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The bet is on! Ubuntu vs. Microsoft. Help Ubuntu win!

ubuntuforums.org — This guy has a bet with a friend. This is the deal: He has to use Ubuntu for 30 days. IF there is anything he can ’t do on Ubuntu (except for games which his friend reluctantly conceded is Microsoft turf) that he can do on Vista, then he gets a brand new laptop courtesy of his buddy. IF on the other hand, he loses, he has to pay for his new laptop.

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  • thedragon4453, on 11/15/2007, -10/+141If you were just comparing the OS's, then I do think that Ubuntu is better. However, if you strictly talking about what you can do on each OS, then I'd not take that bet. MS's market share is still such that there is bound to be something for which there is no equivalent on Linux.
    • NSMike, on 11/15/2007, -0/+37I think the conditions of the bet are that it would have to be something he would normally do. I wouldn't take that bet otherwise.
      • DashingLeech, on 11/15/2007, -1/+26Yes, otherwise "Generate a BSOD by trying to open a Word Document" would count as something you can do in Windows but not Ubuntu Linux.
      • Wrathernaut, on 11/15/2007, -1/+24A lot of people normally get spyware and viruses.
        I've been unable to do this on my Ubuntu installation.
    • solonGFX, on 11/15/2007, -15/+9Microsoft's OneNote...
      • aaronm67, on 11/15/2007, -1/+13It's not compatible with OneNote, but Basket (http://basket.kde.org ) is a very good note-taking app.
      • cosmicdreams, on 11/15/2007, -3/+15Or Gnome's tomboy (http://live.gnome.org/Tomboy) which I believe is in the default installation of Ubuntu (it was for me anyway)
        • natenovs, on 11/15/2007, -2/+11you dont know what one note does, do you?
          • jackyyll, on 11/15/2007, -0/+5They kill any humans name that is written on them?
      • Kazbaeden, on 11/15/2007, -1/+12One note is the photoshop of note taking programs. It is THE killer app for students. Do these applications support ink? Can you search ink? Is handwriting recognition tied in with the handwriting recognition of the OS which is ~99% accurate. Can you search text in images? Can you OCR text from images and paste into your notes? Can you interface with outlook?

        I'm guessing the answer is "No" to most of these.
      • Micktion, on 11/15/2007, -5/+1Off the top of my head... How about:-

        Itunes
        Sync your phone with an address book.
        Run 3D Studio Max.
        Browse web sites like Stage6 which use not so common active-x controls

        Sure I could come up with a dozen more very popular things that are really difficult or impossible to do on Ubuntu
        • MeneerR, on 11/15/2007, -3/+9First of .. its about DOING something. Not DOING something with a SPECIFIC piece of software.

          So
          iTunes => Amarok/Rhythmbox,
          PhoneSync => i'm not sure its in the repo's yet but its there,
          3d Studio Max => Blender (like Photoshop is better than gimp, blender makes 3d studio max look like a children's app)
          Stage6 vids work out of the box using the default video plugin

          Any more questions?
          • eugene2x, on 11/15/2007, -12/+2Hahaha you really expect a free piece of software like Blender to actually be BETTER than a several-thousand dollar app that the company took years to produce? Gimme a break.
          • eugene2x, on 11/15/2007, -4/+1.
          • redmaxx, on 11/15/2007, -2/+5What single Linux application will download podcasts, manage my music and sync to my iPod?
          • Uriptical, on 11/15/2007, -0/+3@redmaxx

            Songbird?
          • Micktion, on 11/15/2007, -0/+3Try syncing ur IPOD using Amarok...

            How about installing simple applications like Skype (that come with no installer for Ubuntu) in under 10mins? Without having gone to an instructional web page telling you how to do it?

            A lot of the time its not good enough to provide a freeware "easy" alternatives, because we're living in a world of COLLABORATION, if you're using software that doesn't allow you to collaborate with most people then I think that's an issue.
          • lengau, on 11/18/2007, -0/+1@redmaxx - Amarok. It does all that and more.
        • SuperFarStucker, on 11/15/2007, -2/+2Add music to your zune?
      • se1zure, on 11/15/2007, -2/+1I can bet he didn't make that bet, and he is just a normal user who is trying to recieve help in setting up ubuntu (trust me, it's nearly impossible to get help in a fast manner on those forums)
      • Nysul, on 11/15/2007, -0/+1I don't know why you are being dugg down. Onenote is MS' killer ap. There are some decent mac and linux alternatives, but Onenote definitely raises the bar. I would be lost in my classes without it (I have these gigantic note folders from my undergrad that I've never even looked twice at. Thank the gods for electronic notes).
    • stillasleep00, on 11/15/2007, -7/+9I would run ubuntu if it weren't the worst platform for photography. But I am thinking about making a ubuntu drive partition...
      • Hermmunster, on 11/14/2007, -1/+2I understand your point and I agree at least in part. I've been able to do some things in Linux such as open RAF files with the programs installed when Ubuntu was installed whereas a friend had to purchase a special program to open his RAF files under Windows. He was pleased I could open and edit those files with nothing extra needed.
      • JustAboutReal, on 11/14/2007, -8/+5between the gimp, and inkscape I think ubuntu is fine for photo/design
        • Smuikas, on 11/14/2007, -1/+11As long as you're not doing anything for print, it's fine. I'm sure there are plugins to get CMYK support for gimp, but... what a pain.

          The only major flaw - and it's not in the OS, it's on adobe's part - in Ubuntu is that there's no CS3 for it. Granted, I haven't tried to use crossover for it yet.
          • strangewill, on 11/15/2007, -6/+4I wouldn't say it's a flaw on Adobe's part, they're not obligated to program for Linux.
          • MeneerR, on 11/15/2007, -0/+2They don't have to no. But it is a flaw. I wouldn't buy for that particular reason.
            But when they port all their apps to Apollo, they will be supporting all OS. So their intention and their practise are just out of sync.
      • bieber, on 11/15/2007, -0/+3As a professional photographer who made the switch almost a year ago, I'm afraid I fail to see the problem. F-Spot works fine for viewing/organizing RAW files (although I'm considering writing a plugin to get multiple switchable libraries and make syncing between computers a little easier), and UFRAW and GIMP do my conversions and editing. You'll hear people yelling about CMYK, but if you're strictly a photographer, it's not an issue at all. I have yet to hear of a photo lab actually requesting that you convert a photograph to CMYK color before sending it to them...
        • redmaxx, on 11/15/2007, -0/+1So if you're under a specific set of circumstances, it works great. Otherwise...
        • stillasleep00, on 11/15/2007, -0/+2I realize that with some effort it could work, but... I could never leave my Adobe Lightroom setup. Pure brilliance.
      • bieber, on 11/15/2007, -2/+3As a professional photographer who made the switch almost a year ago, I'm afraid I fail to see the problem. F-Spot works fine for viewing/organizing RAW files (although I'm considering writing a plugin to get multiple switchable libraries and make syncing between computers a little easier), and UFRAW and GIMP do my conversions and editing. You'll hear people yelling about CMYK, but if you're strictly a photographer, it's not an issue at all. I have yet to hear of a photo lab actually requesting that you convert a photograph to CMYK color before sending it to them...
    • ruskie, on 11/15/2007, -12/+2malmware?
    • Hermmunster, on 11/15/2007, -24/+10Linux does more behind the scenes than Windows does to protect your computer, be much more secure, and protect your privacy. With Windows Vista you lost almost all your rights. You let Microsoft spy on you by implementing data mining and reporting in 47 programs. These programs report back to Microsoft what you have and what you do. They claim they can't identify you from the information and that they don't maintain it. First, it would be crazy to just collect the information and not maintain it. It would be a waste of our bandwidth. Second they send back your IP so they can identify you. These 47 programs operate (in real life terms) as a hidden camera. They watch you and report on you. The WGA/WGN is a program that essentially says to everyone "you are a thief, you are a thief, you must prove to me you are not a thief." I don't like that and I don't like them installing that software on my computer without my knowledge. You would no more let Walmart install a hidden camera in your home to protect and ensure they are not being ripped off than you should let Microsoft install this privacy violating software onto your computer, especially without your knowledge.

      When you understand that, you should recognize that they also "drafted" the hardware manufacturers requiring them to implement circuitry into their products to keep you from modifying the circuitry to keep them from monitoring your activities when it comes to content. That's correct, when you buy a monitor, a video card, a sound card, a dvd drive there is circuitry in those specifically defined by Microsoft to allow them to detect and deny you use if you altered the circuitry. This is their attempt to ensure that you don't try to bypass the DRM infestation they programmed into Windows Vista.

      So, behind the scenes I would say that Linux is the choice for most because they don't violate your privacy nor to they work to supplant your rights of ownership and your choice to do with your computer what you choose to do. You can be guaranteed you won't have 47 programs spying on you, a WGN/WGA program monitoring you, and to worry about whether your content will play on another OS or not due to how Microsoft has learned that lock-in mechanisms help prop up to maintain their monopoly.
      • monkeyboy7706, on 11/15/2007, -2/+12I would say windows does more in the background to try and be more secure. Linux is just more secure without having to do extra.
        • KibibyteBrain, on 11/15/2007, -0/+7Well, now that Vista has real user abstraction just like Unix systems have had for decades, it basically solves the main security woes that Windows had inherently.
          Now in terms of vulnerabilities, Linux does much more security stuff at lower levels in the OS, while Windows handles it at higher levels. This should make Windows security measures easier to circumvent. But with both OSes supporting hardware DEP and handling processes with true user level privileges, I really can't say either OS looks particularly bad security wise at this time.
      • schoate09, on 11/15/2007, -3/+13WALL OF TEXT!
      • EXreaction, on 11/15/2007, -3/+7Exaggerate much?
        • objectcode, on 11/14/2007, -1/+2why, you don't see microsoft doing that?
      • Micktion, on 11/15/2007, -3/+8Herm... get help you're delusional. Windows doesn't secretly phone home. Microsoft doesn't need to invade people's privacy to make money, in fact their busines model relies on them not doing these sorts of things, corporates would drop them overnight. I think you're getting confused with other companies with server based systems and advertising based business models.
        • int19h, on 12/10/2007, -0/+1Corporations would not drop Microsoft over night, even if everything they did were reported to Microsoft. That's the genius of vendor lock-in!
      • chugger1992, on 11/15/2007, -2/+5spinning truth much?
        They collect non-identifiable info for error-reports. You know, so they can IMPROVE. When I was on Ubuntu, the error reporting didn't even work. How am I supposed to report that?
    • danc4498, on 11/15/2007, -8/+4Is anybody streaming windows media center to an xbox 360 with Ubuntu yet?
      • NoodleGuy, on 11/15/2007, -0/+4This is one big thing keeping me from switching to Myth TV. Right now I can stream my MCE to my 360 and it runs smooth. I have a dedicated Media Center PC that I'd love to convert to Myth but then I'd have to hook yet another device up to my TV.
      • jackyyll, on 11/15/2007, -4/+2Why in the world would you want to stream an operating system to your xbox 360? :D
        • Kidge, on 11/15/2007, -1/+1lot of people have tv's without DVI or VGA inputs
          but then again u can buy one of those chords
          maybe to go across the house using wifi?
    • KibibyteBrain, on 11/15/2007, -3/+13The biggest thing: Adobe CS3. The linux apps cannot touch what what CS3 can and needs to do for those that use it. Any pro apps basically, as they will only run on MS windows or the Mac.
      Also, as ironic as it is, engineerings software/compilers for obscure microcontrollers, and tons of stuff like this is untouched by Linux or FOSS. It stinks as this is probably one area Linux should dominate, but it ends of falling way short of windows. This is the sole reason I have a windows VM.
      Also, some development hardware for engineers has ZERO linux support. As in, there is nothing like it for Linux at all hardware wise. This just really sucks, because it just literally means Linux is not an option if you need that kind of hardware.
      • m0tbaillie, on 11/15/2007, -3/+6Not really, actually. Coming from someone who does research at the college level across various distributions of FreeBSD, Windows, and Linux, I can tell you that Linux has access to some of the most robusts scientific toolsets, compilers, and libraries I've ever come across. In fact, most hardcore scientific software is written exclusively for *NIX environments because pretty much all supercomputers (this is actually the area I work in) are run on stripped-down GNU/Linux distributions.
      • rootneg2, on 11/15/2007, -1/+4bump/digg for truth regarding compilers for funky microcontrollers. A freind of mine is an electrical engineering major, and some of the hardware that they program on is the worst possible combination of proprietary, outdated, and obscure; they're far too obscure to amass any sort of open-source developer community (sometimes the hardware is only used for teaching purposes with a single course), and since there are no "real-world" implementations there is no need for in-house active development either; often times the company that provides the software is no longer able to even provide simple bug-support since the code and hardware have been static for so long (decades even). Most of the time they will even use a proprietary interface or "development board" with similarly obscure drivers, so even if you can run the compiler in linux, getting it running on the microcontroller still takes windows. Plus, since there is often some very low-level codevoodoo at work, using wine is out of the question.

        In short, it's a huge pain in the butt. and the only real solution would be to rebuild the whole course, development board, chipset, compiler, and frontend software package from scratch. That's not going to happen anytime soon.
      • int19h, on 12/10/2007, -0/+1You're right. However, Photoshop CS2 runs on Linux through Wine! Gimpshop looks similar to Photoshop and Krita has CMYK support. I bet it won't be long until CS3 runs too! :)
    • brundlefly76, on 11/15/2007, -3/+4The fact the Ubuntu has marginal modern game support is *extremely* important.
      Why?
      Because 38% of all consumer software sold in 1996 were games, and 29% were education/edutainment of similar production style (i.e. high end multimedia products).

      The rest was productivity software, at 33% - this is the only slice of the software market where Linux actually competes on the desktop - 1/3 of all consumer software sold.

      Meanwhile, most of Linux's major productivity titles, including the GIMP, Firefox, OpenOffice, and others, *also have native Windows versions* that work just as well and in some cases better then their Linux counterparts.

      Yes, you can run some Windows games under Ubuntu, and yes there are some native Linux ports of some modern games, but as mentioned, it is defeinitely not a platform gamers would be happy living with. There is a huge difference between becing able to run 7 titles vs the other 300+ titles released annually.

      IDC 2006: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_199 ...
      • Verdanic, on 11/15/2007, -1/+12Did you just source a statistic from 1996?

        We're talking about computers here. If I bought the most cutting edge desktop today it'd be out of date by Monday.
        • brundlefly76, on 11/15/2007, -0/+2Oops sorry I had searched for 2006 and thought thats what I found - but were not talking about computer hardware, were talking about consumer software, which is an entirely different business Hardware relevance may fade quickly but that is not at all tied to the growth of the categories of software they buy.

          If anything, the entertainment/edutainment segment of the software market has only *grown* relative to productivity software in the last 10 years.

          Linux has not gained competitive desktop share because the community writes off big title multimedia as a relatively unimportant market segment because the open source business model does not lend itself to effectively developing these types of software products. However, it is indeed the most important desktop software segment for consumers.

          Millions of people buy computer gaming consoles *just to play games* on them - what is the consumer value of using an OS which (largely) is limited to productivity software?
      • int19h, on 12/10/2007, -0/+1DosBox + ZSnes + ScummVM + Wine = a gazillion games you can play! If you add inn the many additional emulators, Java, Flash and brilliant native Linux games like Warsow, Tremolous, Glest and Wesnoth, you have enough games for a lifetime! If you want to play cutting edge games, one of the consoles should do the trick.

        Using Windows for gaming should be the last resort!
    • CDRaff, on 11/15/2007, -2/+1Any music creation software. You will never get anything like FLStudio or Cakewalk made open source.
  • quintusfabius, on 11/15/2007, -16/+51Microsoft's main advantage IS their market share. The main reason I use windows for most things is simply because most people do, I'm used to it and can be the most compatible with other computers. Howabout this for something you can only do with windows, run applications/documents designed for windows, like most stuff out there...
    • anschelsc, on 11/15/2007, -9/+27Actually, almost all office documents can be opened with Linux, and most apps (except games) have equivalents.
      • NJank, on 11/15/2007, -23/+35inferior equivalents, but yes, they exist.
        • starsky51, on 11/15/2007, -18/+20inferior equivalents? you sound like you work in marketing.
        • directrix13, on 11/15/2007, -12/+11Blanket statements let your intelligence really shine.
        • objectcode, on 11/15/2007, -4/+6examples?
        • m0tbaillie, on 11/15/2007, -3/+7What's inferior about which applications, specifically? Have you ever used Linux or any of its "inferior equivalents" or are you just generalizing?
          • Macskeeball, on 11/15/2007, -2/+4GIMP vs Photoshop is one example.
    • jeremyduffy, on 11/15/2007, -30/+20That's not true. Microsoft's OS is farily straightforward and beats the heck out of most 'nix flavors. I mean seriously, how's someone's grandma supposed to use a machine where you have to stinking "mount" the floppy for pity's sake?
      • aliengoods, on 11/15/2007, -3/+30First, who still uses a floppy?

        Second, automount takes care of all other media (at least that I can think of).
      • TheHydrogens, on 11/15/2007, -8/+20A. Who uses floppy disks anymore? You can get a flash drive for a negligible amount of money, and Ubuntu will find that just fine.
        B. I can't even verify that you have to mount floppy disks because I can't find a computer that still has a floppy drive.
        C. I find it very hard to believe that a computer that still has a floppy drive is even capable of running Windows Vista.
        • Matt2k, on 11/15/2007, -7/+14I have a floppy drive on my quad-core workstation. I've even used the floppy a few times recently, once to flash the bios, another to burn in some hardware, once to run a memory diagnostic, and once for a harddrive diagnostic (Which was floppy only). Don't quite get what you're after?
          • TheHydrogens, on 11/15/2007, -3/+12Are all of those things booting from a floppy, or do you have a floppy that you are using inside an OS? Also, how many grandmas need to do those things?
            I was simply after the fact that jeremy's point wasn't very good at all. Just as a side note, you can get some great diagnostic tools that run from a CD.
        • jakem1, on 11/15/2007, -1/+9Vista runs fine on my 4 year old PC and it has a floppy drive. I'm damn proud of my floppy drive!!!
      • soopafly, on 11/15/2007, -10/+21Straight forward as in having to click five times to safely eject a USB drive? Or clicking the Start button to Shutdown?
        • aaronm67, on 11/15/2007, -5/+6Well...to be fair, its not a "start" button anymore. It's a round ball with a flag inside.
        • EXreaction, on 11/15/2007, -4/+3Ya, just so ***** hard to take 2 clicks and a half second longer to shut down. OH WHAT WILL WE DO?
        • redmaxx, on 11/15/2007, -0/+3What clicks? Is the light flashing? No? Yank the drive. That's what the default write policy is, and I've never lost data that way.
      • TomFrost, on 11/15/2007, -3/+21What's a floppy?

        Seriously, though -- I'm not sure when you last used Linux, but trying ANY of the mainstream distributions (especially Ubuntu), you won't find any differences between what Windows does automatically and what Linux does automatically. Actually, Ubuntu is *better* as far as being automatic goes, because it has far more drivers built-in and ready to run than Vista does. It doesn't even bring up a "wizard" -- the device just works.

        As evidenced by a Digg submission yesterday, Wal-Mart's sold many cheap Linux systems to people who otherwise wouldn't have/learn to use a computer, and lots of people's grandmas were able to pick up on it almost immediately. Linux isn't where it was 10, 5, or even 1 year ago. It's not fair to bash it based on incredibly old information.
        • latova, on 11/15/2007, -3/+10Gutsy's printer handling is amazing, for example. No popups, no "how do you want to install it", you plug the printer in and it works.
          • monkeyboy7706, on 11/15/2007, -6/+2I would love to say I have tried that unfortunately my printer just refuses to work on linux, crappy lexmark junk.

            Still i use my printer about once every few months, boot in to windows and spend an hour trying to get it to print because the heads are gummed up with dried ink.
          • monkeyboy7706, on 11/15/2007, -3/+6I would love to say I have tried that unfortunately my printer just refuses to work on linux, crappy lexmark junk.

            Still i use my printer about once every few months, boot in to windows and spend an hour trying to get it to print because the heads are gummed up with dried ink.
        • redmaxx, on 11/15/2007, -1/+1I won't find *ANY* differences? I put Gutsy on my desktop. It hangs when it gets to usplash. This is a known problem with Ubuntu 64-bit and Nvidia.
      • lostinbrave, on 11/15/2007, -4/+14My grandma uses it and she has less problems with it than windows.
      • dlsspy, on 11/15/2007, -1/+9Thanks for the visual of your grandma mounting floppies.

        The floppy died when networks and CDRs became ubiquitous. It's an overall bad example.

        What does your grandma do (when she's not mounting floppies) that is intrinsically complex, but with an interface on Windows that simplifies it sufficiently and isn't reproduced elsewhere?
      • objectcode, on 11/15/2007, -1/+5lets bring up windows 95 when talking about windows. i mean if were talking about older versions of linux, might as well do the same for windows
      • int19h, on 12/10/2007, -0/+1My grandfather used Linux to surf the web, send e-mail and write documents. It worked great.
    • chesscat, on 11/15/2007, -17/+1Most flies enjoy the taste of *****, too, but I figured out I don't like it without running with the herd.
      • BJNK, on 11/15/2007, -0/+13Was something lost in translation there?
    • BlueStreak69, on 11/15/2007, -1/+3There's always the option of using WineTools.
  • lovesujoy, on 11/15/2007, -22/+33i would choose ubuntu anyday over windows, the reason is that i can do everything in it, that i need to do, and still use an OS that is free, open source and stable.......
    • SuperWinner, on 11/15/2007, -2/+16Long as the desktop OS connects to the network server shares, why does it matter if the user is on Ubuntu, Windows or even OSX for that matter?
      • CrazyZ, on 11/15/2007, -3/+13Because I can't easily view/edit all those wonderful Autocad drawings I have to view and edit on a daily basis with any Linux distro.
    • CrazyZ, on 11/14/2007, -0/+1I actually agree with this statement. If the OS you choose does what you need, then use it. I like ubuntu and opensuse but I am very critical of them when used in a "microsoft manner" way. How about we don't compare them at all? If I develop in .net, I use MS. My work is 100% MS now, so at work I use MS, but I still tinker with OSX and various Linux distros. Depends on what you are doing.
    • NeoCortex, on 11/15/2007, -10/+62Vista is perfectly stable. In fact, I'm using it righ
      • orangefly, on 11/15/2007, -4/+7very nice
      • zgeorge, on 11/15/2007, -5/+10LOL!
      • shagen, on 11/15/2007, -1/+11and here I thought the writers were on strike...^_^'
      • chugger1992, on 11/15/2007, -15/+2howd you click submit?
        I'm using Vista right now...
        yes I know you were trying to be funny.
      • mitchlourens, on 11/15/2007, -3/+5that was one of the most clever comments i've read in a while
    • EXreaction, on 11/14/2007, -5/+7Why do I keep hearing how much more stable Linux is and yet have all kinds of problems with apps crashing when I use it?

      Especially that damned network manager. 95% of the time, if I have to restart the pc, it's because that POS decided to nuke itself and wouldn't let me connect to any network again or open the panel for it.

      On the other hand, I haven't had an app crash in Vista for a long time (excluding Firefox when I am browsing Digg from time to time).
      • init100, on 11/15/2007, -6/+3"Why do I keep hearing how much more stable Linux is and yet have all kinds of problems with apps crashing when I use it?"

        They crash because you want them to crash, so that you can say "Linux suX0rz and Vista r0x0rz".
      • zwaldowski, on 11/14/2007, -5/+2"killall" is not crashing. Neither is xkill.
      • m0tbaillie, on 11/15/2007, -6/+3killall knetworkmanager ; service NetworkManager restart && service NetworkManagerDispatch restart ; knetworkmanager

        Complain less. If you're having issues with applications crashing, then it sounds like operator error. I have an application crash in Linux maybe once every other month, if that (keep in mind, I haven't rebooted in 2 or 3 months, either)
        • mitchlourens, on 11/15/2007, -0/+2Do you perform updates that require restarts at all?
        • redmaxx, on 11/15/2007, -1/+3Oh yes, NetworkManager spontaneously crashing on a brand new install (has happened to me) is somehow operator error.

          Shut. up.
        • Jawmht, on 11/15/2007, -1/+2"Those damn users, their like customers only don't pay us. And what the ***** is up with all this " bug reporting" they've been doing. I'm like SHUT THE ***** UP NOOB! ITS YOUR FAULT! NOT THE SOFTWARES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" ~Inside the mind of a m0tbaillie.
      • macoafi, on 11/15/2007, -0/+4Uh, that's not Linux crashing. That's the APPLICATION crashing. All you're saying is that the (probably beta) software whatever distro you tried packaged up and put in their repositories to appease the users who demanded new things even if they don't work right yet...wasn't as perfect as the software that you buy in the store. That says nothing about the underlying operating system.
        • EXreaction, on 11/15/2007, -0/+1True, it is the application, but, I have seen this same exact network manager in every linux distro I have used. If something is that widely used it should be fixed, and I would consider it a part of the OS since it is always installed.
          • init100, on 11/17/2007, -0/+2So a flaw in Paint or Solitaire is a flaw in Windows?
  • schestowitz, on 11/15/2007, -21/+3Not sure linking to forum threads is more than gossip, but maybe it's a matter of preference.
  • ToadLeg, on 11/15/2007, -20/+20The one thing you can't do on Linux that you can do on Windows is speech recognition.
    • SuperWinner, on 11/15/2007, -6/+25http://sourceforge.net/projects/ossrp/
      • XVampireX, on 11/15/2007, -5/+12Yes you can do speech recognition.
        • dankers, on 11/14/2007, -9/+5Are you seriously going to compare the Linux version 0.0.1

          That is what it says on there and I find it hard to believe that it is a finished and polished product.
          Although Linux has a lot of polishing to do and they are known for their poor GUI development, Windows is a finished product.

          Ubuntu doesn't have the Windows Media Center if you get the ultimate version of Vista, but pointless if you have no need for a media center.
        • Kazbaeden, on 11/15/2007, -3/+15"Developpement of speech recognition software and libraries for the linux system. Should allow evryone to integrate speech recognition in his software very easily."

          I really hope he wasn't using his speach recognition software to dictate that...
      • RobotBuddha, on 11/15/2007, -2/+9I've been using linux on the desktop as my sole OS for about eight years now. I have a ton of pride in how far it's come in that time. But, really? Come on now. That's like someone complaining about lack of a photo editing suite on linux and then offering up tuxpaint. Props to them for the effort, but that's just not even close to dragon at this point.
    • airiox, on 11/15/2007, -4/+6I surely can't sync my zune, I'll bring my zune over and it'll be a fail for him.
    • airiox, on 11/15/2007, -10/+2I surely can't sync my zune, I'll bring my zune over and it'll be a fail for him.
    • ryanmbruce, on 11/15/2007, -0/+4Voce is cross platform.
      http://voce.sourceforge.net/
      It uses CMU Sphinx4 and FreeTTS
    • macoafi, on 11/15/2007, -1/+4"Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all"
  • Blafhert, on 11/15/2007, -27/+147I hope this guy isn't into audio and video editing. Otherwise, he will lose...
    • SuperWinner, on 11/15/2007, -65/+9I suppose only your rounded corner fag Mac can do video editing? Pompus ass...

      http://osswin.sourceforge.net/#video
      • Jacob, on 11/14/2007, -1/+5if you want to do professional stuff mac or windows are both good to use. Unfortunatly avid and final cut are both not on linux, neither is premier though that one is slightly less important.
      • TomFrost, on 11/15/2007, -1/+9I agree his comment was pompous, but I wish I could dig you down more than once for being a hypocrite. How is your comment NOT pompous? What the hell is a "fag mac"? I use both Linux and Mac OS X on a daily basis, because they each have their strengths. I do UNIX administration, wed development, and graphic design. The latter two often run much more smoothly with the wide array of mac tools available. And somehow this makes me -- (or is it my computer?) -- a homosexual?

        Grow the hell up.
      • luchid, on 11/15/2007, -6/+11Ughhh. Using gay as a derogative term, and even more so the word "*****" makes you a homophobe. And homophobia is just repressed homosexuality.
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retri ...

        Plus you look like a 12 year-old redneck when you say that.
        • ilovenicotine, on 11/15/2007, -8/+3Using the word gay and ***** makes someone scared of homosexuals? Buy a dictionary you donut puncher.
        • pnyphnz, on 11/15/2007, -2/+2Homophobia is not repressed homosexuality. That is ridiculous. There are plenty of straight men who feel threatened by homosexuals due to their upbringing and the ever churning propaganda machine but they are not secretly gay.

          Also, gay and ***** no longer exclusively refer to homosexuals if you've been living outside the US for the past twenty years.
        • damonic, on 11/15/2007, -0/+4You're right - homophobia is not repressed homosexuality. But, many of the homophobes in the media lately are latent homosexuals. Ted Haggard, Larry Craig, Mark Foley, etc. It is easy to make that connection.
        • tdous, on 11/14/2007, -0/+1Whether it's true or not, it's a pretty weak comeback to a very weak "point".
        • DRINKxREDxBULL, on 11/15/2007, -0/+2"Plus you look like a 12 year-old redneck when you say that."

          You are a bigot.
        • Fatality, on 11/15/2007, -1/+2STFU you gay *****. :)
      • mym6, on 11/14/2007, -1/+2Great, a bunch of links. Have you ever actually USED these tools to edit video? I agree with the parent poster, if you do video editing, Linux just isn't as nice to use as Windows or OS X. I have never been able to import and edit video and then get it burned to a DVD in Linux without some kind of major glitch along the way. In the end, it's just a painful process. I don't want to take the time to figure out which of the 30+ apps you link to will work worth a damn.
      • EXreaction, on 11/15/2007, -1/+5We are talking about Windows and Ubuntu, where the ***** do you get Mac from this all?
      • sanotaan, on 11/15/2007, -1/+2for what it's worth, i'm pretty sure i'd rather edit images, video, music and audio in emacs than any of the tools i've used on linux to do the same.
    • rudy23, on 11/15/2007, -11/+100I hope he isnt into drm. otherwise he will lose
      • Fatality, on 11/15/2007, -0/+2I'm into DRM. I think i've already lost...
    • XVampireX, on 11/15/2007, -13/+9I hope this blafhert guy is joking, because last time I heard, they did all hollywood movies with linux involved pretty well..
      • Bostocks, on 11/15/2007, -3/+17The use linux to render hollywood movies because autodesk maya is availalbe for linux, and they can spare the cost of an os across their render farm. But video and sound editting is done on pc or mac workstations. Apple and Adobe are kings in the sound and video editting software world, and neither build for linux.
        • toekneebullard, on 11/15/2007, -2/+6Neither Apple or Adobe are the kings of audio editing software. Apple bought Logic, but it's got nothing compared to the market share of Pro Tools from digidesign.
        • polyGone, on 11/15/2007, -0/+4Well, to be fair Autodesk Flame and Flint both run on Linux and, from what I've read, it seems like a fairly competent compositional component.

          http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID= ...
    • zeejay, on 11/15/2007, -2/+21The highest-end video and film tools on the market run on Linux, not Windows. If you need to ask the price, you can't afford them.
      http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?id=10052 ...
    • nbussiere, on 11/15/2007, -2/+3Audio Tools like Nuendo or ProTools, with High End Audio card (starting at 1500$)... pretty sure Ubuntu's not there. Not talking about a free audio editing tool to modify my voice pitch bend, talking about doing business with it (recording and mixing 18 tracks, output in AC3, etc.).
      • tgoose, on 11/14/2007, -0/+2"Recording and mixing 18 tracks" is something ANY DAW can do, that's really not something you need to use Windows or OS X for. Yes, Ardour works just fine. Where it falls down (for me) is the fluidity of editing (compared to Pyramix) and the availability of quality plugins (compared to most pro DAWs.) I would have no qualms about using Ardour for multitrack classical recording/mixing *whatsoever* if I had access to a Linux system with the hardware to run a proper multitrack session.

        AC3 is apparently possible with some JACK-enabled plugin, I can't guarantee that it works but I don't see why it wouldn't: http://ardour.org/node/612
  • baalzebub, on 11/15/2007, -19/+11i would help but since this specifically pointed to ubuntu and not Linux in general i wont bother, there is much more to Linux than slamming an ubuntu install on your PC, try Debian (the father of ubuntu), try Slackware (Slackware is like a trusted old friend to me), and if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty try Linux from Scratch, or even Crux Linux which is a great system for some really hands on learning for building your own custom system that wont be nearly as time consuming and tedious as Linux from Scratch...
    • c0ldevil, on 11/14/2007, -6/+1Arch Linux owns them all
    • Tyr7BE, on 11/14/2007, -1/+18Ohhh yeah. That's a great idea. Let's give some guy who's used to Windows a Slackware install. Jesus christ what's wrong with you people? A default slack installation would take WEEKS of fine tuning to even approach the level of usability that Ubu gives by default.
    • malkir, on 11/14/2007, -2/+2Why would you want to replace any easy to setup/use linux distro with one that isn't?
    • Chandon, on 11/14/2007, -2/+8I really don't understand what it is with you Ubuntu haters. Ubuntu is a perfectly viable expert-level GNU+Linux distribution - and it's a hell of a lot less effort to use it than Slackware or Gentoo.
      • RobotBuddha, on 11/14/2007, -0/+2I don't even like gnome and I still recomend ubuntu over kubuntu most of the time. Like it or not, ubuntu is the distro that a newcomer is going the have the easiest time with. Partially from the large repositories, but mostly just from the fact that he'll have more help out there than with any other distro. Both from experienced users, and fellow new users.
    • halobender, on 11/15/2007, -2/+16I don't understand Linux users bashing each other's distros.
    • lunarworks, on 11/15/2007, -1/+12"i would help but since this specifically pointed to ubuntu and not Linux in general i wont bother, there is much more to Linux than slamming an ubuntu install on your PC, try Debian (the father of ubuntu), try Slackware..."

      This is why Linux fails. It is not, and never will be, a united front. Microsoft can bank on the fact that all of the distros hate each other, and are constantly trying to cut-down any single one that comes out in front as a leader.
    • Hermmunster, on 11/15/2007, -0/+9I would no more try to build my Linux from scratch than I would try to build my own refrigerator. I would no more try building linux from scratch than I would build my own car. I would no more try to build Linux from scratch than I would program my own games, make my own keyboard, build my own TV, pave my own parking lot, etc. Just because it can be done (build Linux from scratch) doesn't mean it should be done. You should no more require this than to require the average person go out and become agrarian. We all can't run our own farms, or design our own circuitry, or write our own word processors. Never should we even elude to the idea that we are less a person because we choose to specialize in something else in life.

      I would say that your suggestion is the type of thing that actually crippled Linux for years and kills the hopes of Linux and I wish you would stop spreading this farce.
    • bradleyland, on 11/15/2007, -0/+6"if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty try Linux from Scratch"

      What? Yeah, thanks, but I'm not really interested in getting in to the nitty gritty of my OS. I just want to play a few games, write some email, browse some websites, then go outside and enjoy this beautiful 70-80 degree weather we're having lately.
  • dynacrylic, on 11/15/2007, -18/+5Tell your friend you want a 17inch MacBook pro with the 2.66 proc, 4gig ram, 250hard drive with the extended warranty- that's about 4 grand there.
  • russellnation, on 11/15/2007, -10/+4ah sweet my sd card reader works in gutsy it didn't in fiesty. btw what is this windows thing.
    • nullenigma, on 11/14/2007, -6/+8So Feisty is like Windows 98.... SE!
    • XVampireX, on 11/14/2007, -9/+7It's a Virus, there's an antivirus for it, and it's called Linux.
    • Hermmunster, on 11/15/2007, -6/+5Windows is an antiquated set of technologies developed in the 80s and 90s that is produced by a company that believes you are a thief and wants to control all things on your computer and what you do with them, and deny you the right to use them if you attempt to try something to the contrary.
      • slowmotiony, on 11/14/2007, -1/+3I believe you're talking about Apple.
  • Chewie67, on 11/15/2007, -41/+119Watch a DVD?

    Watch a BluRay DVD?

    Watch an HD DVD?

    Run Photoshop?

    There's a pretty long list...
    • mfrider, on 11/15/2007, -16/+28DVDs work without problems for me, i don't have HD or BluRay drives on my machine, but Photoshop, Dream Weaver and Illustrator can run under wine, I've done it before.
      • Linkage155, on 11/15/2007, -12/+8with that state of mind, the guy with Ubuntu will obviously win, he can emulate anything using wine, including a lot of games.
        • ucg1, on 11/15/2007, -3/+25Well no *****, I think that was kinda the point.

          Oh, and WINE is Not an Emulator.
        • ilovenicotine, on 11/15/2007, -3/+10Wine Is Not an Emulator. W I N E. Get it? Get it?
      • killakan, on 11/15/2007, -20/+35Using Wine to run any software would be effectively admitting that Ubuntu is not neck to neck with Windows. A true contest would be "No emulating Windows."
        • lostinbrave, on 11/15/2007, -4/+18Wine isn't an emulator its compatibility level. Emulator recreate the system, compatibility layers alow their programs to run.
        • ucg1, on 11/15/2007, -2/+27WINE allows Linux to do Windows apps and more. Why exclude it? It's part of what makes Linux a better choice.
        • archer75, on 11/15/2007, -5/+8Compatibility layer creates an environment that makes the app think it's running in it's native environment. It's software emulation.
        • RobotBuddha, on 11/14/2007, -1/+4If you're going that far, you're also going to have to ban anything on windows that uses its fake dos, cygwin, or mingw.
        • Derrekito, on 11/15/2007, -3/+2With that mentality, then would you have to negate things that run on windows that are open source, or simply non proprietary? When that is all said and done, let me know how well your OS works (starting with openGL and many network protocols).
        • mastertop, on 11/15/2007, -0/+2Derrekito:
          What the hell? opensource != linux (although the opposite might be false)
      • XVampireX, on 11/15/2007, -7/+12I have no problems with DVDs, I have no problems with HD DVD's either... especially those in MKV format. Photoshop, there's GIMP and it can do at least as much, although I agree the interface sucks... But Photoshop can be run via wine... or crossover office.
        • pt4117, on 11/15/2007, -6/+2Can you play a major studio HD DVD movie at full resolution?
        • MeneerR, on 11/15/2007, -1/+5Yes. Off course. The PC and modern monitors have been high-definition for quite years now.
          The whole HD quality crap has to do with the original resolution of televisions.

          A cheap ass flat-screen and a hd-avi run fine. If You think you need special HD hardware then you should really stop believing marketing.
        • Fatality, on 11/15/2007, -1/+1I don't quite think you understand what HD DVD is.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD
          • MeneerR, on 11/15/2007, -1/+1Now, thats' a different question all together. You're not talking about high-definition. You're talking about specific hardware support. If you have a HD avi-file it will work fine for sure. The question is, will a HD-dvd player work. Are they even built-into current modern computers already? If so, please tell me where..

            But honestly. I think they will get it to work when the times comes (when i have one), but:
            - who the hell is going to buy physical media at this time and age. I can't remember the last time I bought a cd or dvd.
            - de-encryption used opensource software by default is illegal in the US

            But it'll work. Which is usefull. Somebody has to buy those HD-DVD and put them on the internet for me.
      • Aitese, on 11/16/2007, -1/+1You 're being dugg up due to misinformation and not because you're right...firstly in the case of THIS bet, he is to do what he would NORMALLY do not try to accomplish every computing feat he can think of in 30 days...if he didn't already have an HD-DVD drive then the point is moot. Secondly I'm sure that the list you posted is wrong anyway.
    • myranttoyou, on 11/15/2007, -9/+21Yah, sure, but can the average user setup Linux and Wine to do this....
      • kepone, on 11/15/2007, -13/+17No, they can't..I'm a windows system admin, and last time i tried Ubuntu at home it took me 6 hours just to get it connected to my wireless network- just because there was an apostrophe in my SSID name. The average everyday user simply can not handle linux, unless they only need to do exactly what it does out of the box.
        • coldcarbon, on 11/15/2007, -2/+3 use "" when referring to items with '- in them everyone knows that :)
          • bradleyland, on 11/15/2007, -1/+9I think you just proved his point.
          • Glasyalabolis, on 11/15/2007, -2/+2But what is most important is the fact that someone came up with an answer relatively fast. I don't understand how it could have taken 6 hours to figure this out. Go to the software's forums and ask the people who interact with it daily. Ask and ye shall receive.
        • dlsspy, on 11/15/2007, -0/+9Do you feel that being a Windows admin should give you some sort of advantage when running a UNIX system?

          I've run large numbers of a wide variety of UNIX systems for over a decade and still get frustrated when someone asks me to do anything on Windows.

          I've written web servers and programs to grok HTTP in realtime from pcap files, but if you asked me to run your IIS server you'd be in pretty bad shape.

          Windows is different from everything else (and you could argue that with majority market share, everything else is different from Windows if most of this didn't predate it). The skills aren't necessarily transferable.
          • EtherGnat, on 11/15/2007, -5/+4"Do you feel that being a Windows admin should give you some sort of advantage when running a UNIX system?"

            Yes, absolutely. A person with a strong computer background has a tremendous advantage. We're familiar with the lexicon, troubleshooting techniques, leveraging support resources, and there are many similarities between the two systems. Having lots of Windows experience doesn't make you a Unix expert, but it definitely gives you a leg up.
          • daftman, on 11/15/2007, -7/+3Nope sorry. windows system are the worse Linux users. Especially when their head is filled with ego so much that it start to have its own gravitational field.
            Plus most windows system admin are point-and-click noobs. Most can't do advance shell scripts and WMI scripts to efficiently maintain windows.
          • twigboy, on 11/15/2007, -2/+4anything running IIS servers is in bad shape...
          • fr34k5h0w, on 11/15/2007, -1/+1I've been using Windows for years and I recently switched to Mac OS X and Linux on all of my machines. The command line feels very primitive at first (ls? What the hell is that for?). But after using command line for a few months you feel so much more efficient typing ls instead of dir. Why, I have no idea. So I agree that if you are a Windows admin you'll feel out of place with *nix's commands and case sensitive file names that Windows babies you with.
        • Smuikas, on 11/15/2007, -7/+2So uh, why not change your SSID to something without an apostrophe in it? Why do you need an apostrophe, is it something like, "Simple-minded User's a Tool"?
          • EtherGnat, on 11/15/2007, -1/+8Probably because he didn't realize the apostrophe was causing the problem, you simple-minded tool.
        • logandurand, on 11/15/2007, -3/+3Why would anyone put weird characters into an SSID? Considering that you know a network needs to be accessed by a wide variety of devices (PDAs, phones, etc.) that may or may not support unusual characters, it just seems like a dumb thing to do. I don't think it's right to say this is Ubuntu's fault, because you didn't have your head on straight when you named your network.
          • kepone, on 11/19/2007, -0/+0Well no device that i own ever had a problem with the apostrophe... Until i put Linux on it.. My PS3, XB360, desktops, laptops, mobile phones, etc all had zero problems with special characters or punctuation marks. However, apparently, this is a critical network disabling flaw on linux.. Lets see.. change my wireless network, and have to redo settings on every other device in my house.. OR.. get rid of linux..

            I didn't realize that naming something " Jack's wireless network " ( for example ) could be such a critical issue for an OS.. I also did not realize that a simple apostrophe, is considered a " weird character" to a linux user..

            "Putting an apostrophe in your ssid is a terrible idea in the first place."

            If you're a linux user.. Windows and OSX never have had a problem with it.
        • cynicist, on 11/15/2007, -0/+2Putting an apostrophe in your ssid is a terrible idea in the first place.
      • SatNav, on 11/15/2007, -3/+8yes, the average human being (with half a brain, the ability to follow written instructions, and time to invest - thats the kicker) can do exactly those things. the problem is, the average user doesn't *want* to do those things. Which is understandable, most users are not computer enthusiasts (geeks), and want their computer to just work.

        But the fact remains, it is possible.
      • Amazetbm, on 11/15/2007, -5/+3Yeah, they can. To top it off, if the find WINE "too difficult" they can use CodeWeavers.
      • Tyr7BE, on 11/15/2007, -3/+11I used to watch DVDs with my Ubu installation all the time (before I got a modded Xbox and now use XBMC). And this is back in the original Ubuntu 5.04 or whatever the first version was (Warty Warthog?). What's stopping you from watching a DVD? I've been doing that on linux for YEARS.

        EDIT: Crap, this was supposed to be in reply to the uninformed original poster.
      • Derrekito, on 11/15/2007, -1/+5Well, can your average user install and setup windows? Working in the industry previously, and having to deal with many many people one on one with PCs, the answer I have come up with is: HELL NO. But then again, it could just be my luck.
        • MeneerR, on 11/15/2007, -1/+2You are right. But it's weird though. Installing windows is so ***** easy.
          The funniest part of it are those so called 'windows administrators'. As if everybody would just be driving a car without a lisence. Except the windows administrator. Some dumb ass guy actually proud of the fact he has mastered this pathetically easy task.

          But this analogy makes the linux administrator like a professional race driver and the guerrilla style administrators (those who can actually program as well, and hack up bash-scripts and perl to automate anything on the fly) are like James Bond.

          I consider windows administrators to be like the train personal. They check your ticket and need some training. But the work is easy and requires the iq of the average dog. Yet they still think that their opinion about linux matters.

          Without windows these types of idiots would be out of a job. The real experts refuse to do that work. Yet somebody has to install a firewall on granny's PC. In comes the Windows System Administrator. Hilarious. I think i finally found something good about windows. It gives dumb ass people a purpose in their life. A meaning. There exists work they can do.
      • mossblaser, on 11/16/2007, -0/+1The average linux user probably can (the large number of hard-core linux users off-sets the average considerably here). The average WINDOWS user cant change thier keyboard layout, let alone install and use WINE.
    • localzuk, on 11/15/2007, -2/+38'Running Photoshop' isn't doing something - editing images to the same level as photoshop would be though. Else they could just turn round and say 'I couldn't run $crappy windows program, I win, pay up sucker.
      • yagidem, on 11/15/2007, -3/+7Yeah, they will probably say "GIMP can do it". I was like that for years until I saw what Photoshop actually can do when used by professionals (ie no "gfx kiddies"). Especially the brushes are so awesome.
        • MeneerR, on 11/15/2007, -0/+7There you have it. Just because millions of people own Office 2007, Photoshop, etc. doesn't mean they use more of it than what MS Paint and Abiword offer by default.

          If i would get a penny for every idiot that thinks that without training he/she could actually be more productive with photoshop than a simpler tool I would be a millionaire.
    • TomFrost, on 11/15/2007, -6/+26How do things like "Run Photoshop" even apply? Photoshop is a windows program -- that's like saying Windows wins because it can run MS Paint natively and Linux can't, or Microsoft Solitaire. The key is to find Linux software that is comparable to what you once used on Windows, like The Gimp for example. The Gimp can handle everything Photoshop can, apart from CMYK. So if this guy doesn't do print design, The Gimp will cover all of his graphic editing needs.
      • emorphien, on 11/15/2007, -9/+8Photoshop is a major issue for some people. It runs in Windows and OSX, but there's nothing that comes close for free or the same money on Ubuntu.

        I'd definitely say that's one point lost to Ubuntu right there.
        • ucg1, on 11/15/2007, -1/+8Photoshop runs in WINE on Linux. Major issue solved.
        • MeneerR, on 11/15/2007, -0/+4He/she first has to prove that they on a regular (say at least once a year) basis use a specific functionality of photoshop that is not possible with any OSS tool. Now THAT changes the rules.

          99% of the functionality in photoshop isn't used by 99% of the users.
          Except the true professionals. All 10,000 world wide of 'em. Now what about the other 10+ million people that have this tool installed?
      • commyostrich, on 11/15/2007, -11/+8Actually, Adobe Photoshop is NOT a Windows program. If my memory serves me correctly, (and it does) Photoshop started as a Mac program way back in the day.

        And I thinking running Photoshop is a good point. As far as professional image editing/creating, The GIMP doesn't compare.
        • pt4117, on 11/15/2007, -1/+7It may have started out as a Mac program, but it is a Windows program too. I can show you my copy if you'd like.
      • yagidem, on 11/15/2007, -3/+7Ever tried advanced stuff with Brushes? GIMP sucks donkey balls compared to Photoshop when you actually look at what Photoshop can do. Sure, for the normal user it is more than enough (I use it all the time), but it is a fact that Photoshop is lightyears ahead once you try some professional stuff. Sad but true. :(
        • sambapati87, on 11/15/2007, -0/+2Define "advanced stuff with brushes" ?

          'Grunge' styles do not apply.
    • r00tus3r, on 11/15/2007, -7/+36Watch a DVD? How about no. I do that on linux all the time. BLUray and HD-Dvd support is also availabe. And the question should be , 'edit images', to which the answer would be GIMP.
    • gurellia53, on 11/15/2007, -1/+24If its a fault of linux that it can't run photoshop, then its a fault of windows that it can't run Linux software.
      • sanotaan, on 11/14/2007, -1/+3only true if there's linux software that he needs to run as part of his daily routine. fault of windows that it doesn't include bash, since its own command interpreter is ridiculous. in my opinion, it's a fault of linux that it can't run something as good as photoshop (i take real issue with gimp's usability as a lifelong photoshop user).
        • Derrekito, on 11/15/2007, -1/+7Windows cmd is *****. There I said it. Bury me.
        • chowmeined, on 11/15/2007, -1/+3But it isn't a fault of Linux that Photoshop can't run on it. The way software is designed is inherently platform specific. The reason it doesn't run on Linux is because Adobe hasn't bothered not because Linux is technically unable to.
        • Fatality, on 11/15/2007, -0/+2Cygwin.
      • Robbothehood, on 11/15/2007, -0/+0Hey, whatever, the stakes are a free laptop, these are the kind of freebies that I would try and argue.
    • Hermmunster, on 11/14/2007, -3/+4You can run Photoshop under Linux with emulation, which he's allowed to do. The normal person doesn't use their computer day in and day out to do Photoshop editing. It's an expensive package at that. It is used in many fields but only a small segment actually uses Photoshop day in and day out. So, the average normal person wouldn't consider it an issue. What they need to do with their photos gimp has enough power. For the most part for what people need to do with their photos, Picasa from Google does the job.

      DVDs can be played and you can actually purchase legal codecs for playing a DVD under Linux. No one said you can't pay for software under Linux if you wish to. Well, for the matter of blue ray or HD DVD, honestly, the vast majority of computers that come into my shop for repairs/upgrades don't have a Blue Ray nor HD DVD player. I'd be able to truthfully say that not a single computer has ever come into my shop with one of them.
    • mossblaser, on 11/16/2007, -0/+1A shocking number of home "users" of photoshop got it from a mate or just admit to torrenting it and use it to crop their photos. If you are competent enough to run photoshop (I have much respect for people who can use photoshop on a professional level) you are almost certainly competent (and patient) enough to make wine work. On the other hand, I made it work and it was unreliable and slow. I decided in the end that it was a choice between learning GIMP (or some other tool) and keeping all my other toys (KATE - the best trade off between usability and power as far as I have found with text editing, BASH and KDE/Gnome) or using windows. I chose linux. As you may have guessed however I am no professional graphic artist, not even an ammeter so I can afford to do this. Pros really shouldn't fix what aint broke.
  • geoken, on 11/15/2007, -7/+28Create a CS3 .fla file.
    • Derrekito, on 11/14/2007, -4/+1Does it actually have to work in CS3?
    • MacSuxWindozSux, on 11/15/2007, -9/+4Easy just open a text editor and save with a .fla extension.
      Bury my comment knowing that I'm right!
      • gcnaddict, on 11/15/2007, -0/+2That wouldn't save it as a CS3 .fla file. It needs to be readable by CS3 for it to count.
    • geoken, on 11/15/2007, -1/+2Yeah it probably has to work in CS3, I think it would be pretty hard for me to maintain my job if I was sending in plain text files with an .fla extension that threw up a 'unrecognized file' error when opened in it's native app.
  • Hipple, on 11/15/2007, -9/+27If I were going to get a new laptop anyway, I wish I could trick my friends into offering to pay for it. He has 30 days to find one thing, and he gets a free laptop. If he doesn't find it, he was going to buy a new laptop anyway. How is this a gamble?
    • logiktrip, on 11/15/2007, -0/+23"If on the other hand, I lose, I have to pay for his new laptop."

      Reading is fun.
    • spacebar14, on 11/14/2007, -0/+3Because then he has to buy it for his friend instead of himself?
    • SatNav, on 11/15/2007, -0/+2because if he wins, he doesnt have to pay for it? This seems pretty straightforward to me, but here:
      http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define%3Agamble
      • Robbothehood, on 11/15/2007, -0/+2Very snarky, but lacking in substance. He means there is no consequence to him losing the bet. Given the bet was never made, he would have had to pay for his laptop. Now, under the bet, he may get a laptop bought for him, and on the other hand it's like the bet never happened at all. It's not the Win:Lose situation as seen in other bets, it's a Win:Neutral, it would be foolish not to take a bet so bent in your favour.
    • XVampireX, on 11/14/2007, -0/+1Publish it, like this...
    • Yazilliclick, on 11/15/2007, -2/+1Well I didn't read further than like page 30 or something but think he was already declared the winner for the whole fiasco of trying to get the sound to work in Ubuntu.
  • ManM, on 11/15/2007, -7/+75I think he should surf the web using a usb connection to a Windows Mobile device with Internet Sharing, while watching his favorite TV channel on your ATI All-in-Wonder video card. Surely Ubuntu would have no trouble supporting that out of the box.

    Or, if that is too far out there, here is another one: Listen to music through his Yahoo Music Unlimited subscription.
    • localzuk, on 11/15/2007, -13/+9You are describing things that are designed for windows - not normal computing behaviour. Listening to music is doable, getting on the net is doable, watching tv is doable. Making it specific due to hardware incompatibilities due to manufacturers not supporting those items defeats the point. Else I could say 'I want my WinModem to work with linux' - I think the point of this is day to day usage and not looking at things that were never meant for linux, never supported by linux and never will be supported by linux...
      • Pardis, on 11/15/2007, -2/+8(quoting I think the point of this is day to day usage and not looking at things that were never meant for Linux, never supported by Linux and never will be supported by Linux) Localzuk that is the point, to beat windows it needs to do those things among others.
      • ManM, on 11/14/2007, -2/+6I suppose Gnometris is proof that Linux plays games too, just like Windows. Sure, both Windows and Linux can connect to the net. The devil is in the details. You are running Linux, and your cable modem drops out. You have no internet. I am running windows and my cable modem drops out. I tether my cellphone, and am back online. See the difference? Normal computing behavior or not, it is convenient to have the option.
        • Hermmunster, on 11/14/2007, -0/+1Normal behavior is part of the deal. The average person has a cell phone. The average person does not have broadband. There are still great numbers of people that use only dial-up in the US. In other countries it is much different. Even if your situation was typical where your cable box dropped on day for a couple of hours out of 6 months of use, I'd say the average person running Windows would NEVER use their cellphone to access the internet to play their game. So, not only is your example non-average it is extreme.

          Gaming was out of the equation for the bet. Even so, I enjoy many games under Linux that also have Windows versions such as the Unreal Tournament Series, The Quake series, games like Enemy Territory and Enemy Territory Quake Wars (which is a new title and was just released). Doom is another title that runs under Linux. Through emulation (cedega, crossover office, and Wine) you can play many windows games.

          I think all your points have been addressed and I think you can understand that there are things you can do under windows that you can't do under linux and vice versa. This is not a negative thing for either platform unless one is an important issue related to your privacy and your security. You can have a violation of your privacy and not be insecure. Microsoft Windows is an insecure platform that violates your privacy. You can add security to Windows with 3rd party programs but your privacy will still be violated by the very company that created Windows.

          As far as stock games go of the likes of gnometris there are actually hundreds of those types of games available for free under Linux. They are simple puzzle type games and games that challenge you but don't require you invest hours into playing to get anywhere. So, in reality those games you mention have a purpose. The average user doesn't play the high end games even on Windows. The reason is that 90% of all the computers that were being sold over the past few years were from the pre-fabs like (Dell, Gateway/eMachines, HP/Compaq, Sony, Acer, etc. These companies were not producing computers powerful enough. They were creating computers for desktop editing, chatting, internet browsing, etc. As a result a lot of those machines, probably the majority, didn't even have an AGP slot in order to put in a better card. So, it's not just that the average person doesn't play extensive games, they also didn't have the power in their computer to do if if they wished. I'm sure that is to the chagrin of the game developers. In the past year we have seen slight change in the hardware being produced but the average person that plays games plays card games, tetris-like games, puzzle games, etc. Linux has those in spades, pardon the pun.
          • EtherGnat, on 11/14/2007, -0/+1"Normal behavior is part of the deal. "

            True, but you seem to have confused this with *average* user behavior. The bet was that it had to something "Professor Fate" normally does. In a more general sense a great many of us have *something* we do that's outside of the "normal" computing experience, although what it is varies for each of us.
    • bdbr, on 11/15/2007, -1/+1...or legally watch shows on nbc.com or the BBC.
      • CarzorStelatis, on 11/18/2007, -0/+1The BBC site offers a choice between Windows Media and RealPlayer, the latter of which has a Linux version. Problem solved :)
  • 10001110101, on 11/15/2007, -3/+25Simple: buy any Lexmark PSC. Make it work.
    • Hermmunster, on 11/15/2007, -8/+3That's true but he could just as well buy any HP and have it work. So, the point is moot. He can print in Linux and print well. His intent isn't to violate the spirit of the bet. Since we know he can print he would not win even if he used a Lexmark printer.
      • daverave999, on 11/15/2007, -2/+5Reply to 10001110101: (No reply to 10001110101 button?)

        I didn't know whether that was a printer model or range or whatever so I googled it. Top link is: "can't get it to work in Vista". Made me chuckle!
  • blanktarget, on 11/15/2007, -18/+6You guys keep pointing out stuff he can do on windows instead of linux, who's side are you on?
    • Korbels, on 11/14/2007, -3/+5Well if it's Windows vs Ubuntu and your not siding with linux you pretty much answer your own question there.
    • Trax91, on 11/14/2007, -5/+2The hidden Microsoft's ninjas emerges from the shadows...
    • ManM, on 11/15/2007, -5/+27The side of honesty? Seriously, let's not pretend that Ubuntu is up to speed with Windows.
      • ucg1, on 11/15/2007, -7/+1Windows is not UNIX
      • RobotBuddha, on 11/14/2007, -1/+6I was with you until the implication that ubuntu is lesser all across the board compared to windows. I'd agree it is for a lot of things, but for a lot of others the position is reversed and linux comes out ahead of windows. Personally I think linux is far ahead in terms of user friendliness for programmers, program management, and 3D eye candy for desktop effects.
        • ManM, on 11/14/2007, -2/+1I'd agree with that. I do enjoy the Compiz-Fusion and Synaptic. I especially enjoy the ability to swap out window managers and desktop environments in a relatively painless fashion. Right now I'm running PCLOS with Compiz and Xfce. It handles the basics of computing better than Windows, which is why it is my primary OS. The problem comes when I want something more than the basics. Top notch gaming? Special hardware or peripherals? DRM? Professional software packages? That's when you want Windows.
        • killakan, on 11/15/2007, -3/+1"linux is far ahead in terms of user friendliness for programmers"

          Because 99% of computer users are programmers.

          /sarcasm
      • macoafi, on 11/15/2007, -0/+1Windows is not up to speed with Ubuntu. Ubuntu is certainly faster. Ask my Pentium II.

        Or, following what you meant (not what you said), to look at usability, ask my mom, my sister, or my brother. They agree that it's easier.
  • rudy23, on 11/15/2007, -9/+14yawn
    • MKdx, on 11/14/2007, -1/+2I am not saying both systems are on the same level, but it's a stupid challenge; because even if we reversed the positions, you could find stuff/software/hardware that can be done/used with Linux and not with Windows. This goes for all operation systems.
      • redmaxx, on 11/15/2007, -1/+1Name a tangible task that can be accomplished under Linux and not Windows.
        • MeneerR, on 11/15/2007, -0/+3- installing from a selection of 20,000+ free legal software packages using one easy interface for example. Although some guys are trying to port this type of repository support (win-get).
          - accessing jamendo, the free music repository, from within a music player
          - printing on a lexmark without the annoying lexmark interfaces that actually play sounds when you're done printing
          - putting stuff on an ipod without having to use itunes
          - playing dvd's from more than one region and copying their contents just by cut&paste (the decryption takes place on the driver level on linux. No need for special tools)
          - mounting a web-server (which mostly use ssh nowayds) as a folder on your desktop
          - right-click on a file and sent-to-directly to a msn/jabber/gtalk/aim user
          - have proper user-management for pc's that are available to many users that can't trust it other (like on a university), without having to lock everything completely down (that is: still allow them to access cd-roms, use proxies, install software from trusted repositories or on their own user-account)
          - using a 2nd harddrive for your my-documents folder _and_ your settings
          - manage all passwords (browsing, ssh, ftp, digg, gmail, msn, etc.) on a single keyring
          - sniff the wireless passwords of idiots neighbours using wep using a nice graphical tool
          - have more than one desktop/workspace
          - setup workspaces to automatically open specific programs (like having a full-screen firefox browser on your second monitor BY default when you start your computer)
          - zooming in on your desktop
          - save an embedded videoclip on a webpage by right-clicking it and choosing 'save'
          - use a tag-based internet browser (epiphany is only available for linux i'm afraid!)
          - login remotely to your computer using encryption
          - telling you of each file _not in your home directory_ how it got there, which package installed it
          - removing software completely without being dependent upon a working a uninstaller (because of the package manager)
          - use a free vector based modelling tool like inkscape which is only available on linux
          - buy music from magnatune directlry from within a media player
          - switch your desktop to a tiling style desktop instead of a window-based desktop
          - open up a fullscreen terminal on top of your desktop with a keypress
          - use a wiki based note-taking applet that sits on your desktop like tomboy
          - install a version of realmedia player that just plays realmedia files without installing annoying real music store crap and updater
          - edit a pdf file without having to pay or steal software
          - rip a last.fm stream and store the music on your pc as mp3's with the correct file-name
          - create a video dvd from avi's without buying or stealing software
          - install it on your ipod
          - install it on a PS3
          - update all installed software with ONE tool
          - administate hours worked for freelancer and automatically create an invoice wihout buying or stealing software
          - convert between audio and video formats using a free tool (they exist for windows, but your mom can't find them)
          - be garantueed no spyware can be installed when you put an audio-cd from sony into your computer
          - administrate personal finance without buying or stealing software
          - run it from a booteable usb stick
          - resize windows partitions without buying or stealing software
          - treat an iso like a file-archive without buying or stealing software
          - setup a thin-client without buying or stealing 3rd party software like citrux
          - log in as another user within an embedded window
          - change the looks of the login-screen
          - change the looks of the boot-screen
          - change the widget theme of all applications
          - have software installed in a sane menu per category, rather than per company, without doing it manually
          - mount a gmail account as a directory where you can save or copy files to and from
          - leave a note when the screen is locked
          - restart just the user-space (control+alt+backspace)
          - play an animation on your desktop background
          - have fish swimming in a cube that acts as your desktop background
          - translate any application on your desktop into your own local language
          - browse local pc's on your network and log in to them graphically
          - share music with local pc's on your network from within your music player

          I'm bored.. maybe i'll add some more later...
      • dimension128, on 11/18/2007, -0/+3I know this is old, but I had to.
        - Rename,move,delete,run a command on, or otherwise modify files based on a complex bash script that can also use the output from other programs to instruct it. Say for example, I want every song that is longer than 4mins to be encoded as a 128bit mp3. But any song shorter than 3 minutes not starting with a "G" will be encoded using flac, only if the current system time divided by the number on the end of the filename results in a primary number. etc. etc.
        - OWNING all of my software.
        - Change something about the OS, Xserver, Desktop manager, Window manager, without reverse engineering it and breaking laws.
        - Plug in a new printer and instantly print something, without having to setup anything.
        - Try out the latest bleeding edge software, and help the devs by submitting bug reports AND patches.
        - 1 computer, 2 monitors, 2 keyboards, 2 mice, 2 users at the same time.
        - Drop back to a terminal when everything GUI dies, and gracefully recover your system, without rebooting.
        - Completely change your window manager without buying or stealing software.
        - Play your favorite game WITHOUT a window manager or any other programs running at all.
        - Setup a locked down account for your small children, where they can do whatever you allow them to and nothing you don't want them to.
        - Give or restrict permission to use something simple, like the CD drive or a specific program, on a per user/group basis.
        - Have ALL of your software installed in such a way that the files are not modifiable whatsoever by users. Each user keeps their own copy of files that they require for customization. (no more, oops I think I just deleted an important system file)
        - Beat solitaire. Could never get it on windows.
        - Run debugging software (DEP).
        - Lose your need for such software, (you have the source)
        - Go to a forum and ask a question about your distro, and get answers. Or, call some place and pay for tech support even though your just joe consumer.
        - Still use old hardware. Even though the company that made the device doesn't support it anymore.
        - Move a window with Alt+Lmb without having to use the window title.
        - Resize a window without having to use the window boarder.
        - you can't symlink on Windows
        - Copy a group of files from within your fav file manager, and paste them into a text editor and have only the meta data (filename and path) pasted into the text editor - windows will either try to paste binary data into the text editor or tell you it can't do it.


  • myranttoyou, on 11/15/2007, -12/+48Here's one. Run thousands of historic and current commercial and home grown applications.
    • davidron, on 11/15/2007, -8/+12Like Amarok, Kontact, Evolution... oh wait... How about iMovie or iCal or Garage Band? Nope. Every Operating System has platform specific applications. We're talking about actually getting work done - something Linux users do all the time using thousands of historic and current commercial and home grown applications.
      • killakan, on 11/15/2007, -12/+3Oooh, you named six applications. I bet if I tried REALLY hard I could get three of them to run under CygWin and the other three are not available for Linux
        Now, lets look at what you listed:
        Amarok - a media player. Last I checked there was Windows MediaPlayer and about a thousand other media players available for windows
        Kontact - an Outlook clone
        Evolution - an Outlook clone
        iMovie (which is not available for Linux) - Windows Movie Maker, Photoshop Elements.
        iCal (which is not available for Linux) - Windows Calendar (In vista), Outlook Express, Sunbird
        Garage Band (which is not available for Linux) - Audacity, N-Track, Acid Music Studio.

        Your argument is weak.
        • MeneerR, on 11/15/2007, -1/+3No his examples are. His argument was quite strong. There is more hobbyist homegrown stuff for linux than for any other OS.
          There is more shareware for windows though. Usually becasue that kind of software is just free to begin with on linux.
          • killakan, on 11/15/2007, -1/+2most of the hobbyist homegrown stuff is crap. the vast majority of FLOSS is crap. And, it is unfinished crap at that.
          • MeneerR, on 11/15/2007, -0/+1unlike 99% of all that windows software? Come on 99% of windows software is crappy shareware. The OSS equivalents are never more crappy or more expensive than this type of software.

            But I agree, most of its crap. But it's OSS crap is at least free, unlike the shareware and spyware junk you window users have to search through to find some decent app.
    • Hermmunster, on 11/15/2007, -0/+2There are plenty of Linux equivalents to those homegrown programs. That's part of the agreement. He can find equivalents to them.
    • computerfreedom, on 11/15/2007, -2/+4Here's two: emulation and virtualization.
    • init100, on 11/15/2007, -0/+7One thing many people don't understand is that by stringing together commands in e.g. Bash you can accomplish many things that requires a specialized application in Windows. Pipes are incredibly powerful.
      • fr34k5h0w, on 11/15/2007, -1/+2Like PowerShell available for XP, 2003, Vista, and is native in 2008? PowerShell is, I have to admit, pretty amazing. The object oriented nature is almost better than bash | commands.
        • init100, on 11/15/2007, -0/+1"The object oriented nature is almost better than bash | commands"

          That's debatable.
          • MeneerR, on 11/15/2007, -0/+1It's less usefull not just because of the shell (powershell is quite nice), but because most of the windows infrastructure is based on DLL's, whereas large parts of the linux-infrastructure are command-line tools. They might have a graphical shell around them, but they are at least also available when in the shell. This is much less true for windows.

            Maybe when they make powershell the default, things will change though.
  • cathars1s, on 11/15/2007, -11/+67iTunes store, Dreamweaver, photoshop, speech recognition?
    • kevintest, on 11/15/2007, -1/+6Actually, I think the challenge there would be a more generic form of the tasks, i.e., purchase music online, use a WYSIWYG HTML editor, edit graphics, use a speech recognition program. The speech recognition would be the most challenging, but there are resources:
      http://www.linux.com/base/ldp/howto/Speech-Recogni ...
      • chugger1992, on 11/15/2007, -0/+1dreamweaver is more than just WYSIWYG
        • macoafi, on 11/15/2007, -0/+1What else does it do? Last I checked, it didn't even have proper CSS support like Kompozer has.
          • MeneerR, on 11/15/2007, -0/+1Dreamweaver is crap anyway. Either hire a professional, or learn to create websites using notepad. Name one serious website created in dreamweaver besides mom's 40-year old birthday picture site. (she should be using flick, or picasa web-albums for stuff like that). So what silly amateur needs Dreamweaver?
    • bumblefoot, on 11/15/2007, -9/+3photoshop meet wine, wine meet photoshop
    • ahac, on 11/15/2007, -1/+7We are not talking about programs here but things you can do.
      iTunes: buy music.
      Dreamweaver: make webpages
      Photoshop: make pictures
      ...
      you can do all those things (unless he really needs a specific function from those programs).
      And speech recognition? If that is the best thing you can come up with then Linux must be ready for 99% of the destrops out there.
      • BryanJK, on 11/15/2007, -2/+2His point is those programs are better quality than many off the apps on linux, such as photoshop doesn't even compare to GIMP
        • daverave999, on 11/15/2007, -0/+3The apps on Linux are NOT commercial products in the main though. It's amazing that Linux software has gotten this good without profit to drive development. You are judging the OS by the software which is available, which is understandable but unfair.
        • macoafi, on 11/15/2007, -0/+2My preference in order:
          1. Corel Paint Shop Pro (assuming it hasn't gone to ***** since it was Jasc paint Shop Pro 8....it's now on v 11 under Corel's ownership....if it has, then I want Jasc PSP8)
          2. The GIMP
          3. Photoshop

          Photoshop's UI is omgwtf-confusing. The GIMP's is sensible. PSP has nice little touches that just make it awesome.
      • cathars1s, on 11/15/2007, -2/+1There is nothing even CLOSE to Dreamweaver on Linux.
        • MeneerR, on 11/15/2007, -1/+1Because nobody should be using that. If you can't make a webpage, use a free bloggin tool, or a web-album.
          If you want to create a website. Notepad is that powertool that professionals use.

          Dreamweaver is for 14 year old kids that think they know how to create a website. Don't make us laugh, you silly amateur.
          Websites get designed by professionals using photoshop and css.
          Websites get programmed by programmers using a server-side programming language.

          Dreamweaver has no place. It serves no purpose. It should not exist. Does not compute.
    • Hermmunster, on 11/15/2007, -1/+2I've seen people using iTunes under Linux via emulation. Photoshop can be run under Linux via emulation. There are many online music store sites that though don't operate exactly like iTunes music stores, they still will sell you music that you can play in Linux. There has always been alternatives to Dreamweaver under Linux and under Windows, so pointing it out is completely off the mark. The average normal person doesn't use Photoshop (it is very expensive) and they don't use speech recognition, though it is available under Linux, and for goodness sake the average day to day use doesn't include making web pages.
      • redmaxx, on 11/15/2007, -0/+1I tried iTunes under Linux and it was crap. It always gave warnings on start up, it was slower and the interface looked awful.

        Does iPod syncing work under Linux?
        • macoafi, on 11/15/2007, -0/+1Yes, Banshee, Exaile, Rhythmbox, and Amarok can all do iPod syncing. I'm sure there are more music programs that can do it, but there's also standalones like GTKPod
    • daftman, on 11/15/2007, -2/+3No need for iTunes store. emusic and other online DRM-free music allow purchases from the net. Amarok comes with Magnatune integrated. Dreamweaver and photoshop can be run through wine, even though they aren't support in Linux. Try running Amarok or Compiz in windows?
      Again, too specific requirements. It's as dumb as asking "Can your PS3 play my XBox360 games."
      NEXT!!
      • MeneerR, on 11/15/2007, -0/+2Buy Music? For those who ask money. Why not just listen to open-source music? www.jamendo.org
        More than 30,000 songs last time I checked. All free, legal, CC-liscenced music.

        Who the ***** needs iTunes? Seriously? Why in gods-name?
        • redmaxx, on 11/15/2007, -2/+130k songs? You've got to be joking.
          • MeneerR, on 11/15/2007, -0/+25661 published albums

            so, thats an average of say 6 songs per album. Why not visit the website.
    • secleinteer, on 11/15/2007, -1/+2iTunes store - torrents
      Dreamweaver - vi (why exactly do you need a WYSIWYG editor?)
      Photoshop - GIMP
      Speech recognition - http://sourceforge.net/projects/ossrp/
    • eFiniTi, on 11/15/2007, -1/+1Have a graphical bandwidth limiter (like NetLimiter for Windows)
  • LordSkywalker, on 11/15/2007, -5/+38Win the bet easily. Try sticking in a random Wifi USB card and see if you can get on the net within a few minutes, like you can on Windows. Or better yet, complain that you tried to get a BSoD, but just can't seem to do so.
    • Beatmiser, on 11/15/2007, -8/+18Exactly the reason I gave up on Ubuntu. MaxG Wireless USB adapter...
      "Just download NDISWrapper and configure the network information via command line"
      "But I can't connect to download it..."
      "Right but it will be easy to..."
      "Just eat a bag of dicks." /reinstall XP Pro
      • Matt2k, on 11/14/2007, -0/+1Same boat. But doesn't your laptop come with a hard-wired LAN port??
        • NJank, on 11/15/2007, -1/+11he's sitting in Starbucks. They won't give him access to the route