linux has those. Checking the programs work, in the case of a web app, requires a web server, most of which are linux and a web browser. See: firefox.
As for programming in general, I can and have use both. I am a full time developer. None of the tools I need, from conception to code to debugging is not available on either OS. Most of the tools I use produce windows and linux versions.
Full Disclosure - This laptop runs Vista because it isn't mine, it was bought for me when I started my job and I don't want to explain why I want to waste a windows license the company paid for by not using windows.- spxiii, on 06/14/2008, -1/+1Put Vista in VMware, then the license isn't wasted.
- inksmithy, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2spxiii actually has a point there.
If you have to use Windows, then use it, but have everything running on a virtual machine which is renewed every day via some sort of cron? The Cisco course I am doing at the moment is like that and I daresay they have no problems whatsoever with security. The students can access the net through the VM only after they have managed to get the network topology correct and they have full access to the VMs system before during and after, because they are safe in the knowledge that the VM is going to be trashed at 5pm and given a new image.
Makes all sorts of sense.
- TJATL, on 06/14/2008, -4/+7so you say macs run better then ubuntu, but since it has things you don't use, like iLife i assume, it doesn't win? re tard ed.
- Rikkochet, on 06/14/2008, -1/+17You'd be terrified to know how little teachers know about all the rest of the subjects.
/friend and acquaintance of at least 4 public school teachers off the top of my head...- TJATL, on 06/14/2008, -6/+3people are teachers because they can't do anything else.
- Amiga500, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2All that learning gets in the way of the sex.
- inksmithy, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1A saying which is not entirely correct but funny all the same:
Those who can, do, those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, teach PE.
- Tenoq, on 06/14/2008, -1/+5The problem isn't the teachers - the problem is the schools and government education system isn't interested in paying enough for SKILLED teachers. You can't expect a teacher earning $35-40k AUD to be more computer savvy than all the students they're teaching - they haven't been trained for it and aren't getting paid enough TO be trained for it.
I don't know of a secondary education system which pays it's teachers enough for them to be a master of all aspects of the classroom - especially technology. Keeping up with IT requires thousands of dollars of training per teacher EVERY YEAR. It's just not in education budgets. Don't blame 'idiotic' teachers when they haven't been given the means or any reason to skill up.- aliguana, on 06/14/2008, -0/+3no, it's not the teachers, it's what they're being told to teach. They basically follow a Microsoft Office syllabus, so that students can leave school as good admin workers. Most kids these days don't get to use programming until degree level (unless they teach themselves). Basically, computer classes should be renamed "office skills", because thats all they are.
- terrix, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1I agree, I'd be very much interested in becoming a teacher if I was getting paid anything close to 80% of what I could make working in the private sector, I'd be teaching programming, Linux, or whatever they needed to know. I'd teach Windows too because its what is used in the majority of places.
I had a Computer Science AP teacher who was hired into the position because she had some experience with "punch cards" in college. It was her first time teaching the class, she wouldn't barely let me in the class because my other grades weren't great. By the end of the semester students were telling me I was the teacher since I had learned more about the language and was figuring out errors in code faster then the teacher could.
- JettaMan, on 06/14/2008, -1/+7As if it has to be one or the other. That's the problem with government run schools. If we had a free market of schools they would all do whatever they wanted to (i.e. diversity, variety). Statist idiots all want one solution for everyone.
- Cyphase, on 06/14/2008, -1/+7I was afraid no one else reading this story would share my opinion. You're absolutely right. Get the government out of education entirely. Let individual schools run by private entities choose which OS they want to run.
BTW, I'm a Linux user. I don't use Windows at all.- renegadeafk, on 06/14/2008, -2/+1That is a horrible idea.
- aaaantoine, on 06/16/2008, -0/+0We already have private run schools. And they charge tuition. Tuition that many parents simply cannot afford.
Think of all the children that go to public schools. Now, cut out public schools altogether. How many of those children's parents can afford to send them to a private school? The rest will be home schooled by their parents. Or, not educated at all.
Taking away publicly funded schools is kinda like riding through the projects in a chauffeured Rolls Royce and flipping everyone off from out the rear passenger window. And long-term, the entire nation will suffer due to a great surplus of Americans with zero hours of education.
Where would you rather see that money go to? The military? - gcopenhaver, on 06/18/2008, -0/+1Some reasons that private education is so expensive is that it's a small market due to the requirement that localities must provide public education, and the various government regulations that create unnecessary overhead resulting in lower efficiency
Public education is at least as expensive as the most expensive private schools, but the quality of education is not even close. You just don't directly see the costs of public schools since the costs are taken away from your and everyone elses pay checks little by little each (even if they don't have children going to public school) week and/or borrowed from the Fed or China or elsewhere.
If public schools were abolished, the free market for education would expand greatly and competition would increase resulting in better education at lower cost. Private schools would compete with each other, rather than currently where they're usually only competing with public schools.
Public schools, like every other government institution, waste incredible amounts of money. A department in a public school will spend more money on supplies to purposely use their entire budget, so they can justify having at least that much money in their budget the next year in case they think might need it. The increased demand on these supplies and services caused by this wasteful spending drives up prices for some of the supplies and services that the private schools actually need, resulting in an artificially higher-than-would-be cost for private schools.
Not to mention if public schools were abolished, then people that don't have children to send to school wouldn't have to pay for it anymore. The government's injustice against it's citizens to pay for public schools would no longer exist.
Here's a good article about this: http://mises.org/story/2937
- Cyphase, on 06/14/2008, -1/+7I was afraid no one else reading this story would share my opinion. You're absolutely right. Get the government out of education entirely. Let individual schools run by private entities choose which OS they want to run.
- SPThom, on 06/14/2008, -1/+1I'm fine with the expectation that teachers should know enough about computers to handle the basics of the operating system and office suite, to integrate the technology into their curriculum, and for goodness sakes, to know how to do a simple search on Google or Wikipedia (which unfortunately is beyond the skillset of many teachers). But they should NOT be tasked with providing the security and maintenance of computers in skills. Even if they have the skill sets, most of them do not have the time.
If the computers aren't getting enough support, it's a failing of the IT staff, which is irrelevant to this article. The question is, with a competent IT staff in place, which is easier to maintain? - DeathfireD, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2Back when I used to work as assistant network admin for a high school in my town, I found the grate majority of the teachers knew nothing other then how to use the teacher grading tool or how to use IE and Outlook. Anytime there was a problem is was always due to a teacher visiting a site using IE that contained malware and slowed down their system...etc. By the end of the year I had come to the conclusion that teachers will only learn the things they need to learn in order to teach a class. So if the school board tells them "Go learn how to use X program, heres the disk install it on your PC at home" they will. However if its not required they wont spend the time unless their kid happens to show them. I found my self installing firefox with adblock on every PC I had to clean up, which resulted with loads of "where is the Internet icon?" questions since the IE icon was replace with a nice firefox one and they had no idea what firefox was :(.
I think linux would be a great step in the right direction. As long as the distro is kept basic showing only the icons of programs the teach will need. - roebeet, on 06/14/2008, -1/+1I'm sorry, but I wouldn't blame the teachers. You might as well ask every office worker to be more technically savvy on their work PC's. This is not what teachers are being paid for. If they take up the mantle and try to learn on their own, more power to them.
Ideally, each school would have at least one dedicated IT person that would handle these issues. But, we all know that's not going to happen (at least in public schools). I think Linux, or any other solution where the desktop is locked down to avoid abuse, would be a step in the right direction. - nbyn, on 06/14/2008, -1/+3Let me ask everyone this question:
If you are tech savvy, would you be teaching school?- inksmithy, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Yes. I am tech savvy and I would love the opportunity to teach something like computing, which is a subject I am passionate about. However, I once took a class in TESOL (Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages) and was fairly dismayed to learn that while the class I was doing would qualify me to teach English in Indonesia or Thailand, if I wanted to teach anything at all in Australia (where I was based at the time) I would have to take a three year degree to do it. Three years of playing with brightly coloured bits of string and learning what and why 3 year olds associate with. Couldn't have faced it.
- linuxpenguin, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2The problem is that nowadays computers are used for many purposes. What you're saying is correct for teachers teaching computer science-type courses, but these days computers can be used in just about any course. A biology teacher might want you to look up the side effects of different diseases on the Internet or use computer materials for class, but that doesn't mean they know much anything about computers.
- flarn2006, on 06/14/2008, -0/+6Remember when Google had its logo in Braille (http://www.google.com/logos/braille.gif) that one day? Well one time I saw that at school and I called my teacher over to show it to him, and I got in trouble because he thought I was changing the settings!
- Kingoftherings, on 06/13/2008, -0/+63I had a teacher that taught Photoshop and HTML, and she constantly told us how she didn't know any of it.
- serviesiscool, on 06/13/2008, -24/+1I feel you my teacher in computer graphics dont know ***** so she ellected me as the teacher where the ***** is my paycheck and sickdays.
- wonderchemist, on 06/14/2008, -0/+22Waiting for you when you pass 5th grade English.
- Spuy767, on 06/14/2008, -0/+4My graphic design teacher in college used to get mad as hell when I'd let her in on shortcuts that would save classtime when we were learning photoshop, illustrator, and premiere. I can't remember the number of times I was drug out in the hall and bitched out for, "making me look like I don't know how to do my job."
- init100, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2Many teachers have a hard time accepting that some of their pupils know more than they do. When I was around 10 years old, I had a teacher that would sometimes be wrong about certain things, and I usually corrected her. When I later moved and changed to a new school, my new teacher had spoken to my old teacher and obviously heard of this as she told me that I couldn't correct her, regardless of how wrong she were. She thought that she was the authority on everything, and standing up in front of the class and showing that she was wrong would be unacceptable to her, as it would break that illusion among the other kids.
- Spuy767, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1. . .wrong she was. . . In the spirit of correcting people.
- init100, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2Many teachers have a hard time accepting that some of their pupils know more than they do. When I was around 10 years old, I had a teacher that would sometimes be wrong about certain things, and I usually corrected her. When I later moved and changed to a new school, my new teacher had spoken to my old teacher and obviously heard of this as she told me that I couldn't correct her, regardless of how wrong she were. She thought that she was the authority on everything, and standing up in front of the class and showing that she was wrong would be unacceptable to her, as it would break that illusion among the other kids.
- Fangsinmybeard, on 06/13/2008, -22/+6Thus is the fate of monopoly, where control doesn't allow for correction or dynamic adaptation when faced with catastrophic failures in the product or supply chain.
- sqrt7744, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1can you please repeat that again slowly?
- liquidsilk, on 06/13/2008, -39/+4should always be microsoft because that's what we learn to use as general population in the real world. unless linux becomes more popular than microsoft ;) I grew up with apple because the schools bought apple. it wasn't until they converted to microsoft that i finally learned pc in high school.
- Kingoftherings, on 06/13/2008, -1/+20Where do you think more Linux users will come from?
- liquidsilk, on 06/18/2008, -2/+0when most businesses convert to linux, the rest will follow but until then. microsoft it is.
i'm not smashing linux. i'm just saying, kids should learn what would most likely be used while they're growing up. please keep in mind that not everyone is going to be as computer literate as the digg community.
- liquidsilk, on 06/18/2008, -2/+0when most businesses convert to linux, the rest will follow but until then. microsoft it is.
- sk11, on 06/14/2008, -2/+9"should always be microsoft"
What makes you think microsoft will always dominate? The next big player might be google or IBM (again). We may laugh at today's broadband speeds in 10 years time, when internet based software might become more common. Ten years is a long time in computing, don't you remember when nearly everyone had an Amiga? - fantasticFlan, on 06/14/2008, -0/+6So you have clearly demonstrated that you're not stuck with the first OS you experience.
- srg13, on 06/14/2008, -0/+4Back in primary (elementary) school, I first learnt on Apple IIe computers...
Do they use them in the real world now? Likewise, do you think that anyone will be using Microsoft products in 10 years time? - init100, on 06/14/2008, -0/+3"should always be microsoft because that's what we learn to use as general population in the real world."
I learned CP/M, Comal, DOS and Windows 3.1 in grade school, but I have never used any of them professionally. Did I suffer for this? Hardly. Learn to use computers, not specific applications and operating systems. Then your transition between them won't be much of a problem.
- Kingoftherings, on 06/13/2008, -1/+20Where do you think more Linux users will come from?
- weizbox, on 06/13/2008, -15/+107Linux for the most part. I don't want my tax dollars being spent on Microsoft software unless its a class specially aimed at learning Microsoft(which is quite valid as most of the world uses Windows). No need to run Windows on the library comps or for word processing, etc though, and I think that makes up the majority of computers being used in schools. Keep it free when the purpose isn't to learn something you pay for.
- Amiga500, on 06/14/2008, -8/+1Wouldn't you need a job with taxable income before you could pay tax dollars?
- leakus, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2Do you know "weizbox"? Income taxes aren't the only taxes you pay anyway. There are for example also taxes on things you buy in stores if you haven't noticed.
- andyakadum, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1Hey! everyone knows its only the Debian users that don't have jobs.
- dissection, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1You mean have house to pay property tax.
- PirateNinja365, on 06/14/2008, -4/+1The problem is that for the overwhelmingly vast majority of students they don't know how to run Linux. I participated in my school district's tech committee and one of the topics addressed was Linux vs. Mac vs. Windows. We looked at some other schools who had made the switch to Linux. For some they had great results, but for others computer usage took a huge decline because almost nobody (student-wise) knew how to use Linux. The committee's final decision was that Mac was better suited to our school. The reasons: student's familiarity, a contract that included tech support and repair (we have 15 or so tech staff for nearly 20 schools), teacher's familiarity, and no switch was required (we currently had macs and the switch to Linux would have been somewhat time consuming).
- SpeedSteamBoat, on 06/14/2008, -0/+5There is practically no difference in usability between any of the OSs when all your are doing is word processing, web surfing, and possibly the occasional calculator equation.
Honestly, what sort of usability issues did people have that rendered them unable to use the systems? Or did they just say "That doesn't look familiar" and not even bother trying to use them.
From the perspective of a student researching stuff online or typing a paper, the only real difference between these systems is where the icons are and things look a little different.
- SpeedSteamBoat, on 06/14/2008, -0/+5There is practically no difference in usability between any of the OSs when all your are doing is word processing, web surfing, and possibly the occasional calculator equation.
- Amiga500, on 06/14/2008, -8/+1Wouldn't you need a job with taxable income before you could pay tax dollars?
- bittermang, on 06/13/2008, -12/+94Both? And Mac? Why does there have to be exclusivity?
The point of a class is to learn, and part of learning about the platform is history and application. Why do things today work the way they do based on the way we used to do things and where things are going. We're not having this conversation about our math classes, should our students learn Algebra or Trigonometry? We're not having this conversation in the history classes, Colonial America or Babylonia? So why must we have the conversation in the computer lab?
The curriculum in most computer classes I have taken is criminally behind the curve. They basically teach you that when you type stuff in Word, it makes a letter and that Excel can do math. Nothing about the raw basics people need: What is a file? What is a folder? What is the difference between a "Hard Drive" or "RAM" and why are they both often referred to as memory despite being completely different? How are files kept inside of the hard drive? Understanding a directory tree. The Internet and why you should not try to open every file you download from it. Just this basic knowledge would be worlds greater than the courses I have experienced. It would stop people from believing that if they deleted a shortcut or an alias that the entire program is gone. It would keep people from telling me that they need to bring their monitor in to the shop because it got a virus.
And best of all, the knowledge is platform independent. It gives you the basic skills you need to tackle the differences between Unix, and Windows. It gives you the confidence to want to learn more about this machine on the desk. It does not indoctrinate you in to believing that you need a copy of Microsoft Word.
Part of the problem is the schools themselves are inept with the technology they're given. Just the other day the community college was selling their old Pentium 4 800mhz machines because they had just gotten new hardware. $35 a tower. $35? For a machine that is still good, can still run basic office applications, could have Linux installed on and become a *nix learning environment. They don't even know what they have, and are being careless with their assets. Then in five years when the next batch of computer upgrades happens they'll sell those machines for $35 or complain that they have no money in the budget for computer upgrades.
The answer for both groups; the students, and the institution which teaches them, is there needs to be more education about computers across the board. Picking and choosing what we learn or what platform we learn about is detrimental to the entire process.- BlueSkyfish, on 06/13/2008, -0/+20It's not as simple as that. Public schools aren't free to make that decision, its up to the school district. Companies like Microsoft (and in some cases Apple) pay the school district for exclusivity. Most districts need the money badly so they take it, then leave the individual schools to pay for it. Most of the people making decisions in the district are either too corrupt or too incompetent to see the benefit of open source technology.
- Simonft, on 06/13/2008, -7/+6It is also hard to integrate both mac and Windows PC's together, because if there is one main server you have to be quite good a computers to make it work.
- PabloMac, on 06/14/2008, -2/+10Nope.
- elipabst, on 06/14/2008, -8/+1Yeah it will be pretty exciting when OSX gets support for Exchange server...next year. Welcome to 1996!
- Tenoq, on 06/14/2008, -0/+4So you're saying Exchange has been around for 12 years and it's still buggy as hell? Wow, nice. :P
- PabloMac, on 06/14/2008, -2/+10Nope.
- SuperMoses, on 06/14/2008, -1/+11It's also not cheap to get all OS's (unless it's Linux)
- V3NOM, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1I agree that high school computer classes hardly teach you anything. I'm just holding out hope that, when the next generation comes through, the "average" adult computer user would have enough basic computer knowledge that they aren't helpless the moment a RAM chip goes bad or something.
- airtran, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1I totally agree with you. At my school (8th grade) we have iMac G3's running OSX Tiger, it takes about five minutes to log in, and another two minuets to start Firefox. People can't blame the teachers or anything because the technology dept. is where the iddiots are. You guys are talking about firing teachers when most school dept.s simply don't even give a tutorial on how to use something. So what if they aren't the fastest about using it, because ya know what---a computer isn't what there job is, it's teaching kids guys!
- itsthebrod, on 06/14/2008, -5/+4Why waste students time making them learn operating systems they'll likely never use the rest of their life? Macs, fine... The art students will get a benefit from that, but only the 1% of students that go into computer science fields will possibly benefit from learning Linux. What's the point? Virtually every business and company out there runs Windows and depends on it to run. Don't even kid yourself and say that's not true.
- iindigo, on 06/14/2008, -1/+3That may be the case now, but believe it or not, things can change. The world is not immutable. Even if Windows is the prime operating system in businesses now, it won't hurt to give students knowledge of over operating systems they may encounter in the future. Who knows, anything could happen given the right circumstances. Linux or Mac OS may become king, or hell maybe some OS we haven't even imagined yet may take the world by storm.
TLDR: It's better for students to have knowledge they never use than for the students to end up having to use something they have no knowledge of.- itsthebrod, on 06/14/2008, -3/+2Right, and we could also sit around playing "what-ifs" and imagining that one day, perhaps zombies will rule the world and because of that, we should all be taught how to handle shotguns now... You know, "just in case."
Linux fanboys need to recognize that Linux isn't for everyone. It has its strengths and weaknesses, just like every other OS, and it's not the end-all solution (nor will it kill Windows anytime soon). It has a specific place and that place isn't in the mainstream. Way too many issues prevent it from becoming mainstream. When you can walk into the computer store and see a rack of Linux apps the size of Windows apps, then we can talk about using it in schools.
- itsthebrod, on 06/14/2008, -3/+2Right, and we could also sit around playing "what-ifs" and imagining that one day, perhaps zombies will rule the world and because of that, we should all be taught how to handle shotguns now... You know, "just in case."
- marx2k, on 06/15/2008, -0/+0So instead of generalizing computer education into teaching actual programming, actual graphics design, actual mathematics, etc, your solution is to teach students how to interact with a specific operating system and only apps specific to that operating systems? Sounds like a great idea. We should constrain all education to subjects and educational material that will benefit the corporations that pay the schools currently (either outright or by giving reduced licensing fees) to teach their version of education.
.... or not
- iindigo, on 06/14/2008, -1/+3That may be the case now, but believe it or not, things can change. The world is not immutable. Even if Windows is the prime operating system in businesses now, it won't hurt to give students knowledge of over operating systems they may encounter in the future. Who knows, anything could happen given the right circumstances. Linux or Mac OS may become king, or hell maybe some OS we haven't even imagined yet may take the world by storm.
- flarn2006, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/
- Koush, on 06/13/2008, -9/+50The problem just seems to be a crappy admin rather then a crappy OS.
- Spuy767, on 06/14/2008, -0/+18A friend of mine worked Sys admin for Barrow County Schools, he knew far less than I did and they paid him 22k a year. At that price, you're not going to get very qualified people to run your networks.
- Murdats, on 06/14/2008, -3/+4I agree, some of these networks suck, one (really crappy school) I was at did everything through the basic windows home network, and shared the dialup connection through internet connection sharing. I basically taught the teacher and class that unit.
However I would in light of the crappy admins linux would be a bad move, sure malware sucks
but one student doing something like 'rm -rf /' will suck much more and happen more frequently
yes it can be prevented, but so can malware.- alienunknown, on 06/14/2008, -1/+4Look at the amount of malware available for windows and then compare that to the risks of having a linux system abused, which are quite small. Windows is also of course going to be more costly.
Its just not economically justifiable to use windows in schools. - srg13, on 06/14/2008, -0/+7"but one student doing something like 'rm -rf /' will suck much more and happen more frequently"
Um, why would the students accounts be able to use sudo? At most they could just erase their home directory...- Murdats, on 06/14/2008, -2/+1it was an example, my point was in linux its easy to do lots of damage, windows is easy to gunk up, linux is easy to break.
keep in mind this is when you have noobs as admins, which is what happens in schools - theaceoffire, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2Ever deleted your "windows" folder?
Windows is also easy to gunk up. If you type "del /F /S /Q *" your whole system is gone. Period. - Atomic1fire, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1Wouldn't you disable console access for people who dont need it.
the average kid is not going to be able to get out of a set of minimum school selected programs programs
and the school should have a permissions system regardless (such as grading programs for teachers and a basic set of stuff depending on class for students) - marx2k, on 06/15/2008, -0/+0It's as difficult for a normal (non-root) Linux user to trash the system as trying to trash a Windows system by only having access to c:temp_directory_which_doesnt_affect_the_rest_of_the_system
- Murdats, on 06/14/2008, -2/+1it was an example, my point was in linux its easy to do lots of damage, windows is easy to gunk up, linux is easy to break.
- alienunknown, on 06/14/2008, -1/+4Look at the amount of malware available for windows and then compare that to the risks of having a linux system abused, which are quite small. Windows is also of course going to be more costly.
- Wakuko, on 06/14/2008, -6/+1Mix a crappy admin and a crappy OS and you have a recipe for disaster!
- RetepNamenots, on 06/14/2008, -0/+3Yep. I work in a secondary school and we've discussed this; we would change to Linux IF we were guaranteed the expertise if things were to go wrong.
Another issue which was raised was how parents would react; it sounds strange to me, but parents seem to think that Windows is better, and that their kids deserve the best. Even if it does cost us over £30k for licensing fees.- Atomic1fire, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2which is why there should be a class for it that parents should be aware of.
- marx2k, on 06/15/2008, -1/+0Some (Redhat, Canonical, etc) Linux companies offer support for their product just as Microsoft does for theirs.
- TheLoneWolf071, on 06/13/2008, -6/+19Linux would be great because it's basically an "All-inclusive" Package, and what ever you need you can just get for free and use. Firewall solutions, filtering, Office, Art, programming, etc.
Windows would be great because it's used everywhere else and you can't go 10 feet without seeing it. All the popular and mainstream apps will run on it, and hardware is rarely an issue.
Really, it's up to the Director of Tech for the school and what they feels the schools needs are. Personally I'd go with linux if i had to choose.- Megatog615, on 06/16/2008, -0/+3Generally schools will buy hundreds of the same computer in bulk, so the driver problem would hardly be an issue.
- bcars, on 06/14/2008, -21/+7Mac.
- Zaneris, on 06/14/2008, -12/+35As much as I love Linux, from an education standpoint, I'd have to say whatever they'd most likely be using later on in life, and/or at home.
So, for now... Windows, hopefully Linux down the road though.
p.s. It should be mandatory to at least give an overview of alternative operating systems though.- acanaday, on 06/14/2008, -3/+4couldn't say it better.
- diggingaround, on 06/14/2008, -4/+18You sound like a corporate drone with a necktie... the point is that our schools will save hundreds of millions US $ by showing a a middle finger to Microsoft ... they should go with Linux in a heartbeat... learn how to use OpenOffice, and you know already how to use MS Word when needed. I'm running Windows and Linux on my machines, but every other software I have is from open source community.
- DarkShroud, on 06/14/2008, -4/+5MS pratically gives software to schools. And friankly when you grow up and get into the businessworld you'll learn why MS office is king. Open Office is fine when you need to type something but it can't compare to the amount of features that MS Office has.
- theaceoffire, on 06/14/2008, -2/+1One word: Vista.
They are trying to force Vista onto these schools, which forces all of them to upgrade if they want to run it...
Some have hardware that makes windows 98 struggle. - init100, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2"And friankly when you grow up and get into the businessworld you'll learn why MS office is king."
But then I have a hard time believing that any school uses those features that Microsoft Office has but OpenOffice.org hasn't. - DarkShroud, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1My high school took us through all the features of Word. Of course my school was different, when we learned basic HTML they had us using note pad. And all the class computers duel booted Windows & Linux.
- theaceoffire, on 06/14/2008, -2/+1One word: Vista.
- itsthebrod, on 06/14/2008, -1/+4By "corporate drone with a necktie," are you just referring to anyone with a job? Because, you know, most businesses depend on features that only Microsoft provides. MS Office has always been, and will be (into the foreseeable future) the king of office suites. Period. Feature-wise, Open Office doesn't even have a foot in the court.
Maybe once you get out into the real world and get a real job that doesn't involve punching pizza orders into a computer, you'll understand that Linux isn't feasible in the business world... Unless all the software manufacturers just up and decide one day to start rewriting all their software for Linux (and make it free because anything that costs money is obviously terrible, right?)- init100, on 06/14/2008, -2/+3"MS Office has always been, and will be (into the foreseeable future) the king of office suites. Period."
First, I always have issues with claims that something will always be like it is now. Then, Microsoft Office might have been the first popular integrated office suite, but before that WordPerfect was the king of the market in word processing and Lotus 1-2-3 was the king of the market in spreadsheet applications.
"Maybe once you get out into the real world and get a real job ..., you'll understand that Linux isn't feasible in the business world..."
It is very feasible in the business world. It is already there, and it is growing. That you haven't yet seen it does not imply otherwise.
- init100, on 06/14/2008, -2/+3"MS Office has always been, and will be (into the foreseeable future) the king of office suites. Period."
- tony23, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2"our schools will save hundreds of millions US $"
Until they have to hire some competent linux tech to fix things.
If they're having so much trouble with Windows, do you really think they'll do better with Linux?- marx2k, on 06/15/2008, -2/+0Red Hat and Canonical (among others) provide support for their products. They're having trouble with Windows because of the shakiness of the OS itself and the "point and click administration" model.
- DarkShroud, on 06/14/2008, -4/+5MS pratically gives software to schools. And friankly when you grow up and get into the businessworld you'll learn why MS office is king. Open Office is fine when you need to type something but it can't compare to the amount of features that MS Office has.
- myuu, on 06/14/2008, -0/+7I started an effort to distribute secondhand Linux machines to families and this is my boilerplate answer: "Teaching specifics is wasteful for children, what is important is developing an intuition towards computers. The ability to learn to learn and not be afraid, diversity in operating systems promotes that,"
Essentially, what they will be using is far beyond what they are learning now. We should be teaching are the fundamentals and a passion for technology. - localzuk, on 06/14/2008, -0/+9Schools should be teaching transferable skills, not specifics. Teach how to word process, not how to use Word. Teach how to edit images, not how to use Photoshop. You don't go into a maths lesson and learn how to use money. You go in there and learn the concepts surrounding maths, numbers etc... Why should IT be specific?
- dazparkour, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2We had a Linux Lab. It was minuscule compared to the sheer number of Windows PCs we have.
I'm with Localzuk - If I show people Linux and tell them it isn't Windows, you can see them turning into lost sheep.
OH OH OH I DONT KNOW THIS!
If you take someone who "knows enough to be dangerous", they will click the word processor and type, finish typing, save it. Load it later, change fonts - because they do not know there is a difference they do not act up to it.- init100, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2"If I show people Linux and tell them it isn't Windows, you can see them turning into lost sheep."
Then tell them it is a new version of Windows. You can even rename the Firefox icon to Internet Explorer or The Internet.
- init100, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2"If I show people Linux and tell them it isn't Windows, you can see them turning into lost sheep."
- jkroge, on 06/14/2008, -2/+20It would be great if Linux was used in the classroom, but it still does not fix the problem of finding and paying a good system administrator to maintain the computers. Schools that use Windows are having problems because the teachers and staff don't know how to use the technology. If they don't know how to use a Windows system, they won't know how to use a Linux system either.
- xtinamo, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1At my highschool we had a tech admin that actually got paid more than our teachers did and this was 4 years ago. I'm sure it was pretty stressful dealing with the technologically challenged, but he was nice enough to help my media commission in student government get a free powerbook G4 (our school had a deal with mac) for us to play with.
- Rabbittt, on 06/14/2008, -0/+8Not paying for Microsoft software would free up an enormous amount of cash, a small percentage of which could be used to attract highly skilled admins..
- kupa, on 06/14/2008, -2/+5out of curiosity how much money do you think schools spend on microsoft stuff? are you people under the impression that schools or even businesses actually pay the $150 per every copy of windows or $350 or howeverr much for every copy of office they need??
- adioe3, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1In every school I've been people complain about educational staff not being enough computer-literate. I'm very sorry, but this is waaaaaaaaay wrong! Teachers at the schools I've been use the PCs for rather simple tasks - typing a document or playing solitaire; spreadsheets require 2-3 teachers. It's not the system that people should be knowledgeable about but the program they use. As for the system - you have a file and a folder. All they need to know is:
a) You have files and folders.
b) Files are your stuff, folders are the place to keep them.
c) Put all your stuff in a folder and give it a logical name (name of the course you're teaching)
Then, let them find their way about. I've sat down with a 54 year old man and asked him to write down a document with tables and save it somewhere he could find it on a Ubuntu box. He opened OpenOffice, wrote the document and saved it in the HOME folder. The very obvious folder as is My Documents on Windows.
So, conclusion: don't waste money, give out a simple memo with three facts and tell people to try it out and experiment. If someone thinks their experimenting is a waste of time note down budget outcomes with the memo and Linux or without the memo and Windows.
- vinnyvenus, on 06/14/2008, -17/+3School has to teach children about how to survive in real world. In real world majority of population (Over 90 percent ) uses windows. So school should use what the majority of the world already uses by that I mean windows.
- ArthurSucks, on 06/14/2008, -3/+8Can you guarantee those numbers would stay the same in the next 5 years? Doubt it.
- NecroDigg, on 06/14/2008, -7/+6Can you guarantee they wont?
- theaceoffire, on 06/14/2008, -0/+5"Shouldn't we have more life rafts?"
"This ship is unsinkable!"
- theaceoffire, on 06/14/2008, -0/+5"Shouldn't we have more life rafts?"
- byleth, on 06/14/2008, -1/+5Nobody can guarantee anything. Just use what works.
- NecroDigg, on 06/14/2008, -7/+6Can you guarantee they wont?
- mithrasinvictus, on 06/14/2008, -0/+18Yes, just look at the people that were taught Wordperfect, Lotus 1-2-3 ,DBase III and MS-dos wield those skills like magicians in todays workplace.
People should not be taught how to operate a specific interface because you can count on it being outdated soon, they should learn the basics of the type of application. Intuitiveness and a clear design pattern are more important than current market penetration. - Biker803, on 06/14/2008, -1/+4I would have to disagree with schools teaching children about how to survive in the real world. In public schools, you get taught what the government and the school board want you to get taught. Everything is planned out lesson for lesson; you rarely learn anything that will help you out in the real world, at least in my opinion.
Sure, in the sense of technology, it may make more sense to have students learn (about technology) on technology they will most likely use much of their life (or hell, maybe not), but to say they are teaching you how to "survive in the real world" is going further than necessary.
I may be going out on a limb here, but I've always thought school prepares you to work for someone else, plain and simple. Your fed with the idea that after high school you must go to college or you will not succeed. Once you're through college, you will get a good job, an even better one if you continue your education (and accumulate massive debt.) I think college is definitely a good thing to have under your belt, but I don't believe it is necessary in all situations. They don't talk to you about starting your own business, they don't tell you about investing in stocks, they don't tell you how to work less and still make money. It's ridiculous. Yes, some schools do offer special 'elective' courses that may touch in some of those areas, but they're electives. I'd like to see something that puts a little financial sense into the average Joe's mind so there isn't such a huge problem with debt and people declaring bankruptcy.- feliks2, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2I'd like two Big Macs with no ketchup, medium fries, and a small coke mr. you-don't-need-a-college-education.
- viruz, on 06/14/2008, -1/+1big macs don't have ketchup
- Biker803, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2I did not say a college education was not necessary as you insinuated. I said it as not necessary in some cases and that it does not fit everyone's lifestyle. I think it's extremely important to advance your education in some way, shape, or form after high school. I simply meant that it does not meet all peoples' needs, and that the current system produces many people who are all alike and only know what they learned from school, which in today's society, isn't as much as they should be learning (like as I mentioned the financial aspect of it.)
If you insist on being so smart, take me for example. I won't go into exactly how much I am making, but I am doing very well for my still-young age, making more than you can expect most people coming out of college to make; I have not yet gone to college because I, financially was not going to be able to handle it. I had no help from my parents or family (which is perfectly fine in all honesty,) but the company I'm working for is going to PAY for me to get my A+, Network+, CCNA, and a few other certifications which is going to mean quite a lot if I decide to find yet another job in a few years (I'm doing well enough that I don't really think I'll need to look for another one for a while.) They're also going to pay for me to take night classes if I go for a degree, so, because I decided to wait past high school means I now will not have to accumulate the massive debt most Americans incur today.
You may say, "well, that's just you", but then once again, all I'm saying is that a college education is not necessary for everyone; I'm not even saying it isn't necessary for me.
So, don't be a smart ass when you reply to my comment. I think a lot of people would agree with what I'm saying here.
- feliks2, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2I'd like two Big Macs with no ketchup, medium fries, and a small coke mr. you-don't-need-a-college-education.
- ArthurSucks, on 06/14/2008, -3/+8Can you guarantee those numbers would stay the same in the next 5 years? Doubt it.
- ROW3BO4T, on 06/14/2008, -4/+22Think how much money would be saved by using Linux and Open Office. The big payoff however would come in the next 5 to 10 years when those kids grow up being comfortable with Linux. It could be the tipping point to bring Linux into the mainstream and to a much larger market share.
- logandurand, on 06/14/2008, -1/+62018: Year Of The Linux Desktop
- teamcoltra, on 06/14/2008, -0/+6Too bad the internet will be gone in 2012 ;)
- NedSlider, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2You can't win this battle on costs alone as MS will simply start giving software to schools for free if it comes down to it. They already have schemes where they are providing Windows and Office for $3 per machine donated to schools. MS realise the important of locking in users at a very early stage and they will practice this at any cost - it's a good long term investment for their business model.
You have to fight this battle on principle and practicality, not price.- ShinyDemon, on 06/14/2008, -0/+0So... switch to Linux just long enough for MS to freak out and start giving you Windows for free. Either way, you win! (kinda... I personally would keep the Linux)
- bman1984, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1Schools should not be dictating what is used in the industry, it should be the other way around. Just because you enjoy using linux, as do I, does not mean that schools should use it to increase Linux's use in the marketplace. Why can't people just accept linux for what it is. It is used lots in the business world, but very very rarely by end users ( in the business place ).
- logandurand, on 06/14/2008, -1/+62018: Year Of The Linux Desktop
- 3242130193, on 06/14/2008, -5/+36Linux, just cause it's available to everybody. The same goes for OpenOffice and pretty much any free software. Bringing kids up on MS software isn't very useful for everyone cause not everyone can obtain it easily. Why marginalize them? FOSS is far more available and easy to obtain. Bring everyone up on Linux to even the playing field.
Besides, Linux/UNIX was SPECIFICALLY MADE to be a multi-user environment. It's so much easier to break a computer running Windows, but try doing it on UNIX without root privileges? Not as easy I think.- dazparkour, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2I disagree - there is nothing safe about any computer that you let someone physically touch, once running the OS however, Linux definitely is geared to maintaining permissions.
- 3242130193, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2Anyone can change BIOS settings and do whatever they want to with a boot disk and then all hell breaks loose. Whether it's windows or linux on the machine doesn't make a big difference.
But inarguably, as you say, once the OS is running, a UNIX system is much harder to break than a Windows one.- Zounas, on 06/14/2008, -0/+4Put a password in BIOS and disable booting from anywhere but the hard drive?
- init100, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1I agree with Zounas, adding that the computer should also be kept in a locked cage so that no student can just open it and clear the BIOS password.
- bman1984, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1BIOS backdoor password anybody?
- 3242130193, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2Anyone can change BIOS settings and do whatever they want to with a boot disk and then all hell breaks loose. Whether it's windows or linux on the machine doesn't make a big difference.
- dazparkour, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2I disagree - there is nothing safe about any computer that you let someone physically touch, once running the OS however, Linux definitely is geared to maintaining permissions.
- regression, on 06/14/2008, -6/+11How about both?
- Rabbittt, on 06/14/2008, -2/+5Only if the Microsoft software is FREE..
- lianliming, on 06/15/2008, -1/+2Microsoft is very clever, they have donated many software to schools. So somehow Microsoft software is free to school.
- Rabbittt, on 06/14/2008, -2/+5Only if the Microsoft software is FREE..
- l815, on 06/14/2008, -17/+12If a teacher can't figure out how to use linux and how easy it is to use now a days, then they shouldn't be a teacher.
Linux should be in schools because it promotes learning, is free, and teaches a great philosophy of which is open source!- feliks2, on 06/14/2008, -1/+3I think most people don't care about computer philosphy, nor should they have to. Those that want to go into programming or computer science or whatnot, yeah, but not everyone else.
- hoyty, on 06/14/2008, -1/+5Let me get this straight a teacher who doesn't know linux shouldn't be a teacher. Hmm, you just eliminated 99% of all teachers. Hooray.
- BRODEL, on 06/14/2008, -1/+3Actually, he said can't figure out linux, not doesn't know linux. There's a huge difference there.
- elevatedystopia, on 06/14/2008, -5/+0back in the day we got linux in my school for awhile...no one knew how to use it so we had to switch to windows...which sucks...so what abouta that other one...macintosh is it called?
- Syphon8, on 06/14/2008, -2/+4Too expensive for schools.
- P373Y, on 06/14/2008, -0/+3my school uses macs
- timesheetsrule, on 06/14/2008, -1/+3ya, a lot of schools have macs. The hardware is extremely over priced and, in my opinion, so is the software. Somehow they are still able to push themselves into a lot of schools (primary and collage.)
My district alone has 5 mac labs.
The one has a ton of older laptops. They cost the school a good $1200 each when the hardware shouldn't have gone over $600 for each one (especially with how many the bought at once.) - Syphon8, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1WELL NOT ALL OF OUR SCHOOLS HAVE $27,000 TO REPLACE ALL THEIR COMPUTERS.
- marx2k, on 06/15/2008, -0/+0Syphon8: BUT OTHER SCHOOLS MAY NOT THINK IN CAPS (SPENDING OR OTHERWISE)
- timesheetsrule, on 06/14/2008, -1/+3ya, a lot of schools have macs. The hardware is extremely over priced and, in my opinion, so is the software. Somehow they are still able to push themselves into a lot of schools (primary and collage.)
- P373Y, on 06/14/2008, -0/+3my school uses macs
- elevatedystopia, on 06/14/2008, -1/+1it'd be less expensive when they didn't need new computers every 2 years
- Syphon8, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1My school still uses Windows 98 on most computers.
Lol, 2 years. - elevatedystopia, on 06/14/2008, -1/+0"My school still uses Windows 98" ...? ok, everyone knows PCs don't last 10 years.
- Syphon8, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1Everyone knows Mactards are idiotic sheep.
- Syphon8, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1My school still uses Windows 98 on most computers.
- Syphon8, on 06/14/2008, -2/+4Too expensive for schools.
- gfxluvr, on 06/14/2008, -17/+9PC or Mac.
Digg me down. :-(- feliks2, on 06/14/2008, -0/+4A Mac is a PC. A computer running Windows is a PC. What is so hard to understand about the term "personal computer?"
- ExRe, on 06/14/2008, -4/+4For most desktops, Linux would be my choice. I'd argue it is easier to learn how to use a computer on a Linux install than it is on Windows, at least as long as you don't have to be the one installing/configuring it.
Seriously, Linux could rule the PC world if it would just install as easily as Vista does. It is easier to use and learn on, but a major bitch to install if you need to find your own drivers.- bipolarruledout, on 06/14/2008, -12/+9Easier to learn? Sorry but you must be dreaming to suggest that an OS created by geeks is easier to learn than one made by a company that employs a "user experience" team just to make products easy to use. Until linux can be made 100% GUI driven I just don't see it taking off on the desktop but the install process has gotten much better in recent years.
- Toshibi, on 06/14/2008, -2/+8I only drop into CLI now for fun. Seriously, have you used a recent version of Linux?
Further, I install Linux for all sorts of people now, they all like it and I have fewer complaints about "My computer is slowing down" and other common Windows complaints.
Further, the install is simple, like 7 or 8 steps, all GUI driven, and most of the time you can surf the web while installing....which is what i do when I'm installing it for people. - marx2k, on 06/15/2008, -0/+0I thank the God of Computers every day that most Linux GUI config apps are just a thin layer over plain-text config files accessible in a logically laid out file system by a simple text editor. If the GUI app doesn't work I have the choice to either use another one to config the same file or edit the file by hand.
It's the same joy I feel about Linux GUI apps that are a thin client to a daemon running in memory.
Finally, for me, gone are the Windows days where if an app malfunctions in the config area, there's no actual plaintext config file it's editing and I'm SOL. Gone are the days where I have no actual choice to client-side applications to a common back-end daemon.
But hey! Enjoy having the kids get tied down a specific OS and specific apps with their specific peculiarities and shortcomings. After all, they're the future though-leaders that will continue to tow the corporate line and boost MS over everything else because "that's what they know"
- Toshibi, on 06/14/2008, -2/+8I only drop into CLI now for fun. Seriously, have you used a recent version of Linux?
- mithrasinvictus, on 06/14/2008, -7/+11it installs easier and faster than vista, it supports more hardware than vista and you can even boot into it before installing to check if it works if you want.
what more do you need?- DarkShroud, on 06/14/2008, -3/+4Drivers.
- dazparkour, on 06/14/2008, -2/+1I see this a lot.
Can you forward me to where you have send in specifics about your hardware to someone who would be able to develop drivers, helping not only you but everyone else who has the same hardware?
No?
Then I declare your right to bitch null and void. - bman1984, on 06/16/2008, -1/+1Can you forward me to a single instance where this would be up to the end user with Windows?
- dazparkour, on 06/14/2008, -2/+1I see this a lot.
- ExRe, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1No, it doesn't support more hardware than Vista.
Maybe more _old_ hardware, but I can't even use more than 3 button mice on any Linux distro I've tried.- marx2k, on 06/15/2008, -1/+3"No, it doesn't support more hardware than Vista.
Maybe more _old_ hardware"
So, you just contradicted yourself? It's more important to support legacy hardware for the people using it than supporting zero-day hardware for the few people using it. And if you don't agree, talk to the hardware manufacturers who choose to only release OS specific-drivers to their OS-generic hardware.
Is there a reason that if I want to install my HP printer on Windows XP, I have to download a 50MB+ mega-install to run it vs just downloading a single 19k ppd file to have it work on Linux?
- marx2k, on 06/15/2008, -1/+3"No, it doesn't support more hardware than Vista.
- DarkShroud, on 06/14/2008, -3/+4Drivers.
- Transporter2000, on 06/14/2008, -5/+1Love Linux, but no way is the problem installing the OS. It's more installing software and availability of software that cripples it for the average user. Until web apps mature, Windows will continue to rule, Mac will gain market share. Once we all mostly use web apps, then it won't matter. Linux could then become mainstream.
- 4321234, on 06/14/2008, -0/+4Yeah, we sure don't want to force students to learn how to do something.
Linux boxes can be cloned onto identical hardware for free, no license restrictions.
Open source means there's no restriction on how much you can learn about how the system works.
There are open source alternatives for damn near every proprietary software. Free.
As someone who is a self taught windows and linux user, linux is no harder, in fact I would say easier to install and to install software on - if you use the package manager. You have the option of installing from source or modifying the source code if you're an advanced user or student.
Ideally, all operating systems should be available for classes for specific software, like photoshop or autocad, but if it was a case of either / or, linux is the no-brainer choice.
- 4321234, on 06/14/2008, -0/+4Yeah, we sure don't want to force students to learn how to do something.
- bipolarruledout, on 06/14/2008, -12/+9Easier to learn? Sorry but you must be dreaming to suggest that an OS created by geeks is easier to learn than one made by a company that employs a "user experience" team just to make products easy to use. Until linux can be made 100% GUI driven I just don't see it taking off on the desktop but the install process has gotten much better in recent years.
- WTFppl, on 06/14/2008, -3/+12I've been playing around with Debian, it has 54 languages to learn, math and advanced mathematics, science links for study information, among a multitude of other things Debian will help you learn. I'd have to say, the future of studies with Linux looks bright. Looking at the adaption level that MS has forgot, I would believe MS has no care to stimulate the learning curve!
- Twee, on 06/14/2008, -6/+1Doesn't Debian require like 10 DVDs to install?
- MethodOne, on 06/14/2008, -0/+3Actually 3 DVDs for Debian Etch and 4 DVDs and a CD for Debian Lenny. You only need the first CD if you want to install programs over the Internet using apt-get or Synaptic. The DVDs contain additional applications if you want to install them offline.
- Twee, on 06/14/2008, -6/+1Doesn't Debian require like 10 DVDs to install?
- azAZ09, on 06/14/2008, -12/+6Teach both -- Dual Boot -- Case Closed.
- trevorh, on 06/14/2008, -2/+5Doesn't solve the cost issue associated with windows.
- pavelmah, on 06/14/2008, -8/+2Here are 50 reasosn to dump windows at home and in school:
http://www.linuxhaxor.net/2007/08/13/50-reasons-to ...- niteskunk, on 06/14/2008, -0/+5That list is *****. I'm all for Linux, but that list is pure *****.
- crestfall, on 06/14/2008, -1/+16I wrote a paper on this last semester. If anyone's interested, I'd like feedback.
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=811390- Rabbittt, on 06/14/2008, -0/+8Your arguments are strong enough that you don't need all the bias you used to make your point.. Cut out the bias and I think you have a very intelligent and well thought out paper..
- majestichazard, on 06/14/2008, -0/+32nded ^
Might I reccomend you take out all forms of the verb 'to be'? No seriously, it's e-prime, and it's a great way to write in a less ambiguous and biased way.- crestfall, on 06/21/2008, -0/+2thanks to both above. I appreciate the perspective.
- Miniman, on 06/14/2008, -4/+3Use Windows SteadyState.
- Twee, on 06/14/2008, -0/+4Is that the same as that ridiculous Deep Freeze program?
- raydeen, on 06/14/2008, -0/+0What's wrong with Deep Freeze? That thing is a god-send. Kids can screw up a school computer so quickly it's not funny. We thawed one of the computers one day and within 5 minutes the student sitting there had it infected.
- andyakadum, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2You mean the ***** sysadmin let it get infected.
- init100, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2Deep Freeze and similar applications are only an excuse for incompetent sysadmins who don't know how to set up restricted permissions correctly.
- raydeen, on 06/15/2008, -0/+0I'll agree here to an extent. The organization insists on using Symantec Antivirus which pretty much lets everything in the door, shows it where the safe is, gives it the combination and then lets it drink all my beer.
- neko, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1You're treating the symptoms instead of curing the disease.
- bman1984, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1Symantec Antivirus is just that, antivirus software. Corporate version actually does a decent job with viruses and trojans and the like. Antivirus software is not the only component of security however. Most of the ***** kids get infected with computers is a result of Internet Explorer not being locked down properly, or users being able to install their own software.
- raydeen, on 06/14/2008, -0/+0What's wrong with Deep Freeze? That thing is a god-send. Kids can screw up a school computer so quickly it's not funny. We thawed one of the computers one day and within 5 minutes the student sitting there had it infected.
- Twee, on 06/14/2008, -0/+4Is that the same as that ridiculous Deep Freeze program?
- Syphon8, on 06/14/2008, -2/+8My school just has every PC hooked up to a central server that re-images them every time you log out.
Linux would be nice, seeing as we don't have any design classes. The worst part of highschool is seeing people with no talent be praised by teachers for "designing" the school website or whatever, when I could do it better, faster, and prettier than they could PAY to have it done if only the teachers who ran the "computer classes" weren't complete arrogant dicks.- Toshibi, on 06/14/2008, -0/+3I know what you mean. When I was in school it felt like every art teacher on earth was blind and stupid. Besides that, almost all institutional websites out there look like pure ass. From high School to City and State pages.
- nbyn, on 06/14/2008, -3/+1This is a shocking revelation; with all that "talent" I see on MySpace?
- spyd3rweb, on 06/14/2008, -3/+15Teaching kids to use open source software would no go well with the government overlords and their big business friends.
- RSS14, on 06/14/2008, -0/+10Although I prefer Windows, I think Linux should be used in public schools. This would allow the money which would have been spent on buying the operation system to a better cause, such as paying for teachers and other school related things.
- P373Y, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2or better internet connections
- cakrauss, on 06/14/2008, -4/+6I used Mac OS in school when I was a kid and it taught me how to find my way around technology really well.
- scarecrow2k6, on 06/14/2008, -8/+2One word: Linux !
- thedez, on 06/14/2008, -0/+28I vote Commodore 64
- EggNogIceCream, on 06/14/2008, -1/+3What kind of chip you got in there?
- BenBenMan, on 06/14/2008, -2/+5A Dorito?
- Toshibi, on 06/14/2008, -0/+6I learned so much about Math and Logic on my old Commodore 64. I didn't realize it at the time but all of those programs that I wrote were teaching me advanced math and logic in a very real way.
- Amiga500, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2Finally, somebody with a viable alternative.
- neko, on 06/16/2008, -0/+2BBC Micro!
- EggNogIceCream, on 06/14/2008, -1/+3What kind of chip you got in there?
- rotendo, on 06/14/2008, -8/+4"Linux Vs. Microsoft"
- bipolarruledout, on 06/14/2008, -10/+4I have nothing against linux if there is to be a "standard" then I think Windows should clearly be the one. What is the market penetration of Windows vs Linux? The kids should be learning what is being used in the workplace. That being said Linux certainly has a place in schools if for nothing more than it's low cost. A whole lot of old machines could be put to use. It's too bad becuase even poor schools are turning down machines slower than 1ghz these days.
- marx2k, on 06/15/2008, -0/+0Microsoft is the mainstream in the corporate world. Therefore we should teach our future thought leaders to use mainly Microsoft so when they get out into the marketplace, they can continue to boost Microsoft into the mainstream. Repeat, repeat, repeat. It's the same awful argument as "There are no decent drivers for Linux so we should use Microsoft, and by doing so, ensuring that the market share of Microsoft continue to grow and hardware manufacturers continue to ignore anything but"
- bman1984, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1So because you like Linux better, we should force it into schools. Then all the kids will be comfortable with Linux, and the corporate world will have to change to Linux, because thats what everyone is comfortable with. You know, I think I know of a place that takes well to ideas like this, and it is called China.
Dual boot with both, and let the users decide. Whether you like to believe it or not, end users who don't care/are not interested in how computers work, will take Windows over Linux any day of the week. There are far more end users that don't care, than geeks that do. I am not one of the end users that prefers Windows at home, but after some time in IT in the real world, most users can't even use a word processor and browse the web without ***** up.
They don't care what OS their computer is running, or how efficient it is, they just want to use it. Microsoft knows this, and are able to make their software and OS's more appealing to these type of people. Office 2007 and Vista were both designed with this idea in mind.
- bman1984, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1So because you like Linux better, we should force it into schools. Then all the kids will be comfortable with Linux, and the corporate world will have to change to Linux, because thats what everyone is comfortable with. You know, I think I know of a place that takes well to ideas like this, and it is called China.
- marx2k, on 06/15/2008, -0/+0Microsoft is the mainstream in the corporate world. Therefore we should teach our future thought leaders to use mainly Microsoft so when they get out into the marketplace, they can continue to boost Microsoft into the mainstream. Repeat, repeat, repeat. It's the same awful argument as "There are no decent drivers for Linux so we should use Microsoft, and by doing so, ensuring that the market share of Microsoft continue to grow and hardware manufacturers continue to ignore anything but"
- ericdano, on 06/14/2008, -10/+2Mac OS X.
- sooch, on 06/14/2008, -7/+0Who cares what they have at school. What do they have at home?
- BikerDude69, on 06/14/2008, -1/+12It doesn't matter what platform you go with. If the IT staff are idiots, anything will get hacked. I can set up a Linux OR Microsoft network where the users will only see what I want them to during the hours I want them to, and even can not log on unless they are scheduled to. It takes a competent It staff to run ANY network no matter WHERE it is deployed. Ever hear of root? Ever hear of Group Policy? Access lists? Encryption? Assigned proxies? Web filters? Squid, baby!
- Jerphelps, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2Very well said. I as well use and employ Group policies at work. I even just finished building a proxy server with squid
- NecroDigg, on 06/14/2008, -7/+2They should be using OpenVMS. ***** Linux/Windows.
- dasunst3r, on 06/14/2008, -3/+1As many have mentioned, it doesn't have to be exclusive. I love Linux, but I will choose the right tool for the job. The equal presence of all three operating systems promotes academic freedom. For me, Linux is ideal where the computers need to work the first time and every time.
- bluechips23, on 06/14/2008, -6/+1I say, Microsoft, because we all know how evil MSFT can be and I believe the kids need to learn about the big bad world out there the hard way.... Heaven (Linux) comes to know only who search through the darkness for the light or erm, penguin!
- georanson, on 06/14/2008, -7/+0yes linux is good but there are a lot of security in 3rd party programs that dont necessarily need admin privileges to install holes and a linux computer can be hacked extremely fast and then they have access to the school network and anything is possible from there. ive seen it done on xp and osx linux is just the next step it will be hacked but its cheap so i guess it still makes it the best choice
- init100, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Your post does not make sense.
- init100, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Your post does not make sense.
- nsundeepreddy, on 06/14/2008, -5/+3I for one totally support free (or near free) software for all educational institutions. Linux is the natural choice.
On the other hand, I am not against M$ either. But I think M$ should provide educational institutions with free software. It is definitely in their interests to get the next generation hooked on M$ Windows. Anyone getting exposed to Linux in schools is a definite no-no for M$ for life. :)
So... all current options seem to lead to Linux. :)- RogerStrong, on 06/14/2008, -2/+6If Microsoft provided educational institutions with free software, everyone else would scream "anti-trust!!!" and demand (sucesssfully) that the government stop them.
- nsundeepreddy, on 06/14/2008, -2/+0Its not like other OSes are not free now. They all are free. What are the resonable alternatives to MS Windows that schools would consider? Solaris? Linux? Who is not free here?
I dont think giving educational discounts will come into any anti-trust case.- DarkShroud, on 06/14/2008, -1/+1Mac isn't free, you know the only competitor to MS that has real world use.
- RogerStrong, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2Microsoft was nailed with anti-trust charges for giving Internet Explorer away for free - despite the competition, Netscape Navigator, being free.
It may not make sense, but it does work that way,
. - nsundeepreddy, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2IE was nailed b'cos it was given away free with Windows and had access to OS interfaces that other browsers do not have. It was not because it was given away. If IE was provided as a free software like it is now... it is not anti trust.
- RogerStrong, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1In the mean time, every other major OS included a free web browser.
IE was also the help file reader for Windows. It had a legitimate reason for being there, just as the default document reader.
- majestichazard, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1Yeah, because the real problem with monopolies is that they give out their products to schools for free. We need to do something about this, guyz.
- nsundeepreddy, on 06/14/2008, -2/+0Its not like other OSes are not free now. They all are free. What are the resonable alternatives to MS Windows that schools would consider? Solaris? Linux? Who is not free here?
- RogerStrong, on 06/14/2008, -2/+6If Microsoft provided educational institutions with free software, everyone else would scream "anti-trust!!!" and demand (sucesssfully) that the government stop them.
- nastronomical, on 06/14/2008, -4/+21Lets work on teaching them math, science, history and so on. You dont need a PC to learn.
- lx45803, on 06/14/2008, -0/+7you don't NEED one, but they can sure help. The situation is a lot clearer from where we stand than where you do, assuming you're not a student because you said 'them'.
- lucasmaximus, on 06/14/2008, -3/+0I find that a computer has never really helped me doing any of the Maths on my engineering course or when I was in Sixth form studying my A-levels. The only thing I ever use it for is the equation editor in Word. In fact until we were learning basic cad techniques, I don't think I even knew how to use a modern computer. I had the top grades in my school at Maths, Physics and Chemistry.
After spending a lot of time on my final year I do a lot of Computer Simulation, however all the Maths used I originally did on paper.- bman1984, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1AutoCAD? Mechanical Desktop? CNC lathes? Plotting surfaces using programming and linear algebra? Have fun with the paper...
- lucasmaximus, on 06/20/2008, -0/+0Yes the tool helps you do the mechanical part of the work i.e. working out lots of values, however the core principle of what you are doing tends to be done on paper. I have used AutoCad, Pro Engineer, Matlab etc.
However I knew how to do engineering drawing on paper before I used autocad.
Even when programming, I write down my algorithm in pseudocode to make sure I have the logic correct before writing code (if the algorithm is sufficiently complex).
- lucasmaximus, on 06/14/2008, -3/+0I find that a computer has never really helped me doing any of the Maths on my engineering course or when I was in Sixth form studying my A-levels. The only thing I ever use it for is the equation editor in Word. In fact until we were learning basic cad techniques, I don't think I even knew how to use a modern computer. I had the top grades in my school at Maths, Physics and Chemistry.
- majestichazard, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2Great, let's just crank out another generation of john mccains.
- heatrj, on 06/16/2008, -0/+0I think offering a single PC for use in a classroom is an excellent idea. I can see many times when a question may arise that cannot be answered, even by the teacher. PC's have access to sooooooo much more information than an elementary school teacher. Also I think we are way past the times adults would make things up because they didn't know.
- lx45803, on 06/14/2008, -0/+7you don't NEED one, but they can sure help. The situation is a lot clearer from where we stand than where you do, assuming you're not a student because you said 'them'.
- definedbywords, on 06/14/2008, -3/+17"We're seeing the stand alone desktop PC as a colossal failure in schools." says Paul Nelson, Technology Director for the Riverdale School District in Portland, Oregon. "After several years of installing PCs in classrooms, it is evident that schools do not have the staffing to support them and keep them running. Often infected with viruses and subjected to student abuse, these systems can quickly turn into a useless but expensive pile of junk in the back of the classroom."
If they can't keep their Windows machines working, how would they be expected to keep the Linux ones working?
Infected with viruses? GET ANTI-VIRUS! duh
I work in a K-8 school district and our Windows computers run great. No viruses, no spyware. It's called hiring people who know what they are doing. We also have Macs and although none of the student computers have Linux, there are a few computers in the building with Linux on them.- lmbb20, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2"If they can't keep their Windows machines working, how would they be expected to keep the Linux ones working?"
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You should understand something before you judge it. Don't you teach kids K-8, to not judge a book by it's cover? - ShinyDemon, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1Though I do agree with you on several points ("It's called hiring people who know what they are doing"), I think you either overestimate the effectiveness of only installing an anti-virus or underestimate the ability of stupid kids to really ***** up computers.
You seemed to insinuate that installing an anti-virus was absolutely all you had to do to keep the machines clean; if your claim that they really are clean is true, I would assume that you also spent a fair amount of time setting up restrictive user accounts, meticulously setting permissions, finding the right schedules for various scans and defrags, etc. If you have indeed done this, please give yourself a big pat on the back, I mean it. These are some of the first things that every IT pro should know, but something that way to many dumbasses hired by the school system (it's pretty evident in Knox County, TN) just don't care about.- jdfalk, on 06/15/2008, -0/+0First I am a technology director for a school district. Push updates on a regular basis with WSUS then roll out a clean image with everything slip streamed every couple of months. Windows by default on a domain uses restricted user accounts, has enhanced file permissions (although you can then use hisec.pol to increase this.) You can also try not being a jackass and being a competent MS admin who uses group policy and restricts access. Two simple policies "Restrict drive access" and "Hide these drives in My Computer" and wow kids can't modify system files. Setup Bios restrictions and once again DON'T BE A JACKASS. God I hate how little people on Digg actually know about Windows Administration. Its always "WINDOWS BE EVIL LINUX FTW!!!!!!!" I love my mac, i run linux web servers and pretty much anything facing outward is linux because IIS Scares the ***** out of me.
- HPMNick, on 06/14/2008, -0/+0Yep. Its called group policy. Get an admin who knows how to use it, and you are set.
You are also very correct. Being in the IT industry, I'd say 1 in 100 knows how to use Linux. It would be impossible to find a compitent staff.
Linux is good for a few specific tasks, but it truly is horrible for a desktop machine for the average person. In order to get a lot of software and hardware to work right, you pretty much need to use the command line. A command line to the average user is like garlic to vampires.
Windows is pretty much as automatic as you get. This leads to massive security problems, since that trojan is automatically downloaded and run by your browser (for your convenience), that USB key with a built in root kit is auto launched upon insertion, and that program you install off the web automatically overwrites important system files and now brings you deeply inserted adware. The other side of the coin is that when you insert a webcam, usb key, PCI card, etc... It just works after you put in the driver disc and sit there as it does everything for you.
Linux won't do that, and it shouldn't do that. Two different philosophies, two different ways of doing things. One just happens to be better for the average person.- marx2k, on 06/15/2008, -0/+0"Being in the IT industry, I'd say 1 in 100 knows how to use Linux. It would be impossible to find a compitent staff."
WANTED: Systems Administrator with solid Unix/Linux experience. Min. 4 years administration experience in a multi-user e
- marx2k, on 06/15/2008, -0/+0"Being in the IT industry, I'd say 1 in 100 knows how to use Linux. It would be impossible to find a compitent staff."
- lmbb20, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2"If they can't keep their Windows machines working, how would they be expected to keep the Linux ones working?"
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