Digg

Discover and share the best of the web!
Learn more about Digg by taking the tour.

Microsoft Reveals Dynamic Language Runtime for .NET

arstechnica.com — Microsoft has unveiled a new Dynamic Language Runtime (DLR) layer for the .NET development platform. Designed to simplify the process of bringing support for additional dynamic languages to .NET, the Dynamic Language Runtime is largely based on lessons learned from developing IronPython, an implementation of the Python

Bury

gmark13 1 year 164 days ago, made popular 1 year 164 days ago

581 diggs
digg it

EdgarVerona, on 10/12/2007, -67/+7I'll give a digg for the only good thing to come out of Microsoft this century... though they did steal the .NET's core framework concepts from Java. but I digress, dugg anyways because it's useful. ;)
- fluoro, on 10/12/2007, -3/+66And Java "stole" things from previous languages and runtimes. Who cares? Computer languages and frameworks always inherit the good features from their predecessors and cull out the things that didn't work so well. This wasn't the first time it's happened and it won't be the last.
- jav1231, on 10/12/2007, -24/+6.What? Wait, .Net is the best thing to come out of Microsoft in awhile?
- AJH16, on 10/12/2007, -0/+22@edgarverona
  
  .Net and Java are similar only in that both take a set of commands and reduce them to a more simple set of commands. This is the basis of every programming language ever. Yes, both Java and .Net use virtualized environments, but that is where the similarity ends. Virtualized environments weren't new with Java and the architecture is completely different, (and in my book much better for not being based off a stack architecture).
- willistg, on 10/12/2007, -5/+35you're an idiot, the .net framework's roots are in the VCL which is in Delphi which Anders wrote and now author of C#. the VCL existed long before java was even thought of.
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_Component_Library
  
  I like dynamic languages, I have to use .net for getting paid, I like this announcement so digg.
- burty89, on 10/12/2007, -9/+3@willistg: .net isn't based on the VCL because the 2 are completely different... .net is a runtime/framework for applications, where the VCL is a set of classes used to write GUIs...
  
  If you'd argued that .net was based on Delphi (there are definitely some things inherited from it), or that .nets System.Windows.Forms namespace was based on the VCL you might have made enough sense for me not to click that little red button above your comment...
- stupidStan, on 10/12/2007, -7/+11"I'll give a digg for the only good thing to come out of Microsoft this century... though they did steal the .NET's core framework concepts from Java. but I digress, dugg anyways because it's useful. ;) "
  
  Most likely written on a computer running windows - possibly in an IE browser.
  
  Microsoft has came out with nothing good in the past 100 years. Not the most popular OS ever, not VB, not one of the most use frameworks and surely not arguably the best server-side language ever (asp.net)... nope.
- willistg, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7@burty89
  
  OMG not the little red button!!!!! please NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO You sir have ruined my day.
  
  Clearly you know very little about the VCL.
- deabyss, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13@StupidStan
  
  Written like someone who is either 12 or has never even touched the .NET language. Are you even a programmer? Do you have any actual criticism of the language, or are you just bashing MS because it is the fun thing to do and a quick way to get to 100+ diggs?
  
  .NET is the latest progression in programming language. It has taken what Java learned from Small Talk which learned from C++ which learned from C which learned from Pascal which learned from a long chain of other languages. The impact of .NET is (in its current phase) very profound in the enterprise. Everything from CRM systems to Accounting systems now use some form of .NET which allow large enterprises to create connected systems in a very short period of time. It was not designed for hobbyists.
- vagarach, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2The complete self importance demonstrated by the topmost post is getting way too common on digg, I mean really, chill a bit, and keep why you think this article is worthy of your all-important-digg-from-the-heavens to yourself sometimes.
- stupidStan, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9@deabyss
  
  I was mocking the OP... I am a .net programmer, I have my MCDP and MCTS... you need to calm down and read comments before you bash them. I was lobbying for .net.
  
  Check out this article, then my post might make more sense:
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm
  
  oh yeah, and get your panties out of you @$$ while your at it
- HarryHunt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6C# is indeed heavily inspired by Java just like Java is heavily inspired by C++/Objective C which is heavily inspired by Smalltalk which is heavily inspired by Lisp... all programming languages stand on the shoulders of giants.
  
  Java and C# actually borrow quite a bit from each other and recently Java has borrowed a bit more from C# like...
  - Generics
  - Enumerations
  - Autoboxing
  - Foreach (despite it not using the same keyword)
  - Varargs
  - Annotations
  
  however, you can't really say that anybody's stealing from anybody here because all of these concepts have existed long before Java or C#.
- MashedPotatoman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The CLR is much much more closely related to the JVM than VCL. To deny that is just plain nonsensical. The C# language was 95% indentical to Java. Most of the original .NET libraries were limited copies of the Java libraries. This is totally obvious if you have ever seen code in Java and C#
  
  That is not to say that is a bad thing. But it is ludicrous to deny it. C# added some good features (autoboxing, generics, annotations) which Java then copied (in some cases poorly). Some C# features were a definite step backwards (struct types, pass by ref).
  
  C# is now diverging from Java in a big big way with the addition of Linq. The big debate in Java land is whether to add closures.
  
  The problem with .NET is the fact it is not open, and not truly cross platform. Mono is way behind .NET on Windows and there is the ever present chance of Microsoft getting stupid (Mono is supported by Novell after all). There are two (fairly crappy) open source Java projects, 3 commerical JVMs, and Sun will be open sourcing all of Java under the GPL.
- EdgarVerona, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Wow, seems that I've been unduly hated upon. What's with people on Digg anyways?
  
  @fluroro & willistig
  
  I was merely pointing out that the concepts that make .NET a great development environment were not completely new ideas. What's the problem with that? I suppose some people have enough free time to sit on digg and flame people all day. Personally, I have a job.
  
  @StupidStan
  
  Unfortunately for you, you couldn't be more wrong. I use Firefox at home. Admittedly, I'm on a Win machine running IE right now because I'm not at my computer... but I think we all run into situations where we have to use someone else's system. And it'd be rather rude of me to take it upon myself to change thier OS or install a new application because it fits my fancy. Also, I wasn't speaking of that past 100 years, merely this century (~6 years now, if you consider that the century begins in 2001).
  
  I disagree with you that MS hasn't made anything good in the past 100 years (though they've not been in business nearly that long). I make my living programming for Windows, along with a lot of people... and though it might not be ideal, nothing really is. .NET was a fantastic improvement over unmanaged C/Win32 API, which is what I had to do before then.
  
  @vagarach
  
  Your comment is a fantastic example of someone not understanding the notion of a "digg", nor a "comment". Generally when people make a "comment", it is in reference to how they feel about a topic. And indeed, a Digg expresses an individual person's notion of why an article is worthy, for whatever reasons they hold it to be.
  
  Or is there some universal standard that we must hold everything to? Perhaps you'd rather that we all silence personal opinion on Digg? I don't think there'd be many (if any) comments at that point, and digging would be worthless. And who would make up that standard?
  
  To me, a digg and a comment are both expressions of personal interest in a story and an explanation of why it was found interesting. If you feel I'm wrong about that, perhaps you could give some intelligent explanation as to what you consider them to be. I'm all ears.
- willistg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@MashedPotatoman
  
  What does a virtual machine have in common with a Object framework? I'll answer that for you ....NOTHING. Compating the CLR to VCL is just plain ignorant. Did you even program before java came along?
Snowy, on 10/12/2007, -18/+1Wow didn't Java do this with their latest release.
- Homunculiheaded, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12One of the major components of DLR (from reading the article) is dynamic typing. Static typing is fundamental to the Java lanuage so I can't imagine that they would suddenly change that.
fluoro, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14I'm interested to see if we can get a big performance improvement for Rails by running it on a .NET DLR based Ruby runtime.
- Humptydank, on 10/12/2007, -7/+1sorry, digg down
dantana1776, on 10/12/2007, -45/+3ASP.crap! I'm sticking with PHP
- MioTheGreat, on 10/12/2007, -2/+32Spoken like someone who has never actually written anything using ASP.NET.
- kinghajj, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10PHP .crap! I'm sticking with Django/Python
- Jeifurie, on 10/12/2007, -27/+2@ Mio
  
  Spoken like someone who hasn't actually written anything using PHP. PHP is inherently better.
- MioTheGreat, on 10/12/2007, -2/+34No. I've used both. I much prefer ASP.NET.
  
  Having the entire CLR at my disposal.
  I can work with images and XML much easier than I can with PHP. (See above.)
  Simple, easy to use, yet powerful, Databinding.
  Coding in C#, as if I was writing a Desktop app.
  Better seperation of code from markup.
  Being able to attach the Visual Studio debugger.
- ScottMaximus1, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6I prefer ASP.NET, but you usually have to pay a premium to get a Windows Server Hosting Environment
- ABadInAlbany, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11@Scott: Not really. That was certainly true a couple years ago, but look at someplace like GoDaddy -- there's what, a $2 difference per month to host in Windows vs. Linux? And their Windows accounts ALSO support PHP? $2 is nothing.
- Yazilliclick, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13I've also coded in both PHP and ASP.NET (C# mostly) and must say that c# is by far my preference.
  
  PHP is far from being a bad choice but C#, from my experience at least, is a much cleaner, well organized and documented solution that developing in it is a much more sane experience. Add that these days .NET tends to be much better to have on your resume than PHP, that you can use the same language for web apps and desktop apps instead of learning two seperate ones, that some of the best IDEs around were made for the languages etc... and it's just a pleasure to work with.
  
  PHP will always be around though, however I feel it tends to fall somewhat, but not to the degree of some other things, into the elitist free/open source attitude that anything else just sucks. Many of the arguments I've had about languages or technologies such as PHP vs ASP.NET have ended up pretty much being the point that ASP.NET is from 'M$' so it sucks, PHP rules! Personally I prefer to look at the merits of each side instead.
- fuzzmeister, on 10/12/2007, -9/+2I code in PHP because I'd rather code and run my site on free software than spend $500 on Visual Studio and XP Pro (which is required for ASP .net on Visual Studio). I should probably code in Ruby though.
- Comatose51, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3Having code in PHP, C# (ASP.Net), and Ruby I have to say Ruby is light years ahead of both. C# is definitely more modern than PHP. PHP retains a lot of C feel and is really not that object oriented. Ruby takes OO to the limits with even the class definitions themselves being objects. Since you need classes to create an object and classes are objects, Ruby is powered by a paradox! In either case, Ruby rocks. Python look very similar to Ruby and I will probably learn it next, given I like the .Net framework and love languages like Ruby and its relatives such as Python.
- MioTheGreat, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12"I code in PHP because I'd rather code and run my site on free software than spend $500 on Visual Studio and XP Pro (which is required for ASP .net on Visual Studio)"
  
  You're wrong.
  
  Visual Studio Web Developer Express. It's free, and can run ASP.NET sites straight from Visual Studio.
- grumpyrain, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1> I prefer ASP.NET, but you usually have to pay a premium to get a Windows Server Hosting Environment
  
  In the scheme of things, the premium is usually less than other development costs incurred when you don't have the debugger or access to other .NET libraries. That said, mod mono lets you run it under Apache on whatever.
- fuzzmeister, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@MioTheGreat
  I apologize then. Last time I tried to start up the ASP part of Visual Studio at school, it told me that it required XP Pro. And, I didn't know that there was a free version, so I pretty much just got served.
- fluoro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"I code in PHP because I'd rather code and run my site on free software than spend $500 on Visual Studio and XP Pro (which is required for ASP .net on Visual Studio). I should probably code in Ruby though."
  
  So why not give Mono a try? It kind of seems like the best of both worlds: it's free and open source software, runs on Windows or Linux or Mac, and lets you use C# and ASP.NET. I'm not trying to start a C# vs PHP thing here, just responding since you seem to imply that the reason you chose PHP over C#/.NET is simply because of price or open sourcedness.
- plenderj, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2A loosely-typed interpreted scripting language versus a strongly-typed natively-compiled programming platform? ASP.NET FTW.
DieselDaddy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+19.net is a very nice framework to program against. For those that may be new to it, check out some of the articles on CodeProject (http://www.codeproject.com/) or browse a bunch of open source applications on CodePlex (http://www.codeplex.com/).
nyabutid, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9It is all about the Virtual Machine. Java does have support for this kind of stuff with JRuby, Groovy and hundreds of others but seeing that MS is moving in that direction adds reason to Develop apps in the Dynamic Space.
EarthAndStars, on 10/12/2007, -2/+29.net is the real deal. Even the open source guys are following suit with mono: http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page

When Ballmer went nuts screaming "Developers, developers developers..." he meant it, and MS came through with a great product. Go on career builder and type .net jobs versus PHP jobs and see the number of jobs and the pay...

Before anyone buries me, I use Ubuntu and XP at home, and a Mac at work. They all have their uses and I give credit where credit is due.
- kinghajj, on 10/12/2007, -13/+4.NET is a great platform... for C#. There's not much use in Python on .NET, unless you want to script your .NET apps.
- markab, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2"When Ballmer went nuts screaming "Developers, developers developers..." he meant it, and MS came through with a great product. Go on career builder and type .net jobs versus PHP jobs and see the number of jobs and the pay..."
  
  I think that these decisions are usually made on the core competencies of the development team. I would rather be a specialist in a field than a drone in a sea of Indian Outsourced jobs. I've managed to stay on fringe technologies thus far in my career, first Java (which is hardly fringe now) and now Ruby on Rails, and it's treated me VERY well from a financial perspective. I've never once worried about the # of jobs on Monster for my skillsets, and I've never had a problem finding a job.
  
  If .NET is your passion, and you love what you do, you'll do fine, lots of jobs and a lot of job competition.
  If PHP is your passion, you'll do great. There is obviously need for these developers, I run into shops all the time that have 4-5 in house PHP guys.
  If Ruby on Rails rubs your rooster, then you shouldn't have a problem finding a job.
  
  We have a 3 person development team, myself and 2 other folks. We build a LOT of internal software for our company, java has suited us well.. but we can churn out apps a lot faster on Rails and have done all our new development for the last year in Rails. (2 major projects now), and have only been happy with the decision.
  
  If someone tried to force .NET down our pants it would be a complete ***** disaster because not one of us really enjoys programming on MS platforms, nor do we have practical experience with it beyond a few projects that have forced us to use the software and some heavy-client programming one of the guys has done with C#.
  
  Just because balmer was screaming like a baboon 'it's about the developer', doesn't mean he's talking about you. He sure as ***** wasn't talking about me.
- fluoro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4".NET is a great platform... for C#. There's not much use in Python on .NET, unless you want to script your .NET apps."
  
  Uhh.. sorry, but that's about as wrong as you can get. .NET is in no way tied to C#, and Python as a language has nothing inherently to do with scripting any more than C# does. Python has developed the reputation of being fantastic for scripting, but that doesn't mean it can't be used for application development. IronPython exists today and already matches or beats CPython in many areas of performance. It generates CLR code that runs with C# or any other .NET language. The whole point of the CLR is that you can write something in one CLR-friendly language, and use it in another. Write some widgets in C# and use them from C#, or use them from IronPython, or use them from the hot new .NET DLR based Ruby once it's available. So maybe Python and Ruby have the reputations of being scripting languages, but once they're running inside the CLR they're likely to be in the same performance ballpark as C#.
  
  Of course, I have no idea how fast this new .NET dynamic language runtime compares in performance to the existing .NET runtimes. THAT might make it slower, but that's still a different issue. You're implying that Python, as a language, is only good for scripting and that simply isn't true. Maybe it's true for the main implementation of it, I don't know.. but I sort of doubt that as well.
- kinghajj, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@fluoro
  
  I didn't mean to imply that Python is only good for scripting. I LOVE Python, and know of its many uses. And yes, IronPython can be used for full app devel, but mostly it won't. C# is the 'lingua franca' of .NET.
  
  What I really meant was that Python could be a good way to let end-users script their apps; Python is an easy language, and would be well-suited for that purpose, I think.
dvdcr, on 10/12/2007, -12/+1http://digg.com/apple/Hack_a_Mac_Contest_Winner_Vista_More_Secure_than_Mac_OS
grandpajesus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+23This is cool.
MS doesn't always make ***** products you bunch of haters
astrotrain, on 10/12/2007, -24/+2Sounds too much like DRM.... And another 'jailing' programing language presented by Microsoft to keep your data hostage.
- ABadInAlbany, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14Are you retarded ... or just dumb?
- Darcy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12I suppose DLR does sound like DRM, if you're really really dumb.
Informativo, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1Quite a few guitarists prefer to have the whammy at the top; because it's easier to use that way.
thestud, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Thief! stop feeding the beast!! Attica! Attica!
tsbardella, on 10/12/2007, -6/+609 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
deabyss, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@StupidStan

Sorry about that man, but finding sarcasm in this pool of comments isn't easy. Looks like my sarcasm detector was broken today. My problem was I didn't read what you quoted since I had already read it a couple comments up, so it was taken out of context. My apologies!
probinu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I have been coding in many languages throughout my career, Comparing .NET to PHP is crazy. Ruby on Rails has some teeth but it still makes me nervous when I think about the scalability. It is too close to the scripting language it began as.
- jonnyq, on 10/12/2007, -6/+0I wouldn't touch .NET because I don't want the language to write my HTML for me and everything I've seen regarding .NET for the web has implied that I use its visual designer for my web pages. I don't want that.
  
  Just because PHP is ugly doesn't mean your PHP code has to be ugly. If you understand PHP and use object-oriented features in PHP5, you can write code that's just as pretty as .NET code, and just as functional.
  
  I wouldn't consider Ruby in this category.
  
  I would consider Java servlets in this category. I haven't used it, but it does seem like a great way to work - doesn't tie you to a visual design, but it does have the coding features of .NET
- MashedPotatoman, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0Plain Java servlets suck. If simple is what you are looking for Spring MVC + Velocity templates is the way to go IMO. I presume there is some servlet equivalent in .NET though.
- fluoro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Your concerns might be simply the Ruby runtime and interpreter, which are admittedly very slow. This is why it will be very interesting to see how it compares to a Ruby that compiles to this new .NET DLR instead of using the normal Ruby interpreter. Rails may suddenly become even more wickedly awesome! :)
- probinu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I agree, and I am beginning to write Ruby with a visual studio plug-in. Best of both worlds? Remains to be seen.
mikeylopez, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2I wonder if it has support for
RAND(09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0)
nephilimx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Cant wait for the full version of Orca
- PonyGumbo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1No kidding. I haven't downloaded the RC, but I've been following it on ScottGu's blog.
Login or register to add a comment

Create a new account or login to join in the conversation on Digg. You'll also be able to Digg stories to help promote things you like.

Microsoft Reveals Dynamic Language Runtime for .NET

Login or register to add a comment