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Hip Hop Isn't Dying, It Just Sucks

theseminal.com — Hip hop sales are down. But why? Countless articles have said the problems with hip hop stem solely from its content. Not true. Hip hop first and foremost is a musical art-form. Right now, hip hop just isn ’t living up to musical standards. It’s just plain bad.

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  • mrkakka, on 10/12/2007, -6/+72I blame Puff Daddy
    • mdnash, on 10/12/2007, -1/+46i think hes just Diddy now.
    • mrkakka, on 10/14/2007, -13/+122He'll always be P. Shiddy to me
    • quomen, on 10/12/2007, -19/+5I liked him and his productions back in the day.. The problem is everyone turned pop, and that's where hiphop dies.
    • tehkain, on 10/12/2007, -32/+2Yea I personally can't stand his music. Thanks to The Game for being a decent artist or I would have written off all new hip hop as being lame.
    • UO07, on 10/12/2007, -5/+34I blame all the new artists who have no talent. Like that one guy "MIMS" or whatever. His song is on the top10 song list on itunes but its honestly one of the worst rap songs I've ever heard.

      Lyrics go something like "Im hot cuz I'm fly, your ain't cuz your not" ...Wow thats deep! Not.

      I'll stick to rock, thanks.
    • TimeTravelerX, on 10/12/2007, -10/+3Not really P.Diddy, 50 cent is the problem.

      Forget the commercial stuff, theres only so much gangster rap you can make before it becomes tired. We don't need any more gangster rappers.

      What we need is rap that tells stories and shares real perspectives, and that gangster *****, is not a realistic perspective. The perspective of a convict is a perspective few will relate to first of all, second of all, it's unrealistic. Most real gangsters never decide to make it cool, those are the fakes who think it's cool.

      A gangster is a street soldier.
    • WallyAnti, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2Yeah, Puff Diddy doo daah or whatever ghey name he goes by these days puts out nothing but horrid crap. Here's a good way to tell if music sucks. If it's on the radio and it isn't over 10 years old and not from an established artist it almost invariably sucks. That "I'm hot cuz I'm fly" song is an abomination and anyone who likes it is just plain "ignant". Oh, and if you want to hear some really, I mean really bad rap you should look up DJ Screwed. It's a whole genre based on drinking promethazine(cough syrup). Now there are some really excellent artists out there but what is popular right now is just stupid.
    • senfo, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2@TimeTravelerX, you're seriously retarded. Hip Hop is about the culture that rappers grew up in; not the sheltered life that you obviously come from. 50 Cent was big when he first came out because he brought back the inner city reality. As soon as he went pop, his record sales dropped. I don't know what they're teaching you kids out in the suburbs these days, but you're completely clueless.
    • rune420, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3@senfo

      Are you serious!? 50 Cent didn't sell much of anything before he went mainstream and dropped "In Da Club". And his first commercial album sold more than most Elvis records.
    • ostracize, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6"Yall want me to open the studio again, yall gonna have to walk down to the Bronx and get me breastmilk from a Cambodian immigrant."
    • ratbear, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Most of the comments in this thread denouncing hip hop as an art form are coming from ignorant fools whose only exposure to the genre is from commercial sources (radio, MTV, BET, etc...). Of course the commercial stuff is going to suck, that is true for most genres.

    • Diggs, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4R.I.P. BIG L

      people seem to NEVER give this dude any shout outs....
    • senfo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@rune420, I don't think you understood what I was saying because you just reiterated exactly what I said.
  • icuevas, on 10/12/2007, -8/+7Good read. i miss real hip hop.
    • supamii, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0it would seem that hip-hop is not popular in this digg thread. I'm ok with that. But I gotta tell you, as J-Live said from "the best part epilogue," REAL HIP HOP is "not the first song made, but the first song that MADE YOU." I'm big on bossa nova, jazz, and my (underground) hip-hop. And to me, hip-hop is real.
  • orientis, on 10/12/2007, -9/+5750 Cent is a *****.

    Check out Sage Francis, Eyedea and Abilities, Clouddead, Penpushers etc etc for good American hiphop. It's not dead, it just got smarter.

    Aussie hiphop ***** rules. Hilltop Hoodz, Butterfingers etc. We don't take it as seriously.
    • Margh, on 10/12/2007, -7/+15Don't forget J5!
      For another good Aussie hiphop band check out Two Up.

      Edit: Don't forget the OLD Jurassic 5, when they still had Cut Chemist.
    • Xeiliex, on 10/12/2007, -3/+23How could you forget the roots?

    • cordata, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1Aussie Hip-Hop Rules

      Amen brother
    • nestafett, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6J5 is mainstream now i.e..duet with dave matthews, also dont forget mf doom (viktor vaughn) paul barman, 2mex, immortal techniques, handsome boy modeling school, del, blackalicious, soul position, etc...
    • zuus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Bloody oath, Aussie Hip-Hop is great.

      Speaking of which also love TZU, The Herd, Urthboy and Downsyde. Worth checking out.
      As for good American Hip-Hop, don't forget old school Aesop Rock. Some fascinating poetry right there.
    • cdawzrd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+17Jedi Mind Tricks?
    • Caliente, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1word up for aussie hip hop.

      +1 for Lyrical Commission/Matty B/Hilltops/nfa/1200 techniques/downsyde and of course Delta.
    • android32, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7There's still good hip-hop, it's the fact that morons constantly listen to popular ***** and crunk (the worst ***** I've ever heard in my life) and that rubs off the other mainstream idiots who think all rap is what the radio or 16 year old kids listen to. There's always been good alternatives in hip-hop and I can name a bunch of them: A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul, KRS 1, the Jungle Brothers, Public Enemy... and if you want more recent stuff, there's Jurassic 5, Immortal Technique, Sage Francis, MC Lars, Atmosphere, Saul Williams, Del the Funkee Homosapien, Dead Prez, I could go on and on...

      It's kind of like punk rock. The people who are actually into punk and the people who are actually into hip-hop have completely differing opinions when it comes to the mainstream opinion of what punk or hip-hop is. The mainstream thinks punk is AFI and Green Day, just like they think hip-hop is Young Joc, Lil Wayne, 50 Cent... whereas anyone who's actually into the ***** and contributes to it sees those people as complete and utter fakes.
    • coztopia, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Aussie hip-hop is overblown.

      they all rap about how Aussie and awesome and not-american they are.
      and what is with the freaking Aussie Hip-Hop Accent? why do they all sound like the same bloke?

      heard one, heard em all.
      and considering every second song on JJJ is aussie hip hop, you hear it a lot.
    • polyGone, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5RJD2?

      Blackalicious?
    • moosebaloney, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1I'm sick of these Twin City boys... honestly, Eyedea, Abilities, Slug, etc is nothing more than Emo Hip-hop. If i want to hear people whining about emotions I'll pick up the latest Death Cab for Cutie. The poetry is much more advanced than anything Sage Francis can blather over.
    • DarthTurducken, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I love "List of Demands" by Saul Williams

      www.myspace.com/saulwilliams
    • okcomputer1982, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Dizzie Rascell!
    • dainbramage559, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Sol.Illaquists of Sound
      Be sure to check them out as well.
    • tical2756, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1...and Shihan
    • lunarworks, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1As a Canadian regular listener of Triple J, some Aussie hip-hop is annoying as hell. But some of it's alright.

      dainbramage559:
      I'm not much of a Hip Hop enthusiast, but "As If We Existed" by Sol.Illaquists of Sound gets heavy play on my iPod. Wicked tune.
  • resprung, on 10/12/2007, -3/+49Remember "hair metal"? The stupid clichés and posturing wore themselves out in 5 years, ending up a complete joke the instant Nirvana got exposure.

    Rap clichés have somehow survived unchanged for 20 long years.

    How the hell does the market not move on?

    Who sustains dumb-asses like Diddy, Chingy or Nelly in long careers?
    • ladyarcher85, on 10/12/2007, -0/+21Who sustains them?
      the people who buy their crappy music and whatever diarrhea they spew out.
    • x0nIMIn0x, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14Agreed.

      As a (relatively) old man (for an internet forum) I realize my opinion on hip-hop is pretty *****' irrelevant, but I've noticed that I don't seek out new hip-hop anymore. I find I still get excited about new stuff in other types of music, though.

      Whenever I hear new rap on the radio, it sounds familiar and easy to classify as a certain commercial flavor. The collection of older rap on my iPod, that I used to really dig, is starting to remind me of the music from my high school classic rock phase. Though I'm still into it when I hear it, I just don't re-visit the tracks much anymore.

      Popular music trends always seem to alternate between periods of quality and periods of crap. Hip-hop is overdue for a fresh wave or a new direction.
    • Mothrog, on 10/12/2007, -4/+31Wiggers.
    • kronix2, on 10/12/2007, -2/+52"Who sustains dumb-asses like Diddy, Chingy or Nelly in long careers?"

      Middle-class white children.
    • KenOh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6How true. I always point out in these discussions the "coincidence" of both Motley Crue and JZ having a track titled "Girls, Girls, Girls." Rap is in its hair metal phase and has been for a long while now.
    • locodude, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7However, hair metal is on the rise again. Be afraid, be very afraid.
    • WallyAnti, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2c'mon chingy's not a total waste. He's got great comedic value.
    • moosebaloney, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3I rhyme and I rip, I rip and I rhyme. I SPIT HOT FIRE!!!!
    • acdcfanbill, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3hair metal isn't on the rise again, metal and lots of nu-metal is on the rise.
    • martoq, on 10/12/2007, -1/+220 Years? That's a bit of a stretch. Having grown up on 80's and early 90's hip hop, when hip hop was barely a container to put this form of music in, I can say that only in the past 10 years has the formula been rinsed washed and repeated. I find as I glance through my play list on my ipod, any hip hop that is on the is roughly around mid 90's and prior. Like to many things these days, its become a streamlined cash cow to milk cash from people who deserve better.
    • dainbramage559, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"Who sustains dumb-asses like Diddy, Chingy or Nelly in long careers?"

      15 year olds.
  • davymac, on 10/12/2007, -8/+50Saul Williams? Mos Def? Talib Kweli? GZA and RZA? Dan the Automator? Del The Funky Homosapien?
    It's not dead.. the good stuff's just not promoted
    • orientis, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Del the Funky Homosapien is still around?!
    • livestradamus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+31More Good Rap:
      Immortal Technique, The Roots, Jurassic 5, Atmosphere, Common, Nas, Rakim, Dialated Peoples, Zion I, Living Legends, 2mex, Chino XL & many many more.

      Hip Hop isn't music, Hip Hop is culture and a way of life. Rap is only one of the four elements.

      In all honesty, I pray mainstream quickly loses interest because thats whats ***** "killed" it. Then Rap can do full circle and return to its roots.

      Growing up in NYC in the 80s and 90s when living the Hip Hop life was, not a secret but rather it had a smaller following it felt real cool and special- kind of like our little thing and movement.
      Then when it went popular and appealed to the masses- the money makin mother ***** labels and crooked A&Rs ***** it over to stopping all creativity and recycling ***** over and over again.

      Where has originality and creativity gone? Bring that ***** back.
    • livestradamus, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1many consider beatboxing as the 5th element.. so I guess really 5
    • Psxtreme, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Also just wanna mention Jedi Mind Tricks as well
      at least some people are keeping it real to what hip hop is all about
    • bossmanxport, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Agreed, some of the best hip hop is not promoted, Canibus, MF Doom, Talib Kweli, Common (one of hip hop's unsung greats), Greydon Square (Relatively new compared to others). and it seems like the audience is programmed to like what the mainstream tells them what to like.
    • mastercheif, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7dead prez
    • someguyouknow, on 10/12/2007, -5/+15MF DOOM aka Viktor Vaughn aka Metal Fingers aka King Ghidra aka Zev Love X aka King Geedorah (as well as Madvillain and DangerDOOM)
      one.be.lo
      Visionaires
      Little Brother
      Madlib (and all of his aliases)
      P.O.S.
      LMNO
      Planet Asia
      Dilated Peoples
      Aesop Rock
      Percy P
      RJD2
      Soul Position
      Prince Paul
      The Roots
      Talib Kweli
      Blackalicious
      Lyrics Born
      Crown City Rockers
      Diverse
      Illogic
      J-Live
      Asheru & Blue Black
      Murs
      Peanut Butter Wolf
      Wordsworth
      Vast Aire
      etc.....

      You gotta step into the underground to find the good stuff...
    • Alfdog, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I can't believe I haven't seen someone say that hip hip and rap are NOT the same. Hip hop has original beats with intelligent lyrics, while current mainstream rap is just the same two word hooks set to beats that only sound good after 5 drinks at the club.
    • viperman5000, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Something about this topic gets brought up all the time. The simple answer is that you have to *look* for real hip hop. The crap the industry just shoves in our face is what gives it a bad name. Lil' Jon, Three 6 Mafia, Dem Franchize Boyz, Mike Jones, they're just the tip of the hip-hop iceberg, that is if you want to call *that* hip-hop.

      Next time, instead of putting in that Lil' Wayne CD, put in Common, or Mos Def, A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul, Talib Kweli, Jedi Mind Tricks, Dilated Peoples, Immortal Technique, Jurassic 5, the list goes on and on. Open your mind to what hip-hop really is.


    • viperman5000, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4In fact, check out Common's "I Used to Love H.E.R."

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54PE43Wvmpg

      Some of the best lyricism you'll hear today.
    • coztopia, on 10/12/2007, -9/+1@livestradamus

      "elements"?? "culture"? "way of life"?

      get over it.
    • livestradamus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3coztopia,
      Get over what?
      Don't try to be clever about it, just post up your thoughts on the matter.

      PS - If you're only trolling- don't bother, I don't *****.
    • Rooster99, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Around my area (Australia), the radio is trying to replace the grafitti aspect of hip-hop with 'fasion'. It is all revolving around the big dollar sign, and the producers know that there is tons more cash in selling fasion, then in pushing graf. Its really sad actually. But it will soon die out and the next big thing will come along, and be ruined like every other music fad that has been and gone. Only then will the true culture of hip-hop return.

      And this is all coming from someone (me) who doesent really like hip-hop. But just cause I dont like it doesent mean that I cant respect it for what it is supposed to be.
    • Kielistic, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1K'naan is an amazing hip hop artist I haven't seen anyone mention. If you're into hip hop like Talib Kweli you should definitely check out K'naan
    • fatbyjhnsn, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2But that's the point man. The good stuff isn't promoted because there isn't enough and people aren't listening to it. Bottom line, if you've got an artform where the good stuff doesn't rise to the top every once in a while then you don't have a healthy artform.
    • supamii, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I ***** love underground hip-hop. Not because its underground but because I love hip-hop.
    • kikuchiyo11, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I agree with the comments already made on this thread, but I want to thrown in Brother Ali, on Atmosphere's label. He's really good.
    • elvisv, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0viperman5000

      Sad that the example is from 13 YEARS ago. But yeah, Resurrection is a classic, classic album. I hate his newest ***** though...
  • munky100, on 10/12/2007, -10/+5I've been saying this for ages! Hip-hop is dying out, nowdays all you hear on the radio is indie and emo *****... I cant stand it!
  • MrSpookyPants, on 10/12/2007, -1/+31Hip hop sucks these days because any no talent ass clown in somebody's entourage can make a rap record and get airplay for it.
    • loki440, on 10/14/2007, -5/+137You're totally right. Hip hop is dying because the music is so ***** formulaic. I feel like I've heard the same song for the last fifteen years. Here's the formula to 80% of all hip-hop:

      1. Claim you're the world's best MC. Your claim should include boasts of sexual prowess or physical toughness (preferably both)
      2. State that all other MCs are either substandard or homosexual. Threatening violence is ok.
      3. Reference your high net worth.
      4. Describe in detail the material goods your high net worth affords you.
      5. Include at least one reference to a club. Make sure it contains the words "Cristal" and "VIP" .
      6. Don't forget the bitches in the club. As a rule of thumb, if there's no bitches, it's not hip-hop.
      7. Describe how the bitches are impressed with either: a) the size of your financial estate, b) the size of your *****, or c) both.
      8. Brag about how your large______ enabled you to have sexual relations with the bitches and then send them packing.
      9. Reiterate your claim as being the world's best MC.
      10. Give a shoutout to your producer.

      Done. I'm going to send this to 50 Cent. He'll probably use it as is...
    • UO07, on 10/12/2007, -2/+37@loki440

      The 22" rims.. don't forget the 22" rims. Oh, and bling.
    • loki440, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13@UO07

      How could I forget the rims! That's a good catch.
    • jstem1994, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9And in your video, throw lots of money in the air. .....like you just don't care.
    • randf, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4you forgot the "shoutout" to all your favorite sports stars by wearing oversized games jerseys somewhere in the video. i guess that gets you a season ticket somewhere.
    • defythereds, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3wouldn't 22" rims fall under the material goods afforded by the high net worth?
    • Emmo213, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Dugg for use of "ass clown"
    • AJay85, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@ Loki

      I read your list, then I thought of this verse:

      (excerpt from Lupe Fiasco - "Daydreamin'")
      Now come on everybody, let's make cocaine cool
      We need a few more half naked women up in the pool
      And hold this MAC-10 that's all covered in jewels
      And can you please put your titties closer to the 22s?
      And where's the champagne? We need champagne
      Now look as hard as you can with this blunt in your hand
      And now hold up your chain slow motion through the flames
      Now cue the smoke machines and the simulated rain
      But not too loud 'cause the baby's sleepin
      I wonder if it knows what the world is keepin
      Up both sleeves while he lay there dreamin
      Me and my robot tip-toe 'round creepin
      I had to turn my back on what got you paid
      I couldn't see half the hood on me like Abu Ghraib
      But I'd like to thank the streets that drove me crazy
      And all the televisions out there that raised me, I was
  • cam503, on 10/12/2007, -3/+21I came up with a philosophy I feel applies to the majority of the mainstream music industry at the moment:

    "They're trying to turn an art into a science."

    I don't feel it needs to be explained.
  • Abstract147, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5Poet Laureate 2 - Canibus

    If only everyone who judged hip hop would at least take a listen to this.

  • interrelate, on 10/12/2007, -11/+2Don't you mean rap is dying out? BEP rules!!

    Anyways, is rap and hip hop the same?
    • livestradamus, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3BEP is so/so today. They were waaaay better before that rat faced slut joined them.
      Check "Behind the Front" and "Bridging the Gap" for dopeness.
      Fort Minor (Mike Shinoda of Linkin Park + Styles of Beyond) is 1000x better.
  • yensed, on 10/12/2007, -2/+39Its not just Hip Hop that sucks recently.
  • jessekeys, on 10/12/2007, -1/+20dugg for the title alone :)
    but it's not the problem of hip hop as a genre, it's a general problem as we know: commercialization sucks.
    throw your radios and tvs into the trash bin, there's enough free/indie/nonRIAA music out there that's good and worth hearing (try jamendo.com)
    • Rooster99, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Not for much longer - If you are reffering to internet radio, then Ive got some bad news for you (and anyone else who is sick to death of being reamed by mainstream radio). Internet radio (in the US anyway) is about to have its life-support turned off, and then we will have to listen to overseas internet radio - not really a problem as such, but it does limit the ability for underground american artists to get exposed without sucking a HUGE amount of record label *****.
    • wounded625, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@Rooster99:

      you can have internet radio, just not internet radio that has artists that belong to the RIAA
    • concertina, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@wounded625

      And when the RIAA runs to the FCC and tries to get your favorite internet radio station shut down claiming that they played RIAA-member songs (because they HATE competition), who do you think will get the benefit of the doubt? It's he-said, she-said, my friend, and the RIAA's not gonna lose that battle any time soon.
  • blaze03, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14I wouldn't say that this phenomenon is strictly hip hop. Popular music in general has been on a downward spiral for 1-2 years now. I am a hip hop fan and I agree it's sucking right now, but so is everything else. Just turn on the radio, there are no good songs and haven't been for a while. I live in LA and usually tune into Power 106 (hip hop), kiis fm (top 40), and kroq (alternative/rock) and everything is *****. I gave up on the radio and now I listen only to CDs in the car now.
    • codmate, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8I have pretty much given up on commercial music.
      Some of it is incredibly well constructed from a technical point of view - but everything is mastered too hot for my tatse and the material is mostly unimaginative and re-treads old ground.

      Back to my old jazz records I guess ;)
    • MrFlesh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I hear more radio stations playing 90's musci than anything new. You might get one new song an hour on a mix station. Most rock stations don't even touch anything after 200o unless it was a band that went big before then. Emo is mid 80's flock of sea gull ***** all over again. Complete with the stupid checkered shoes and stupid hair.
    • orientis, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Most music sucks these days because of commercialisation. Almost before an underground scene gets off the ground it is co-opted and sold back to the public in easy to understand sound bites. The problem is money money money. Currency as a measure of value. Things won't change until we develop a new method of trade, I think. Don't ask me how or what kind, I'm not an economist. Our current system is *****.
    • Mosatii, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Our system is fine, you're just too idealogical.
    • jstem1994, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0At least with my XM radio I can choose some older stuff. Still rocking the metal from the 80's. Not so much Poison & crap, but older Metallica & Megadeth, old Iron Maiden, etc... (Then switch to the uncensored comedy station.)

      Yes, I'm an aging hair band fan.
    • orientis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Yep, our system rules. For those of us not in third-world countries of course. (But then, that's everyone, right?)

      Pull your head out of the sand mate.
    • android32, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Popular music has always sucked. Good popular music is an oxymoron, it's the lowest common denominator that has always ruled the popular music industry.
    • fatbyjhnsn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Commercialization really isn't the issue. Commercialization is really just a tool, it can be used for good and evil.

      Take a look at the pop charts from 1969. You'll see many more quality artists than you see on the #1 charts today. Why? Because people were actively supporting good music then, and they don't now. Comercialization isn't necessarily bad, its what gets commercialized that is bad, and that's because people insists on buying crap.

      IF ITS CRAP DON'T BUY IT!
  • NinjaPig, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1The good rappers keep shifting to acting.
    That ***** needs to quit.

    No i'm not talking about 50 cent....but more like mos def(though he is a pretty good actor).
  • Gatchaman, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3Music artists, just don't have the same level of talent compared to the 80's.
    • adarkmethod, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5speaking as an avid music fan, and a musician, this is just. There's more music by more talented people than any other time in history, ever
  • adarkmethod, on 10/12/2007, -6/+30firstly, know that this is coming from metalhead/rocker. I play guitar and Bass, and im biased to rock. need proof, check my last.fm @ http://www.last.fm/user/adarkmethod/ and know that that doesnt include the hundreds of times i've listened to Darkest Hour, As I lay Dying, A7X, or Bullet for My Valentine while driving around.

    but if you think Hip Hop is dead you havent heard:
    Dj Dangermouse
    Atmosphere
    Tech N9ne
    Mel Gibson and the Pants
    Peeping Tom
    General Patton vs. The X-ecutioners
    Matisyahu
    Talib Kweli
    MC Chris
    DangerDoom
    Styles of Beyond
    Aesop Rock
    Mos Def
    Tricky


    I'm sure I left off plenty of other great hip hop/rap artists. Just stop letting RIAA and the mainstream spoonfeed you what you listen to.
    • Kurisuku, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4I would hope everyone on digg has at least heard of Mcchris, otherwise something is seriously wrong with the geekiness of this site.
    • Corqueatsz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12lol @ "Metalhead" listening to A7X.
    • TheCheeks, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3those are some of the best underground artists. hiphop is NOT dead.
    • daza, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Styles of Beyond is great.. loved his work on "The Rising Teid".
    • enzomedici, on 10/12/2007, -10/+2
      The underground.....shut the ***** up with that *****.

      Only in music is it a common belief that the best music never gets out. That underground music
      is just so ***** good that no one wants to hear it - only a few select mutha ***** are capable of understanding that ***** ass rap group or
      ***** band playing at the neighborhood bar.

      "The underground are where the true artists are - the ones that haven't sold out yet." You hear this ***** all the time.
      It's called not good enough to get a record deal.

      The underground my ass. The underground.....lol.



    • bickdigg, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12Matisyahu is more reggae than hip-hop to me, but still rocks.

      for good hip hop, check (the first 3 are French)
      Fonky Family ("Art de Rue"),
      IAM ("L'école du micro d'argent"),
      NTM,
      Jedi Mind Tricks,
      Immortal Technique,
      KRS-One,
      MC Lyte,
      Beenie Man,
      DJ Premier,
      Big Shug,
      Capone N Noreaga,
      CunninLynguists,
      Cypress Hill (obviously),
      Dilated Peoples,
      Non Phixion,
      People Under The Stairs,...

      Music ain't dying, mainstream music is just crap.
    • daza, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Er, I referenced SOB as "his", meant to say "their work". /slaps self.
    • JuyLe, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2bickdigg, do you have crappier things than those ? I remember listening to those french groups when I was like 12, IAM, NTM, Assassin, are worth listening because it's the good ol' days in the early 90's, but the others...
    • docj13, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I've read this page completely and have seen the roots and mos def posted over and over again. How can anyone list them as current, outstanding hiphop when they have not released anything worth a damn in years. Seed 2.0? Get serious. Mos Def's latest album was trash too, and everyone knows it.

      Immortal technique is good but just raps about how racist everyone is, and how awesome HE is. Remind anyone of Canibus? We all remember how successful he was. (Brilliant Lyricist, though.)

      The golden age of hiphop, for me at least, was around 1995-2001. This was when the best Wu albums (Only built 4 Cuban linx, liquid swords, enter the 36 chambers) were released, Mobb Deep was good, Nas was good, Biggie was still alive, 2pac was still alive, Tribe was still releasing albums, and Ms Def/Kweli were not releasing horse *****.

      I agree some Dangermouse, K-OS, and Atmosphere is the best thing we've got now, but hiphop is over saturated with raggaeton, dirty south style, and terrible beats/lyricists for the most part.
      • Scagli3tti, on 02/03/2008, -0/+1If you think Seed 2.0 is about getting girls pregnant, The Roots are not for you. In order to appreciate their music, you need to have half a brain and actually THINK about the lyrics. Go figure.

        And for anyone listening, Seed 2.0 is about trying to leave a musical legacy behind. The Roots have always been in a tough position in that their style of hip-hop has so much rock&roll influence. The problem with that is, the hip-hop "crowd" doesn't want to have anything to do with rock&roll, and The Roots are thus often ostracized by the mainstream garbage crowd being promoted on the radio today.

        "She don't want no rock-n-roll
        She want platinum or ice or gold
        She want a whole lotta somethin' to fold"

        But The Roots try to integrate anyways.

        "fertilize another behind my lover's back."

        Just look up the lyrics to the whole song and with this in mind the meaning of it will be a lot more clear.
    • S2ThaNizzle, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I'm sorry, but as much as I like Peeping Tom (I really do, I saw them/him [Mike Patton] open for Gnarls Barkley last year, they/he were/was great!), that is definitely NOT hip-hop! It's more like Pop music on drugs.

      @ docj13:
      How can you criticize The Roots and Mos Def, while praising K-Os in the same post?! K-Os is so overrated in Canada that it's not even funny. All he ever does it talk ***** about other mainstream rappers while sounding very bitter... and my respect for him dropped to 0 when I saw him live last year and he forgot his words various times during his set! What kind of a rapper forgets his own rhymes?!?!?!
    • fatbyjhnsn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I like all the artists listed but how many have had #1 albums?

      I'm not saying having a #1 album is all it takes to be good, but if you don't have good music at the top sometimes there is something wrong with your roots.
    • bytor4232, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Don't forget Kovas and Lady Sovereign. Lady Sovereign might not be everyone's cup of tea, but Kovas kicks serious ass.
    • Scagli3tti, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@ docj13

      Telling The Roots to "get serious"???

      Did you even listen to Game Theory? If you did and still stick by your previous remark, all I can say is: please go back to pitchfork and rid us of your unbridled ignorance.
  • batmang, on 10/12/2007, -6/+0I know what will fix this... Remix!
  • Threlly, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10There's some who say it was dead back in '85, and it could be described as having been a zombie for a decade at least.

    Somebody once said "Pop will eat itself", and how true, there's only so many times you can say the same thing before we finally cotton on that its just marketing we're listening to.
    Also, the effect on the social fabric of the African-American community has been devastating.
    The pursuit of Money, Fame and Notoriety above anything of real value has drugged kids the world over.
    And that's the important thing here, kids.
    Hip-Hop is so past its sell by date its used by corporate America to communicate with the under 10's in the absence of real discussion, unable to raise the energy to speak properly, they just throw a new 'dangerous' Hip-hop star with a an anti-establishment flavour and the jobs a good-un.
    • Kurisuku, on 10/12/2007, -3/+16The thing with modern music is that people really won't have anything to look back on and say, "Wow, that was amazing!" Emo bands are disposable music. It's music for people who don't like music. Same with all modern "hiphop", and pop isn't even what pop used to be. It's just plastic now.

      Rock is dead, even in the indie scene, and the good bands do tend to make a niche for themselves.. But they're hardly what I would refer to as legendary. They're not being promoted. Underground was always nice, but now things are getting too underground. Artists with real heart and message aren't able to reach the amount of people they probably could have back in the early 90's.

      What happened? Consumerism. I mean really, we're living in an age where your average white suberbanite kid buys a Fall Out Boy CD, wears 300 dollars diesel jeans and 140 dollar diesel shoes while gauging their ears and chatting away on their Iphone. People don't respect a movement anymore. They just respect chasing the "american dream": Make money 9-5, make babies, buy ***** you don't need, die. It's a machine that youth is now CONFORMING TO. Never had I saw kids as young as their early 20's conform to what would of been considered selling out only a mere 15 years ago.

      It's depressing. Soul is dead.
    • MrFlesh, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6preach on kurisuku......I've noticed this too......never in my life as a teenager was being trendy cool, but apparently it's consumerism that's cool now....Of course that would go along with the whole relive the 80's thing.
    • smedrick, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5"Artists with real heart and message aren't able to reach the amount of people they probably could have back in the early 90's."

      You've got to be kidding me. Back in the early 90's, all the artists had was a tape recorder and a stack of cassettes. Now they've got cheap, studio-quality recording equipment, programs like Garage Band, and the internet. It's never been a better time to be an indie artist. The problem we have as an audience is sifting through the endless sea of self-produced music to find something we like.
    • Cerebral, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@smedrick
      Exactly what I was going to say...

      I don't understand people here. It sounds to me that a lot of people here do not understand, or are willing to cope with the fact that they are growing up. The young kids are the ones who influence music because they are the most passionate about music; they are the ones going to the shows (13-26). kurisuku has completely lost the point. (In Rock) The majority of the bands who are popular now are actually becoming mainstream because they were indie and because of the internet (myspace and purevolume mostly) they have become too big and have forced mainstream to pay attention to them. The prime example of this is Fall Out Boy who basically became popular only because of their online following from Myspace.

      There is some good mainstream hip-hop, the game has just changed. Wu-Tang was the biggest underground sound to ever make it mainstream and you cannot deny that. Look at the song Forever, it is what 5:38 and there is no chorus!!! Each and every member of the Wu are very grounded and it still shows in all of their music. Today artists like Ludacris (haven't seen his name mentioned on here once!), Kanye West and Eminem use lyrics to paint elaborate pictures, stories and situations that parallel the golden age of Hip Hop when songs were about struggle and strife with rights and some of the same issues today.

      I will also agree that the radio for the most part is dead. There is maybe one to two songs per hour that may be good songs but the problem is that they push crap so much that if you were to listen to one radio station for a day you would hear that same song 15-20 times which will make the song suck. Underground music has it's place and it is both good and bad to say that the underground scene is becoming more mainstream (in rock anyway) but mainstream also has it's purpose and it does the job.

      What I would really love to see (and I thought XM and/or Sirius was going to do this) is a radio station that actually plays good music and not label friendly stuff. At least play me the lesser known tracks from the known artist. I don't know why they don't do this as it would be more interesting to listen to the radio if you didn't know what song you were going to hear next.
    • Kurisuku, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Actually, Fallout Boy didn't become popular because of myspace. They became popular because the bassist has family in the business.

      Hawthorne Heights, on the other hand, I believe became popular because of Myspace. But all those bands melt together anyhow.

      Back in the early 90's there was definitely more of a chance to meet more people. Thinking that the internet really helps you in any way is entirely ignorant. I work in music, actually, and let me tell you that the only way to really get exposure is either A) A label to promote you, or B) A ton of touring. The internet is a disposable media. Even if you have amazing music, how many people are really going to find it and love it? Even if they do find it, are they going to pay attention to it? Not likely, it's "just an internet band." That's the problem, really.

      Music has definitely gone back to singles, and music has definitely become disposable again. Which is why, unlike the early 90's, artists cannot easily land themselves the promotional deal they need unless they fall into a very slim category of plastic music.
  • Ngai, on 10/12/2007, -13/+8Mirror of Entire Article:

    Hip Hop Isn’t Dying, It Just Sucks
    Posted by J-Ro

    Editor’s Note: News headlines make up the usual discussion here at The Seminal. However, Tuesdays we include contributions of music and culture in combination with our standard political fare. If you are a practicing musician, please send us a work of yours in mp3 format. We also encourage articles from practicing or amateur music critics. If your work product suits our tastes, you’ll find it posted the following Tuesday. Enjoy!

    Hip hop sales are down. According to Nielsen SoundScan, sales in the Rap category dropped 20.7% compared with sales in 2005. That is the second largest drop behind the New Age category, which fell 22.7%. Right behind in this dismal race is R&B with a drop of 18.4%. Of course record sales are down across the industry, but the average change is only -2.4% with some genres, such as Classical, gaining as many percentage points as Rap lost. Clearly hip hop, which has been the darling of the record industry these last few years, is in trouble.

    But why are sales down? Countless articles, including a recent high profile story from the AP, have said the problems with hip hop stem solely from its content. The above article among others argues that hip hop lyrics too degrading towards women and the thug life image is played out. From the article:

    “I’m not removed from it, but I can’t really tell the difference between Young Jeezy and Yung Joc. It’s the same dumb stuff to me,” says [Nicole] Duncan-Smith, 33 [who is married to a hip hop producer]. “I can’t listen to that nonsense … I can’t listen to another black man talk about you don’t come to the ‘hood anymore and ghetto revivals … I’m from the ‘hood. How can you tell me you want to revive it? How about you want to change it? Rejuvenate it?”

    OK. Point taken. The music doesn’t speak to you. But here’s the real deal: If you go out there and just replace all the negatives in rap lyrics with positives, replace every Young Jeezy-type MC with a Common and every call to murder with an exhortation to love your fellow man, hip hop sales would still be down. Why? Because people fail to realize that hip hop first and foremost is a musical art-form. Right now, hip hop just isn’t living up to musical standards. It’s just plain bad.

    A Comparison

    Enter the Wu-Tang Clan

    Enter the Wu-Tang Clan

    On one hand you’ve got what I would call “artistically interesting” hip hop, hip hop that has musical value and makes an artistic statement. One example would be the legendary song “CREAM” by The Wu-Tang Clan off of 1993’s Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers). To refresh you’re memory here’s the track:

    On the surface, the lyrical content of this cut is pretty similar to what’s popular today. It’s about growing up in the ghetto and living the thug life, the same exact themes hit on in about every song on the hip hop charts today. Here’s the rundown:

    Do we have violence? Sure!

    And running
    up in gates, and doing hits for high stakes

    Drugs? Yep.

    No question I would speed, for cracks and weed
    The combination made my eyes bleed

    Money? That’s easy…just look at the title (CREAM = Cash Rules Everything Around Me).

    It’s all there. So what’s the difference? Well to start, lyrically “CREAM” is about more than just drugs and guns. This particular song is also about survival, big dreams, and the mysteries of life:

    It’s been twenty-two long hard years of still strugglin
    Survival got me buggin, but I’m alive on arrival
    I peep at the shape of the streets
    And stay awake to the ways of the world cause ***** is deep
    A man with a dream with plans to make C.R.E.A.M.
    Which failed; I went to jail at the age of 15
    A young buck sellin drugs and such who never had much
    Trying to get a clutch at what I could not… could not…
    The court played me short, now I face incarceration
    Pacin — going up state’s my destination
    Handcuffed in back of a bus, forty of us
    Life as a shorty shouldn’t be so ruff
    But as the world turns I learned life is hell
    Living in the world no different from a cell

    The complexity in the lyrics helps push this song into the artistic realm. Of course, it has musical credentials too, but we’ll get to that later.

    Let’s contrast the above with Pretty Ricky’s “Push It Baby”, which was as high as #5 on the Billboard hip hop/r&b charts. Here it is, in case you haven’t heard it yet:

    Pretty Ricky...ugh

    Pretty Ricky...ugh
    Again, on the surface this song references familiar themes. You’ve got sex of course. Here’s the hook:

    I Wanna See You Push It Baby Oh Just Push That Thang On Me
    Push It Baby I Wanna See You

    You’ve got money:

    Buying Out The Bar Like It Ain’t No Thang
    Hot Boy Like Wayne
    Diamonds In My Chain Blang Blang Blang

    And the ghetto life:

    Urban Legend In The Hood Like T.I.

    But let’s face it, these lyrics can’t even begin to touch Raekwon and the rest of The Clan! Here’s a bit more if you aren’t convinced:

    When I Step Up In He Club-I’m So Hot Hot Hot
    Tossing Dollars At These Hoes Like Ah Ah Ah
    Pretty Woman Up In Here Like Bah Bah Bah
    Spitting Game In Their Ear Like - Lalalalalalaa
    Baby Blue I Don’t Play No Games
    Head To My Feet So Fresh So Clean
    Buying Out The Bar Like It Ain’t No Thang
    Hot Boy Like Wayne
    Diamonds In My Chain Blang Blang Blang
    I got canary diamond Bustas
    Got the matching Lamborghini same color mustard
    Baying drinks for these chicks and now they owe me
    More gin if u wine I’m the same ol G

    As far as I can tell, there isn’t another side to this song. There is no complexity to be found. There’s nothing about the world beyond “the club”, nothing about growing up poor, or even much about the classic rags to riches story. I get no indication that the rappers in this song are thinking beyond the next drink or the next diamond or the next girl. It’s all bitches and booty and bling (and ***** if you ask me).

    Now, “CREAM” may already be winning this comparison, but I would argue that if you put “CREAM’s” excellent lyrics under “Push It Baby’s” beat, you’d still have a dud. Here’s why:

    Musically these songs are in different leagues. “CREAM” employs (by my count anyway) at least 10 different musical samples to create texture and to demarcate different internal sections. “Push It Baby” uses maybe 5. Sure the songs have the same basic structure of verse/chorus pairs, but “CREAM” adds musical drops, reversed samples, delays and echos to the mix. It all adds up to create an atmospheric track that feels empty, spacious and melancholic, and just like the lyrics.

    On the other hand, “Push It Baby” will cut the beat occasionally, but the instrumentation is pretty static throughout the song with samples coming in and out in extremely predictable ways. To me it feels claustrophobic. Where “CREAM” is repetitive in a minimalist way, “Push It Baby” repeats like a bad advertising slogan; it’s determined to drive that hook into your head whether you like it or not. To me, “CREAM” comes off as well structured and layered where “Push It Baby” with its played out instrumentation and attention-getting riffs, feels cookie-cutter and monotonous. To put it another way, I can listen to “CREAM” over and over again and hear something new each time. With “Push It Baby” all I have to hear is the first verse and the hook and I’ve pretty much got the idea. Here’s what it comes down to: “CREAM” is art and “Push It Baby” is not.

    Even if you take a step back, Wu-Tang’s entire album and image are way more interesting than Pretty Ricky’s. 36 Chambers is an album in the style of Pink Floyd or The Beatles. It is a coherent piece of work. Each of its songs have something to say and it holds together as a complete artistic statement. No wonder it is widely considered one of the greatest hip hop albums ever produced. On top of that, the Wu-Tang clan projects a multifaceted image. Part thug, pimp, philosopher and poet, the Clan isn’t just a one-note wonder.

    Pretty Ricky’s album Late Night Special isn’t cohesive. It may be just about sex, but there is no artistic statement to be found. Here’s what one reviewer had to say:

    If sex sells, then Pretty Ricky’s second album will likely be a big hit on the music charts, because songs about sex is about all that this four-man vocal group has to offer.

    Certainly this album won’t stand the test of time like 36 Chambers, and neither will the group. Pretty Ricky’s image is the slick, blinged-out sex addict and that’s where it ends. How can I be expected to stay interested?

    But Pop Ain’t Art

    “OK!” you say, “You’ve made your point. Pretty Ricky isn’t art. But popular music isn’t about art anyway. Since when do the pop charts reflect artistic value?” Well, that’s not entirely true. I say the pop charts do reflect art, albeit in a roundabout way.

    Good music, music with artistic value, does not necessarily rise to the top of the charts. However, the pop charts aren’t always the cultural wasteland they have been these past few years. Elvis Presley had #1 hits, so did Stevie Wonder, Santana, James Brown, Aretha Franklin, The Beatles, and Janis Joplin, all artists with significant artistic merit. In the hip hop world, real artists like Kanye West, OutKast, Lauryn Hill, and Biggy Smalls all spent at least a week at #1. Though the pop charts measure sales and not artistic merit, some of the good stuff does hit occasionally.

    The real problem with hip hop though, to me anyway, is the lack of an artistically interesting underground from which these hits are spawned. Without a solid underground scene its hard to create hit after hit worth listening to. For example, in 1969 Marvin Gaye, Sly & the Family Stone, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Elvis Presley, Peter, Paul, and Mary, and Diana Ross & The Supremes all held a #1 song, and each one of these musical entities had something artistic to say. Why were there so many artistically valid #1 songs in 1969? Because the rock, folk and soul underground scenes were booming! With so many bands making so much music at the same time, smart artists had the opportunity to synthesize each genre down to its essential elements and craft songs that were both artistically valid and broadly appealing. I think hip hop right now lacks that critical mass that a vibrant artistic underground scene brings and which is needed to achieve the same effect. Without this kind of foundation the hip hop music that hits on the charts is fated to be nothing more than a fad, a quick flash in the pan with no real thought behind it.

    Sure there are a lot of interesting artists in the underground hip hop scene. Immortal Technique, OneBeLo, and Thaione Davis are just a few of the hundreds out there trying to do something good with the music. But for every true artist trying to make it there are two MC’s just trying to ride the fad and cash in. As each hip hop “genre” comes and goes (Crunk, Screwed, Reggaeton, and Dancehall to name a sad few), more and more untalented people come out with their own version of the latest sound. This only serves to add more noise to the system and those putting out real music get drowned out. The scene right now is chaotic, without any unity or artistic purpose; it’s just people trying to get rich.

    Without this cohesive scene there is no foundation. More one-hit wonders get thrown up the charts, each making pure pop music with no artistic backing behind it. Without a functioning underground artistic music will make it to the top only rarely because so little artistic music is being made in the first place. It is hard for an artist to synthesize, create, and collaborate if there is no one around worth working with. Honestly, it’s a wonder we’ve seen the likes of Kanye and Biggy on the charts at all!

    Create Art People!

    So what’s the answer? Well, I’d argue that it’s deceptively simple. Really, all you have to do is make good music. You can write your lyrics about whatever you want as long as you put some thought into it. And you can derive your musical influences and samples from whatever corner of the world you choose as long as they all come together in a cohesive and interesting way. Now, making art is by no means easy, but it is the only way to ensure hip hop will continue to be relevant in the future.

    It takes a lot to “kill” a genre of music. People have been writing about the end of rock and rap since the day they were created. I’m not saying hip hop is dying or dead. But I am saying that if hip hop wants to be more than top 40 fluff, if it wants to mean something to people like it did in the 80’s and early 90’s, if it wants to speak for a generation, then it needs to get out of the money game and start getting back into making real music for real people. It is the only way.

    If you think that I’m right then don’t buy the crap out there! Vote with your wallet and do your part to keep bad hip hop out of everyone’s ears. We will thank you later. On the flip side, support the artists out there who are making something you care about. When America gets over its current obsession with hip hop inspired money and violence, these worthy underground artists will still be there ready to give people something worth enjoying.

    What do you think? Am I right or dead wrong? How can we save hip hop, if indeed it is in need of saving? Please discuss in the comments below…
    • ezweave, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1As said above, this guy is a poor journalist. This is basically a less-educated re-hash of a "Cross Wired" from the Onion A.V. club, a few weeks ago.

      There is a very interesting hip-hop underground that was spawned after "Three Feet High and Rising", "Paul's Boutique", etc: Sage Francis, Atmosphere, Dead Prez, Common, Black Star, The Roots, The Coup, Brother Ali, P.O.S., Madvillan, MF Doom...

      Comparing it to the 60/70s reveals his poor understanding of music history. After punk and the American Hardcore movement of the 80s, real art was given a place to flourish. Which is why you will never hear someone as great as Fugazi or as poignant as Gang Starr on the radio or tv.

      Art != commercial success... and probably never will again. Before you say, 'what about...', keep in mind that the best Modest Mouse album came out like six years ago. I.e. by the time the radio/tv gets to you, you are already well into your career, or (sadly) on the decline.
  • MrFlesh, on 10/12/2007, -1/+34Hip hop has been playing the same damn song since '92.

    I knew hip hop jumped the shark as soon as I heard the lyrics "It's goin' down, at the mall"

    Nothing ever goes down at the mall. And if you think something goes down at the mall you need to go other places than the mall.
    • enzomedici, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10
      Dude, in LA people get shot at the mall. The mall's no picnic out here.
    • Arakcheev, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1omg flesh thanks for making my day lol
    • jetpig, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2i'm a mall cop in downtown seattle, and ya ***** does happen. i've seen people stabbed, beaten bloody, and guns pulled. but i guess that's more downtown seattle than my specific mall. and i've only had to pepper spray one person so far in 6 months, they keep it just off property usually. : but msot malls in the US? lame ass *****.
    • fuzzynyanko, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Not to mention the Fruit of the Loom commercial to hip hop and a tricked out car.
    • resprung, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I was in a Blockbusters in Copenhagen recently, browsing for a movie.

      The rap track that was playing loudly in the store had the chorus lyrics:

      BITCHES ADDICTED TO MY DICK
      BITCHES ADDICTED TO MY DICK

      It was surreal. People were just shopping away, paying it no mind.

      I know there's misogyny in rock too, but the aggressive "hoes and bitches" thing seems deeply entrenched even in the watered-down hip-hop culture that's hit mainstream success in most western countries.

      Ghetto thug-life is ridiculously far removed from the reality of the kids around me consuming the music and buying the clothes and posters - they are skinny, white scandinavian kids that'll go through at least 12 years of education, probably won't ever own a gun, and the girls they'll end up with will be modern, ambitious and not AT ALL content to be seen as butt-shaking whores.

      Notice on M-TV "cribs" how all the rappers own pool tables and big TVs, but you never ever see a book anywhere.
  • thomasprebble, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6Not selling well? Could it be that is just plain sucks?
  • Flon, on 10/14/2007, -2/+79This reminds me of what Chris Rock said
    "You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named 'Bush', 'Dick', and 'Colon.' Need I say more?”
    • MrFlesh, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1hahahah I never heard that that's funny as *****.
  • codmate, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Anybody remember that DJ Shadow track?

    "It's the money"
  • ohgr, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8What we have here is the same thing that happened in the 80's with rock music. The Hair Metal/Glam Rock era. And now it's infected Rap Music.

    Personally I miss the days when Rap was something parents really feared. When NWA was a major threat to society. When 2 Live Crew were banned in The USA. And when White Boys didn't rap (sorry the Eminem fad is over kids. You can go back to the suburbs and stop pretending you understand what it is to be black and hardcore, (because you don't son).

    Eventually this will change. I know it will. Something big will come along, and you'll see P Diddy, and all the rest of the Cash Money Bling Blingers jump on the bandwagon to save their sorry ass careers (and fail miserably at it), just like the Hair Metal bands did when Alternative rock was Big. I had a good time laughing at Motley Crew when they tried to be alternative.
    • adarkmethod, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2thats right, because all rap is about the Hood and Ho's. Slug is Fraud, MGatP has NO talent. Mc Chris and Matisyahu must be frontin' too.
    • ohgr, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1You've proved my point. I never even heard of those guys.

      EDIT: Mc Chris is MC Pee Pants correct?
    • MrFlesh, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6black doods are not hardcore by default, many nowadays come from the same suburbs as white kids.....you can tell whos hardcore by how much they talk about how hardcore they are.........the more they flap thier gums bigger the bitches they are.
    • ohgr, on 10/12/2007, -7/+4Oh and one more note before I let go of this. No Rap isn't all about Hos and the Hood and G's and whatever else you were bitching about.
      Public Enemy talked about social issues involving the community. They were the most political rap group of their time. KRS-ONE is another good example of that kind of music. He wasn't political until years later after Boogie Down Productions. But still the man had a good message or two. Nas does a good job of bringing that aspect back to rap music. But it's just sad that it is over shadowed by these Bling Blinging Club Hoppers. Listen to the lyrics. That's all they talk about. Up in the club and *****. Come on! Write something different.

      My point was, I miss the Rawness the music had. Rap use to make me wanna move. Not this ***** that's all over the place now. God the drum beats alone make me want to fall into a deep coma.

      As for my White Boy comment. Yes you were right. I'm sorry i didn't realize there were other white rappers out there. The only two I knew of was Eminem and Bubba Sparxxx. And lately you haven't heard much from either camps. So what does that tell you?

      ps. I'm a white boy from the ghetto. So I know what i am talking about.
    • Mothrog, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10"ps. I'm a white boy from the ghetto. So I know what i am talking about."

      More likely you're a wigger under mommy and daddy's roof.
    • loki440, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@ohgr

      You are so on the money with the 80's hair band/ hip-hop comparison. Towards the end of the 80's, the metal scene was just sad. It was Def Leppard and a million of their clones churning out album after album of lifeless *****.

      Now hip hop is in the same place. Even the good ones like T.I. sound tired to me. Today's scene is missing heart. The first 45 seconds of "Black Steel in the Hour of Chaos" by Public Enemy beats any hip hop I've heard in the last 10 years.

    • turnlikeawheel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@ Mothrog:

      You do know what wigger means, don't you?
  • Nodaki, on 10/12/2007, -8/+2Rap died with Eazy-E.
    • senfo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Actually, I think it was a few years later with Tupac and Biggie.
  • adarkmethod, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1@ Corquetsz

    You're a moron who doesnt know ***** about Metal history if you try to deny that a7x's style isnt directly derived from Old Skool Metal. Yes they're comercialized, yes they have softer music, but that doesnt change the absolute fact that most of their guitar parts are rooted in metal.
    • Kurisuku, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Vanilla Ice's newest album has all guitar parts rooted in metal. Does that make it good?
    • MrFlesh, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2what are you talking about vanilla ice is cool always was always will be....."Ice Ice Baby" do do do dood do..really though if my friends used to start acting like assholes in my car I would throw that tape (yes tape) in blast it and drive reeeeal slow through club parking lots until they settled down.
    • Exploited, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Ignoring the fact that you could have replied to your own post so people know what you are talking about, I completely disagree with you.

      Yes, Avenged Sevenfold has some roots in metal (like you said, mainly guitar). I am not sure how having roots in something justifies it to be considered part of that genre. Emo and hardcore have roots in rock and metal, but that doesn't make My Chemical Romance a Thrash band.
    • Corqueatsz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Yeah, and they wear makeup, tight jeans and are signed to Warner Brothers Records. Two of them have their own clothing lines, and they've all got wicked-bad nicknames like Zacky Vengeance and Synyster gates. They're sooooo metal.
      I'm sorry, but being told I "don't understand metal" from somebody with charts made up of nu-metal crap like Linkin Park, Limp Bizkit and KoRn simply doesn't sit well with me.
    • adarkmethod, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2i believe i made it completely clear that i was into rock/metal. And if any of you have a more diverse last.fm list, i'd love to see it. I listen nu metal, rock, classic rock, singer songwriter stuff, emo, metal, metalcore, industrial, grunge, and tons more, all on a regular basis. No im not saying my taste in music makes me better than anyone, but i do belive having a broad range of music that you enjoy, and a good knowledge base about that music gives one more credibility in a musical discussion. and you still havent mentioned how a7x isnt metal, musically speaking. They're sell-outs absolutely, but that has no impact, again, on what the music is or isnt
    • MrFlesh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1If my choices were korn or my chemincal romance i pick korn. But really Linkin' park and limp bizkit where corporate korn clones. If your going by time period that would put system of a down in the same category But a gnere has to change a little it got to the point where every damn metal band sounded the same....it's still that way.
    • illuzionmod, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@MrFlesh
      Were corporate clones? You talk as if Linking Park isnt coming out with another album in a few months. Limp Bizkit was awful because Fred Durst was a piece of ***** poser and didnt have a musical bone in his body. I enjoy listening to Shinoda I like his flow and I just like LPs style in general but then Ill sit back and listen to some Led or AC/DC. By that rational all emo bands are corporate clones of Depeche Mode and The Cure. But thats what a genre is several bands that make up a similar sound.
  • evilmicrobrain, on 10/12/2007, -9/+2hip hop is just plain rubbish, Every one should listen to real music like rock and metal.
    hip hop should be banned, then there would be no chavs and townies.
    thank god.
  • theduke25, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7They ran out of money cash and ho lyrics. Thats why it sucks, they've made up all the words they could to describe those 3 things.
  • braintumor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Hip Hop/Rap was a nice form of art back in the 80s when it was mostly about the music. I still love to listen to public enemy etc.

    But today every stupid idiot can be a hip-hop/rap superstar (just look at 50 cents), just sing the lyrics u get from the label (that are more extrem than any other mainstream "artists", to get some attention), produce a video with the most whores, the newest and most expensive cars and the most bling bling in it and do like u are the most dangerous guy on this planet ... and there u go ... got yourself a gangster rap image and stupid people and teens will love u.
    And this is going on for years now, it is really getting boring with all these (wannabe) gangster rappers ...

    Thats what it is mostly about today, it's not anymore about the music, its just an image thing. Fans will like you because of the artists image and nothing else.

    OK ... there are still very good hip-hop/rap artists out there today, but they are not getting the media attention.
    • MrFlesh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Like Chris Rock said

      "Rappers arn't hardcore, they arn't thugs. The real thugs are doing 10-20 for murder. Rappers are getting lawyers and agents. That's not hard."
    • Jacobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I think you hit the nail on the head. Hip-Hop isn't about the music anymore, at least not where mainstream is concerned. I hardly ever listen to the radio now, but when I do the songs I hear don't make me feel...anything. And that is across the board with rap, emo-rock, pop, whatever. Everything has just been streamlined and commercialized.

      There are a lot of songs in classic rock, like Pink Floyd's "Dazed and Confused", that speak to your soul. The same thing happened for me in hip-hop from 88-94 or so. There was music out there that actually spoke to you. So now I just mainly listen to my old school stuff to recapture that feeling, like Peter Rock and CL Smooth. There is good stuff out there, but it definitely isn't going to be on the radio.
  • giveer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Leaving everything idiosyncratic about hip-hop aside -- The one thing I'll never get around, is we're talking about fans who, for some utterly illogical and brain-dead reason, not only didn't ostracize, but continued to give R. Kelly, the minor-raping, teen girl pissing pedophile he is, a career - a multi-million dollar career at that. If R. Kelly was just some dick who worked at Dunkin' Donuts, he'd be busy fending off Thor, his butt-pluggin cell mate by now.

    I gave up on hiphop fans after that.
    • dkm201, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3R. Kelly isn't a hip hop artist you *****, he's an R&B singer. He sang hooks on like two songs. His only fans are women.

      And what do you mean idiosyncratic? Did you mean idiotic? YOU ARE RETARDED DIE DIE DIE
    • giveer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Sue me for not dissecting various artist genres that all sound like garbage in the first place. You got me there.

      However, on flat out intelligence, I actually MEANT idiosyncratic. Look it up. It's a real word. Sorry if it's too big for you.
      Mind you, I'm not surprised you know what "idiotic" means. Thank you for accurately maintaining the stereotype of your age. Stay in school *****.
  • TDR25, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4Hip Hop is dead, and White Suburban teenagers killed it...as well as sorry ghetto bastards that sold it out to the highest bidder.
    • MrFlesh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3WTF are you talking about that ***** has been marketed to the white suburban kid since the word go. With a few exceptions. Why? Cause every black person in the country could quit listening to the ***** and it would still sell millions....why do you think no one talks about the real ghetto and comming from it. Ghetto is just a word that rearrirms how hard they are.
  • chartsandgraphs, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Just get everything El-P has ever been involved with. You'll reconsider that statement. The Cold Vein, Fantastic Damage, I'll Sleep When You're Dead, and basically everything on his label Definitive Jux.
    • bendedavis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Agreed. I just recently got Fantastic Damage and bought ISWYD last week. Amazing stuff. I think a big part of good rap is production. Anything produced by El-P, Danger Mouse, Dan the Automator, Ant (Atmosphere) is good stuff. I'm really looking forward to the new Del Tha Funkee Homosapien album which I believe is coming out this year, also new Sage Francis should be great.
  • xSEED, on 10/12/2007, -7/+1it sucks and it's all the same
  • DexDoomsday, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2shadowsa, fatbyjhnsn,quomen, seefresh, abbott75,fiftyeggs, mrkakka, jazzmine, orientis, fs77, fatbyjhnsn, resprung, munky100, MrSpookyPants, interrelate, & yensed(I'm sure there'll be more). I was gonna curse out all of you at once, instead I'll use a quote, "It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." - Ben Franklin

    blaze03- if you still listen to radio, you've got no real idea of what's what in the industry

    I say bury this article, it doesn't even know what Hip-Hop is. But, then again most people on here don't know either!

    “Hip hop has nothing to do with rap. Rap is an element. There is a consciousness that makes you rap, graffiti or break, for example.” KRS-One

    • Arakcheev, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2We should bury you for being a lame fanboy.
    • fatbyjhnsn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Look man, I do know what I'm talking about. I love hip hop. Read the article.
  • Shanobi, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1It'd be interesting if there were a way to know what genre of music is the most pirated, because in theory one could hypothosize that mainstream hip hop is all about promoting criminal behavior, which *might* mean that rap has the most musical theft.

    And if criminal behavior is the downfall of subversive music that promotes criminality, then that is the ultimate irony.

    No matter what, hopefully it goes away soon. I'm sick of seeing little kids try to be thugs...
    • bunnybash, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7i agree, i work as a youth worker in Australia, every single kid i work with is very white, yet they all think they are thugs, having a 11 year old who has never seen a gun say "i'm gonna pop a cap in your ***** ass" makes me laugh every time...

      but the whole trying to be a gangsta thing gets really old after awhile, especially when they have never even met an African American!!! (i lived in LA for 4 years, so i have had the privilege)

      if these kids are going to pretend to be something, why cant they pretend to be an astronaut or a lumberjack or something interesting? Why must they ALL choose to pretend to be an african american with a bad education?
    • klaymen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1seems it would be difficult to meet an _african_ _american_ in australia
  • marjo9, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2this is just referring to the mainstream radio *****, i didn't even know people considered that hip hop...
    id consider it more like some mcdonald's rap
  • redrory, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Hip Hop was dieing until people like Lupe came along.


    Also a DuggMirror would be nice
  • TheCheeks, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3If you want the real hiphop, check my Last.fm profile.

    http://www.last.fm/user/thecheeks/
  • KalElVZ, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1@glenjamin - could you tell me which Atmosphere album I should dl? I see like, 5 up and don't know which would be considered their best.
    • glenJammin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Start with 'Overcast!'... 'God Loves Ugly' and 'Sad Clown Bad Dub 2' are also worthy of a first choice, but Atmosphere's one band that really has no bad albums... Slug has formed a new group named Felt where he raps along with Murs... They have two albums that are excellent. They have a myspace page with downloads (www.myspace.com/atmosphere) Listen to Dirty Girl.
    • gall0249, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0A lot of people don't list Seven's Travels up there for best Atmosphere album, but I can't understand why. That album can be listened to front to back (skipping 1 or 2 tracks). You've got (just off the top of my head)
      Trying to Find a Balance
      Reflections
      Shoes
      National Disgrace
      Denvermolorado
      Good Times
      Always coming Back Home
      and Shhhhh.

      Great Album
    • senseigmg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Definitely pick up Slug & Murs' Felt EP; listen to "The Two" and try to not repeat the song 50 times because you'll love it that much. Also Brother Ali's Shadows on the Sun is a dope album.
  • malavalla, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1no one knows paper like i know paper
  • loki440, on 10/12/2007, -7/+10Hip hop is dying because the music is so ***** formulaic. I feel like I've heard the same song for the last fifteen years. Here's the formula to 80% of all hip-hop:

    1. Claim you're the world's best MC. Your claim should include boasts of sexual prowess or physical toughness (preferably both)
    2. State that all other MCs are either substandard or homosexual. Threatening violence is ok.
    3. Reference your high net worth.
    4. Describe in detail the material goods your high net worth affords you.
    5. Include at least one reference to a club. Make sure it contains the words "Cristal" and "VIP" .
    6. Don't forget the bitches in the club. As a rule of thumb, if there's no bitches, it's not hip-hop.
    7. Describe how the bitches are impressed with either: a) the size of your financial estate, b) the size of your *****, or c) both.
    8. Brag about how your large______ enabled you to have sexual relations with the bitches and then send them packing.
    9. Reiterate your claim as being the world's best MC.
    10. Give a shoutout to your producer.

    Done. I'm going to send this to 50 Cent. He'll probably use it as is...

    • bunnybash, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Hell yeah!!!!

      11. Reference the number of times you have suffered bodily harm, this establishes your credibility as a musician, the number of scars is a direct indication of your ability to make music of a high caliber.
    • Arakcheev, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Beautiful
    • nestafett, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1He, you just posted that earlier
    • loki440, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@nestafett

      yeah the second time was an accident.
  • vinnievivace, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5cant believe no-ones dropped MF Doom, Quasimodo (and both their various aliases) in the mix. but yes, El-P is also the ***** business. ***** hip hop, long live rap... i dont give a damn, to me they are very different beasts
    • TheCheeks, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1someone did. danger doom.
    • adarkmethod, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1yeah, i totally covered that, didnt wanna be redundant and say it again
  • DexDoomsday, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13''Rap is something you do; hip-hop is something you live.'' KRS-One
    • fatbyjhnsn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Saw KRS speak a couple years ago. Inspiring.
    • ostracize, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1That sounds like a Bono soundbite:
      "There is, though, a huge difference in the end between pop and rock. It's something to do with pop telling you that everything is okay, and rock telling you it isn't. Rock music says you can change the world -- the world inside your head, the world inside the room, and even the world outside the room. Pop music says, 'Why bother? Everything's okay.'..."
  • uniks, on 10/12/2007, -3/+0it's the drumming down of America from wack rappers like game jim jones chingy any of the top rapper right now dont worry wu-tang's album should drop soon
    • daza, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1The Game has released some stunning mixtapes and has done some really creative ***** with his disses. Not to mention two great studio albums. Just listen to You Know What It Is Vol. 3 or go watch Stop Snitchin', Stop Lyin'. Really, he has dedication and motivation. Don't like his mainstream stuff? Fine.. but his mixtapes are on spot..
  • DeskFlyer, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Here's how today's mainstream 'hip hop' (rap) gets made:

    1) Record ten samples of various digital sounds/beats four measures long and put them onto individual tracks.
    2) Loop the 4 measures appx. sixty times while activating and cutting various tracks at specified intervals.
    3) Rap about bitches, hoes, money, bling, murder, and drugs in barely intelligible sentences for the entire duration.
    4) Profit.
  • adarkmethod, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@ kurisuko: I didnt say it made them good. I said i like them, and they're metal.

    and @ ohgr: firstly, you need a new name, ohgr is a great artist and you disgrace the name. secondly, your ignorance to good hip hop has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the talent of those artists, why dont you stop being a dumbass and check out google or myspace. Its really simple, put in some of those names.. hit search. Listen. Then you can make informed commentary on this topic. Until you do that, your opinion on the matter doesnt mean ***** because you dont know ***** all about that which you speak.
    • ohgr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Ok I've read your complaint, and guess what? I don't care.
  • YuriSakazaki, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1Buried. Also, it's amazing how opinionated and misinformed a lot of these comments are... saying a musical form is dead because of a few artists that you personally don't like is just stupid. Music is based on personal preference, and if a ton of people like something for what it is, whatever that may be, why do you have to get so upset about it? Let people listen to what they want, no one likes being told that their music is dumb, and they're dumb for listening to it.
  • morel42, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2
    It's because nobody really cares if :

    You have bling
    How much of said bling you have
    How you're "livin the rich life"
    How much you "luv yo dogs"
    How you "pimp da Bitches out all night long dawg"
    How you show love to your old community by drivin around in "one hundred thousand dolla car's yo!"

    99% of everything in Rap / Hiphop videos and "songs" are totally pathetic and disgusting..

    Lemme pimp your momma out and see how much of a "fly dope jiggy bitch seadoggie" she is..

    /sigh

  • omigulay, on 10/12/2007, -10/+1because it's not REAL HIPHOP
    gangster rap is garbage
    thanks alot NWA and Public Enemy!
  • lowerlogic, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2Me, I just don't care about hip hop. It's not evil or immoral. It just doesn't matter.

    Why listen to hip hop when you can listen to 80s, acoustic, bit pop, chip hop, classic rock, dance, dark electro, dark wave, death rock, ebm, electronic, ethereal, future pop, goa, gothic, grunge, happy hardcore, hard rock, heavy metal, house, indie, industrial, metal, nerdcore, new wave, progressive rock, psytrance, punk, rock, symphonic metal, synth pop, techno, trance, etc?

    Unfortunately, once internet radio is shut down (Damn the CRB), we will again be limited normal radio which usually only plays the "top 40" of classic rock, rock, hip hop, rap, classical music, and a few other genres.
    • Arakcheev, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2HAI GUYS CHECK OUT MAI GENRES!


      I love how you just made this into a "what's on my ipod" post.
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