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Neal Boortz: Teachers Unions Are 'Much More Dangerous’ Than Al Qaeda

thinkprogress.org — [VIDEO] Last night on Fox News, right-wing radio host Neal Boortz stated, "Look, Al Qaeda, they could bring in a nuke into this country and kill 100,000 people with a well-placed nuke somewhere. Ok. We would recover from that. It would be a terrible tragedy, but the teachers unions in this country can destroy a generation."

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  • shawnfassett, on 10/12/2007, -98/+35Your authoritative conservatives at work. God bless the fuhrer!
    • hbweb500, on 10/12/2007, -47/+66@SnipeHack

      That may be the case in the rarest of cases. I know of several local instances where teachers have been fired instantaneously when found to be having relationships with students.

      The truth is, teachers are employees too, just like police officers and firefighters. People assume that people in these occupations are devoted completely to helping others, and, for that reason, they don't need special compensation. I think the wages in these areas should be higher than they are, and thats what teachers unions were created for.

    • Neo189, on 10/12/2007, -32/+193When I first saw the title, I was like "WTF?", but the more I think about it, the more I'm beginning to agree with Boortz on this. Our nation is truly ***** if we don't improve the education system, and we've already begun to see the effects of this, just think about how many idiots there are on Digg alone.
    • Neo189, on 10/12/2007, -48/+13Ummm...by idiots, I meant, like, the 10% of diggers who make posts that generate -564 diggs, and who everybody summarily blocks. 9/11 conspiracy spam, anyone?
    • KlayBorg, on 10/12/2007, -50/+25I believe, that some of these rules are rediculous. but the need for unions are still paramount. This is another case of unions steadily being killed out in society. Its happening in australia too. Effectively ruining job security and any power the employee has. This allows the employer to treat teh employee any way they want, and when job avaliability becomes low, this results in a incredibly competitive market, resulting in steadily lower pay.
    • ufia, on 10/12/2007, -26/+6Think of the children!
    • nebrfan, on 10/12/2007, -38/+82In re: to the comments above about teachers salary, According to the American Federation of Teachers, the avg. salary for *9 MONTHS* of work is $46,597 - which, when extrapolated to the 12 months that everyone else has to work is the equivalent of over *$62,000* - not bad for a 4 year degree and 8-4 workdays and guaranteed holidays.
    • CopperFalcon, on 10/12/2007, -42/+16@shawnfassett

      I find it amazing that someone who stands up for education is getting dugg down. Of course, considering how many Bush-worshipers are on Digg, perhaps I shouldn't.
    • whalefarmerjohn, on 10/12/2007, -27/+61@Nerbfan

      That's the average salary. That includes people who have doctorates and people who have been working as teachers for decades as well as the entry level workers. If teaching was so lucrative, why do we have a nationwide teacher shortage?
    • AJH16, on 10/12/2007, -15/+76@hbweb500

      The problem isn't the concept of teachers having a union to promote fair labor practices. The problem is when that union starts to hold the education of our youth hostage with unrealistic demands like not allowing teachers who don't measure up or care to be fired. The result is that a large percentage (probably higher than 50% in my experience) of teachers just don't give a crap about their job. They are their to collect a pay check, know that they can't be fired, in some cases even for gross neglegance, and therefore don't have any work ethic or care if they are screwing an entire generation. Any union that cares at all about their profession would kick people like this out in a heart beat, but instead most teachers unions seem to embrace and protect this scum.
    • DigiRaven, on 10/12/2007, -20/+64He has a point. The teacher unions are a abomination to the students. Hence education SUCKS in the US until college. No need to disagree with him on every subject since he is conservative. That's ignorant.

      Watch the special from 20/20 on stupid america. Good points which I happen to agree with 100%
    • okeemike, on 10/12/2007, -8/+16@KlayBorg

      It's spelled r-i-d-i-c-u-l-o-u-s

      Sheesh...
    • texpundit, on 10/12/2007, -22/+77"If teaching was so lucrative, why do we have a nationwide teacher shortage?"

      Because the NEA and teachers' unions have locked down the certification process for teachers so tight that you could have great natural teaching skills, or even teaching experience (say...instructor in the military) coupled with long term real world experience....and they STILL won't let you be a teacher until you go through their 4+ year college certification course, which requires you to regurgitate their point of view, teaching methods and talking points.

      THAT is why there is a shortage of good teachers.
    • johnnyappleseed, on 10/12/2007, -24/+60No offense, but I don't know too many teachers that work 8 to 4. I know some that work 7AM to 7PM Monday through Friday. Some even longer hours. And that doesn't count the work that they take home on the weekends. There are many jobs where you can leave your work at work and teaching is not one of them. And yes, they are salaried employees, but when they're doing as much work if not more than "typical corporate employees" they are in no way well paid.

      Citizens are very uneducated as to what Teachers actually do and how much work and effort goes into their job. Everyone hears about the horrible teachers and unfortunately uses those examples as a frame of reference. Unless you have a close friend, relative, or loved one who is a teacher, most people think "8-4 Monday through Friday and summers off. That's easy!"

      Teacher's Unions keep the bad teachers in school as much as lawyers get idiot fired corporate employees big settlement pay offs (Maybe an exaggeration, but you get the point). In most office setting it's difficult to outright fire an employee. HR has to build a case, document the employees every move and mistake, and this is a process that does not happen overnight.
    • alpinweiss88, on 10/12/2007, -13/+64@nebrfan

      My wife used to be a teacher. She never worked less than 50 hours a week. 8-4? huh? Try 7:00 - 4:30, and that was just the time spent in the school. Not to mention that you never get any time to yourself, and you can't ever go out to lunch. (small things, but you don't notice them until you don't have them) There was also all of the work she had to put in for preparation of classes, grading assignments, the weekend and after-school activities. The field trips. Preparing for parent-teacher conferences, which lasted 3 days. Having parents call our house in the evenings and weekends. Summer programs, which have to be planned out and run - so no 9 month work-year there. There were also required continued education conferences that usually took up an entire weekend. And she has 2 Masters degrees.

      She was teaching at a private school, so maybe it is different in the public school system. But teaching is certainly NOT an easy job, especially if you are good at it. Maybe some teachers sit back and do the minimum it takes, but there are certainly good teachers out there who work a hell of a lot harder at a much harder job than most people have. I find it amazing that people don't blink when some CEO gets paid millions of dollars, and a hard-working teacher who is educating our children gets railed on for making a somewhat decent wage.
    • jcounterman, on 10/12/2007, -18/+42OK, so I've seen both ends of the spectrum when it comes to teachers unions. In Ohio, where, I used to live, they almost shut down my high school to go on strike. Why? Because a teacher fresh out of school made $21,000 per year, and a teacher who had been there for 30+ years made $33,000. The district (and at the root, the tax system) wasn't willing to fund the teachers, and you CANNOT blame the teachers in that instance for demanding fair pay.

      Now, in Houston, I haven't heard any issues with unions. They are more of a legal protection in case something unfair happens to a teacher (I wont go down the rat hole of defining "unfair"). They do not seem to be pushy, demanding, or threatening to strike at the drop of a hat. Why? Because a starting teacher makes $40,000. Once they get equal wages, they don't want to fight.

      I'm usually not pro-union, because many unions have simply become irresponsible and have hurt the economy (i.e. UAW). Teachers' unions, however, seem to stop with the demands once they are earning a decent living and have fair work practices.

      just my 2 cents.
    • unibomber999, on 10/12/2007, -21/+39There was a time and place for unions in this country. Now unions only serve to protect the incompetent and take money from the pockets of all teachers who are members.

      Privatization and market pressure would do more to increase teachers wages then unions could ever hope to accomplish. The only downside to the teachers in privitazation is that there would be clearly defined measurements for success. The upside is that if you are a motivated and successful individual, you could make far more than in the socialized, seniority based system.
    • killinger777, on 10/12/2007, -13/+54Neal Boortz is a smart guy and he doesn't tow any party line. He also said later in the interview that he supports legalizing drugs and prostitution.
    • jcounterman, on 10/12/2007, -26/+14but an all privatized system would leave the poor kids with crappy education and the rich kids with stellar teachers. In education, we need equal opportunity.
    • killinger777, on 10/12/2007, -14/+29Currently private schools operate far more efficiently than public schools with less money most of the time. Privatization would mean competition, which means better product at lower costs. Crappy schools would *need* to improve or they would go out of business.
    • jmoo, on 10/12/2007, -4/+29I'm going with what johnnyappleseed and alpinweiss88 posted, my wife certainly works longer than 8-4. She routinely brings work home and will spend hours on grading and creating her course work. Yes she has summers off, but for the last three years she taught summer school. And she does not make anywhere near 46,000, so much for the median.

      The one area that she would agree with is that under the unions, teachers have way too much protection once they reach tenure. Once they have 5 or so years in a school system they are nearly impossible to get rid of unless they do something really wrong. Its not that they have to be child molesters, they just have to be lazy or incompetent to cause plenty of damage.
    • noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -15/+9And when a school goes out of business, what then? Privatisation is a good idea at heart but there are a few details that need to be thought out.
    • killinger777, on 10/12/2007, -13/+21If a school goes out of business because all the kids leave and go to a better school? Who cares what happens to the school. They will be replaced by a school with a better business plan. And I don't buy the argument about poor kids not getting a fair shake. Our taxes would still be paying for the poor kids education, but our money would be put to much better use if the poor kid could take that money to a good school that is held accountable for their performance.
    • jcounterman, on 10/12/2007, -10/+2edit, bury
    • technogenius, on 10/12/2007, -5/+21While I think unions in general are a bad thing, the No Child Left Behind act is the major culprit. Teachers have no choice of what they teach. My fiancee is a fourth grade teacher in MD. From talking to her, teachers don't teach for kids to learn, they teach for kids to take tests.

      The teachers spend more time on collecting data and submitting it then they do planning fun lessons that will get the kids interested in learning. There's also some crazy racial quota's when it comes to special education. (this is from my fiancee's mother) For instance: a school in NY had a child that was an Asian Pacific Islander who had down syndrome, when they submitted that to the state--the state sent them a letter saying they were over their quota on special ed Asian Pacific Islanders. The state said they could only have 0.6 Asian Pacific Islanders in their special education program.

      While no child left behind benefits the poorest of the poor schools, it leaves the rest of the schools just out of hope
    • nsummy, on 10/12/2007, -17/+7Only in America can you actually say that KILLING 100,000 is better than having a generation of people not as smart as another country. If this is the case, why does anyone care about darfur? I'm sure their educational system isn't as good as ours, even without a teachers union!
    • Flooded, on 10/12/2007, -6/+21@nebrfan and any others in agreement with Boortz

      As the son of two teachers and a husband of another, I guarantee that educators are not compensated enough for what they do. They don't work 8am-3pm... try 7am to 5pm. And that doesn't include time spent at home grading papers and putting lesson plans together. It isn't just a September to May job either. Try late July to late June, which equate to about 3 weeks paid vacation. There is no overtime and very limited sick leave.

      Regarding incompetency and training...In my state, teachers are required to get 10 credit hours (read college credits) each year for re-certification. They are responsible for paying for those courses and do not get reimbursed. Any teacher that is unable to get those credits doesn't get re-certified. It takes a new teacher three years to get tenure - if they can't prove that they are effective in the classroom in that time, they are let go.

      Teaching is a difficult job. Not only do teachers have to attempt to educate their students, they also have a hand in RAISING the child... There are many parents that do not take an active enough role in raising their children and this must be dealt with at school, usually in the form of discipline problems and bad behavior. It's funny how parents are never responsible for the problems their kids get into at school, rather it is 'the system'.

      As the cliche goes, walk a mile in their shoes before you decide they are over compensated and ruining a generation of children. As with any industry or field, there are going to be some bad apples - those are the ones that will make it on the nightly news. The ones you don't hear about are the ones that inspire kids to become astronauts or concert pianists.
    • DrDigg, on 10/12/2007, -9/+19My wife makes $30,000 with 9 years of teaching experience. She works 50+ hours a week. She buys clothes for her students who have holes in their shoes, and yes she is a union member.

      Hey Boortz to paraphrase "The American President"

      You want a character debate? You better stick with me, 'cause my wife is way out of your league.
    • shadus, on 10/12/2007, -5/+17> In re: to the comments above about teachers salary, According to the American Federation of Teachers,
      > the avg. salary for *9 MONTHS* of work is $46,597 - which, when extrapolated to the 12 months that
      > everyone else has to work is the equivalent of over *$62,000* - not bad for a 4 year degree and 8-4
      > workdays and guaranteed holidays.

      That's a complete ***** number where I live, our starting wage for teachers is 23k (I'm living with one.) and she won't be over 30k until she's worked for close to 10 years. That might be the starting pay for a teacher in downtown LA... but in most of the country there is no chance of making close to that.
    • killinger777, on 10/12/2007, -6/+17Starting salaries by state:
      http://www.aft.org/salary/2003/download/2003Table2.pdf

      A few years old. How did this turn into an argument about pay? I am not saying teachers should be payed less or more here. But consider that private school teachers typically get paid less than public school teachers, yet the education recieved is typically far better.
    • DrDigg, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15My wife has taught at private school and public school (and made more money in private school) and my mother has been a teacher and principal in private school for the last 28yrs. The real reason that private school education can sometimes be better is because of parent involvement. Now I know there are some bad teachers, but it is time for people to take a good look at parent involvement in schools and their kids lives.

      BTW if you look at public schools in affluent areas they frequently are just as good if not better than private schools.
    • spyyder, on 10/12/2007, -12/+5Why should teacher a make more money, when there have been ABSOLUTELY NO PERFORMANCE INCREASES in the last 30 YEARS. Test scores are down, more students are failing or dropping out, fewer students are pursuing a college education, and the US in general lags behind other nations in math and science. Why should teacher get paid more for making no improvements in education?? No one seems to want to address this. If teacher want more money, THEN EARN IT. Let see more students going to IVY schools, lets see more students graduating, lets see SAT score rise, lest see higher GPA's, lets see more scholarly students. Then you can have your money.
    • bigdavediode, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7Killinger:

      >But consider that private school teachers typically get paid less than public school teachers, yet the education recieved is typically far better.

      Well Killinger, you didn't give a cite for the first part of your statement, and the second part according to the Economist magazine is probably false.

      "Analyzing raw data from the 2000 National Assessment of Educational Progress for 28,000 fourth- and eighth-graders representing more than 1,300 public and private schools, Mrs. Lubienski, whose research focuses on equity issues in math education, was surprised by what she was seeing. When children of similar socioeconomic status were compared, the public school children scored higher."



      http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0510/p11s01-legn.html
    • VTmruhlin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@nebrfan "the avg. salary for *9 MONTHS* of work is $46,597 - which, when extrapolated to the 12 months ... 8-4 workdays"

      The good teachers actually do a lot over summer, like checking out new textbooks, taking more classes for certification, etc. Ideally, their job description should expect them to come into the office and do this stuff all summer to ensure quality (and raise salaries accordingly).
      The 8-4 workday idea is inaccurate when you account for the fact that they have to write tests and grade homework. Again, the crappy teachers use book tests and grade during class time, but the decent ones spend a lot of time outside of class dealing with that stuff.

      /Course the crappy teachers are the ones the unions are "protecting", but they're not the only ones who are being underpaid. The problem with unions is that they stick up for the slackers too, when they should focus their resources towards paying the good teachers a decent salary.
    • bigdavediode, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Spyder:

      >Why should teacher a make more money, when there have been ABSOLUTELY NO PERFORMANCE INCREASES in the last 30 YEARS.

      I don't know about the last 30 years, but according to EVS the reason is that you just made up facts to fit your beliefs. Here is reality:

      "SAT scores have risen over the past 20 years, even as the number of test takers has grown tremendously and the proportion of minority students taking the test has increased from 31 percent in 1994 to 37 in 2004."
    • CBTF, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9A lot of people don't seem to know what they're talking about. Education isn't a one sided thing, you can't say teachers don't deserve X amount of pay because kids aren't getting any smarter. There are huge influences like home life as well to take into consideration.

      nebrfan, you make a lot of assumptions. Teaching isn't an 8-4 job. It's not uncommon for teachers to be getting to work at 7:30 or earlier. Many stay late after school to mark work, prepare lessons or help out with after school activities. There are also report cards to write. As someone who's worked as a TA, I can tell you that teachers do a lot of marking at home as well (high school teachers can get up to 90 essays to read and mark). The "two months off in the summer" isn't exactly true- teachers go in earlier to set up their classrooms, etc. There are also courses that many teachers take in the summer to boost their certification. You also have to go out of your way to speak with parents or prepare educational plans for those with special needs.

      I live in Canada, so i'm not sure about the states, but it isn't just a "4 year degree" thing either. Here, teachers are required to attend teacher's college for 2 years after earning their degree.

      Besides, teaching HS in the states takes some balls from what i've heard. The kids aren't exactly friendly, depending on where you are.
    • jmoo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Replying to Flooded comments-

      I don't know how it work in other place in the country but in Indiana where my wife teaches its only been recently that the teachers have to get college credit to get re-certificated and the reviews of teachers during their first 5 years (time to become tenured in Indiana) had been a joke. Teacher with 10 years or more have basically been grandfathered in and will not have to go thru as much work to stay certified.

      But I do think its improving, my wife had to go thru a lot during her first three years with getting her teachers certificate. Hopefully this will filter out a lot of people who shouldn't be teaching. My wife still sees a big problem with some of the older teachers. Teacher that have 15 to 20 years in and just don't care any more. I guess they are just burnt out, I would think that after teaching a bunch of young punks year after year I would be to. But all the more reason to get them out and get some young blood in.
    • yves, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6boortz is not a conservative...
    • Flooded, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3@jmoo

      Teachers here have been required to do this for quite some time and I think it helps weed out the individuals that don't have the desire to teach or improve their teaching skills. My wife had a rough first year and didn't get her job back. She had a desire to teach though, and got more training and is now in her 3rd year at a different school. Hopefully she'll get tenure this year.

      I completely agree re: teacher burnout. Some of the teachers my wife works with, do, I think, have a negative affect on their students. Perhaps it has to do with increasing behavior problems, No Child Left Behind or a mandated curriculum. Whatever their problem is, it doesn't help the kids. School districts are starting to offer early retirement to get some of these individuals out of the system and get some new blood in. The state is also tinkering with the idea of forgiving student loan debts for new teachers.

    • afpunk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9The public school system sucks, yes. I don't see why the fingers are being pointed at the teachers though, unless you're completely ignorant as to how public schools work. Do you have any idea what kind of crap is forced on teachers by administrators, school boards, and the federal and state governments? Teachers aren't allowed to design a curriculum. They're not allowed to use old teaching methods that worked in favor of experimental methods whose creators pay money to the district to try them out. In grade school, they are only allowed to teach for standardized tests, which are complete ***** and focus on math and reading/english, so grade school kids don't even have science and social studies classes anymore. Not to mention in public school, most of the parents are frankly worthless in caring about their childrens future. My mother, who is a public school teacher nearing retirement age and has seen everything go downhill in her tenure, had, out of 25 students, ZERO parents show up recently for parent-teacher conferences.

      You wonder why private schools do a better job of teaching kids? Those are the reasons. Blaming unions is just an exercise in ignorance.
    • GabrielS, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@digiraven

      I agree, the 20/20 special is must viewing. Stossel's report is excellent. Sure, the streetside teacher comments are probably cherry picked, but I've walked into many schools in different parts of the country to observe precisely the same talking points.
    • TKDWILSON, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I don't see how anyone can disagree with that statement, and I am a teacher. Teachers can forever change our country for the better or for the worst. I am probably not going to join the union next year and just get insurance coverage through someone else.

      Eric Wilson
    • pwill, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@nebrfan
      My mom is a teacher, and she makes $35K/yr. She also goes to work at 7AM, comes home at 5, except on Tuesdays and Thursdays when she tutors until 6. That's 54 hours/week, and I can guarantee you don't work that much. She also does at least two hours of work at home each night, with grading papers and making lesson plans.
      Also, she has more than a "4 year degree". She has 2 masters degrees, and 2 bachelor's degrees.
      People like you make me sick. You know nothing about the profession.
    • returnofmalv, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2It's the socialist nations which have the best K-12 education systems.

      "Currently private schools operate far more efficiently than public schools with less money most of the time. Privatization would mean competition, which means better product at lower costs. Crappy schools would *need* to improve or they would go out of business."

      Private schools are even more subject to the scrutiny of the parents. Unless you believe that most parents know what's best for their kids, it could not work on any large scale.
    • KlayBorg, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Look everyone, I am not promoting what the teachers union has done. However, there is still a dire need for unions in our society.
    • paradexes, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Let's see the comparison here....100,000 dead and therefore unable to speak their opinions and live their lives and learn and possibly even have the ability to change their minds and maybe political affiliation. Yea we can recover from that /saracsm.

      Teachers unions whether good OR bad is not even in the same ballpark...hell its not even on the same friggin planet as a "terrorist" blowing up a nuke and killing 100,000 people. If anyone is a terrorist it's FOX. The word implies....ahh screw it here is the Webster definition of Terror. The root word of terrorism.

      Main Entry: ter·ror
      Pronunciation: 'ter-&r, 'te-r&r
      Function: noun
      Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French terrour, from Latin terror, from terrEre to frighten; akin to Greek trein to be afraid, flee, tremein to tremble -- more at TREMBLE
      1 : a state of intense fear
      2 a : one that inspires fear : SCOURGE b : a frightening aspect c : a cause of anxiety : WORRY d : an appalling person or thing; especially : BRAT
      3 : REIGN OF TERROR
      4 : violent or destructive acts (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands
      synonym see FEAR

      Fox seems to be working on the first 3 parts of the definition. The other news networks are more focused on Britney spears and Sinead Oconnor look or Anna Nicole Smith that they wont even cover the important things.
    • TKDWILSON, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1""""""@nebrfan
      My mom is a teacher, and she makes $35K/yr. She also goes to work at 7AM, comes home at 5, except on Tuesdays and Thursdays when she tutors until 6. That's 54 hours/week, and I can guarantee you don't work that much. She also does at least two hours of work at home each night, with grading papers and making lesson plans.
      Also, she has more than a "4 year degree". She has 2 masters degrees, and 2 bachelor's degrees.
      People like you make me sick. You know nothing about the profession."""""""""

      Yeah, she doesn't have to work that much for her job, she chooses to. I think a lot of teachers are a little bit of perfectionists about the way things are done. I work about 40 hours a week as a teacher and I do a great job. I make close to $40 a year and this is my first year teachingI only work 185 days a year and I get 9 sick/vacation days a year. It doesn't need to be as bad as everyone says. Plus you get to work with students with is a big plus for all good teachers.


      Eric Wilson
  • mightydavefish, on 10/12/2007, -44/+21It figures that these are the people the right wing loves. These assholes are doing everything they can to turn America against rational thought and intelligent people.
    Fox news is a blight on America.
    The GOP is showing that what it really wants from American schools is a barely literate minimum wage worker who doesn't question authority.
    It's pathetic that every voice of reason in America is labeled "terrorist" by the right wing traitors.
    • Ninja337, on 10/12/2007, -19/+24The Democrats do the same thing, except they import them from Mexico, and keep African Americans down to keep them financially dependent on the Democratic Party. Instead of putting more money into schools like the No Child Left Behind plan, they want more socialist principals, like shoving money down people's throats. Keep minorities uneducated, keep them checking xxxxxx Clinton or xxxxx Kennedy at the ballot. This is why more Mexicans are switching to the Republican Party. In the 2004 Election the percentage of Mexicans voting Republican went up from 36% in 2000 to 44% (I forget if this is only New Mexico or in the entire country).
    • unibomber999, on 10/12/2007, -9/+20Ninja,
      You are completely correct about the Democratic party. There is nothing that minorities should fight harder against than the notion that they deserve a slightly larger portion of table scraps. The systemic racism today is nothing compared to what it was 30 years ago and there are plenty of opportunities for educated people of all races. The inner-city school systems are what is really failing them and the fight needs to be taken up at the city and state levels.
  • jstohler, on 10/12/2007, -44/+15I actually know someone who takes Boortz seriously. He's a *****.
    • brokekneck, on 10/12/2007, -17/+17What does that make you?
    • TinMan, on 10/12/2007, -11/+9I believe that would make him someone who knows a "*****".
  • appleann1, on 10/12/2007, -13/+58Boortz is a Libertarian.
    • populist, on 10/12/2007, -38/+18boortz is a government loving pig.

      always getting it wrong. and neal, you've done it again. he blames the average people, the teachers, rather than the SYSTEM of government run education in this country. the problem isn't the people, it's the government ruling over us. it's the government that gives us schools that hardly teach the bill of rights. it's the government that gives us schools which teach our children to be "good citizens"....

      that's the problem.
    • okeemike, on 10/12/2007, -6/+14No, Boortz is a Libertarian.

      Look it up: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/libertarian
    • smartalecvt, on 10/12/2007, -23/+6In my experience "libertarian" is a code-word for fascist.
    • Zera, on 10/12/2007, -6/+17> Boortz is a Libertarian.

      Alot of Libertarians would debate that. He does call himself Libertarian, but Boortz is all over the place. Some of the things he says are so ridiculous, so opposite of Libertarian views that I wonder if he is actually just attempting to undermine the world's view of Libertarians through his actions.

      Edit: E.G. 'smartalecvt' things Libertarians are synonymous with fascism. LOL Misinformation about Libertarians is everywhere. Sad.
    • texpundit, on 10/12/2007, -4/+17Boortz is a Libertarian by his own word, but he's gradually kicked himself into more of a NeoLibertarian corner with his tenacious support of the Iraq conflict and his embracing of the Right's (and Left's) idea of military interventionism and expansionism and "democracy spreading."
    • subgeniusd, on 10/12/2007, -6/+12I agree with most of the above comments re: Boortz and his libertarian status. I live in Atlanta (his home base) and hear him from time to time. He is a professional mouthpiece for the RNC propaganda mill (that's Republican National Committee for our overseas friends) with a few libertarian positions that distinguish him from the rest of the crowd.

      He is opposed to the war on drugs.
      He favors gay marriage rights, more or less.
      He is opposed to bans on abortion.
      He preaches smaller govt and reduced taxes.

      But he is still very chummy with Big Brother reactionaries who mislabel themselves "conservative" and publically supports most things Republican and blames every problem imaginable on those dreaded liberals.

      The Libertarian Party is a mixed bag with a few guiding and unifying principles. I'm a registered, card carrying member and I don't like Boortz very much and wish he would never mention the L word again. I even signed a petition to have him banned as a speaker at the National Convention--although of course free to attend and run his big mouth privately if he wishes.

      He also makes large charitable contributions. He's not a total jerk but sure comes close. He certainly undermines our efforts to spread the Libertarian message.
    • BabyWookie, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4Libertarians = Republicans who like to smoke weed and ***** around
    • jstohler, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3If he is, he's the lamest, dumbest, most Bush-ass-licking libertarian ever.
  • remove, on 10/12/2007, -12/+33Reminds me of that time when Bush's Secretary of Education called the the largest teachers' union in America a "terrorist organization."
  • eboskie1, on 10/12/2007, -22/+67The teacher union is a disgrace and should be evaluated again. I say if a teacher sucks at his/her job they should be fired, well as it is now it is very hard to fire a teacher that is no good at teaching. I read an article about how the union fought to keep some teacher on after he did some stuff with a kid that he wasn't suppose to, took 6 freekin years to get the guy fired because the union backed him up. Screw the union.
    • fasda, on 10/12/2007, -19/+37You know what I am sick and tired of people thinking that just being in the union will keep you from being fired. My mother went back to work as a high school teacher and taught chemistry in a rich township. Over the course of the school year she had to fail several of her students because they were morons and couldn't write a lab report to save their lives and did worse then my younger sister who was 2 years younger then the students on a basic skills test. At the end of the year parents clamored for her to be fired for failing their kids and got their way. the union's power pails in comparison to parents will if they want someone fired they do not last long.
    • MrBrenner, on 10/12/2007, -26/+19@eboskie

      Certainly, screw the union. Screw the "powerful" bargaining collective which allows its professionals to make far less than equally educated peers. Screw the only hope honest educators have at legal protection when a student makes false accusations. Screw the professional organization which regularly organizes workshops to helps its members better their practice, thus bettering education as a whole in America.

      I read an article about how people make gross generalizations that misrepresent others.
    • pgoetz, on 10/12/2007, -22/+15I guess mrbrenner is being dugg down for using rational sarcasm on a thread that's obviously being dominated by right wing Bush disciples whose arguments against teachers' unions demonstrate a lack of spelling, grammar, or logical skills. I are aginst teechers unions two -- we don't need no stinkin edukashun -- jeezus tells me whut to do. Carry on Bush morons -- you're obviously right about everything.
    • Egoist, on 10/12/2007, -13/+5@fasda: So your mother was the supreme educator of your township, and every student who walked through her door was an idiot? At best, she was a bad teacher. At worst...
    • unibomber999, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4@mrbrenner
      What good is a union if the members are making far less than their peers? It sounds to me like the union is failing to make good on it's promises to the teachers. I think good teachers deserve far more then they are receiving in compensation these days and I don't think the unions are equipped to give it to them. The most they have accomplished is instituting a system that rewards seniority over skill and at mediocre pay rates. That doesn't sound like a recipe for success.
    • colklink, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6The problem with firing teachers (at least where I live) has nothing to do with unions. In many areas, schools simply can't find replacements for teachers so they can't afford to fire them (the exception to this I suppose is in the case of inappropriate behavior - there was a female teacher fired last year for giving out nude pictures of herself to her students for money). Furthermore, most teachers are hired on a year-to-year contract basis (at least in Texas). Thus, if the teacher messes up and you are afraid of firing them, you can simply not renew their contract for the next year.

      The other problem is that the school administrators and the school board are doing a terrible job managing the schools. In my wife's school, they have had 4 people leave this year in the math department alone either because they can't handle the students anymore (guns, drugs, physical violence - there was a dance instructor put in a neck brace last year after trying to break up a fight, etc) or they were offered better paying, less demanding jobs outside of teaching. With low salary compensation and horrible insurance benefits (at least in Texas) the schools can't find replacements. Instead of making the job more enticing to lure in new teachers, the school simply hired permanent substitutes that have no knowledge of the subject. These subs are basically baby-sitters and are not qualified or capable of properly teaching the kids the subject. So, these kids will go on to the next level of math having learned nothing and it will then become the next person's responsibility.

      Basically, there is no one person to blame for these issues. It would be easy to say that unions are the problem and that they let teachers get away with everything and so our kids don't learn in class, but the reality is that unions practically do nothing for teachers. If unions were really running the show, teachers would have excellent benefits and have strong job security. It's a combination of a poorly run, badly designed system that needs to be reworked from the ground up.

      The real problems in the education system don't come from the dedicated, hard-working individuals that drag themselves into what in some areas is practically a warzone everyday so that they can hopefully manage to make at least one person pay attention long enough to grasp a concept that they must know in order to pass a State mandated aptitude test. You need to look at the parents or much higher up the ladder of the education system.
  • teadrinker, on 10/12/2007, -12/+12Both are dangerous, but it is really idiotic to compare the two.
  • baalzebub, on 10/12/2007, -19/+39i agree with Neal Boortz on this issue, i think the school system should be completely privatized, those with children to educate should be able to choose the school they want...
  • WhiteRaven, on 10/12/2007, -15/+49Just to clarify Boortz's position. Al Qaeda is a visible, immediate threat while the teacher's unions are a subtle, long term effect.

    Taken from the point of view that the education system has an enormous influence on the course of a nation thru it's ability to indoctrinate youth, this is a reasonable observation. *If* you oppose collectivism and "progressive" causes, then yes, the teachers unions are just as big a threat as the drive to instill Sharia law in the west. Worse, people won't even notice it happening. At least people actually realize they don't want Islamic extremists to have their way. The socialistic values many desire to teach our children appears more friendly. Unfortunately it is every bit as contrary to liberty as radical Islam is.

    Socialism does to property rights and general self determination what Islamic law does to rights associated with individual moral choices (which is of course also self determination). Socialism is the more insidious of the two: it has a friendly face.
    • fasda, on 10/12/2007, -14/+4Well I feel that at least with our current system we get to know who has power and how they are using it to screw you. Since the only thing in life that are guaranteed besides death and taxes is that people are by nature evil and will screw you (possibly kill you). I came to this conclusion after an engineering course I took last semester when we talked about ethical obligations it came down to 1) Since during your life time your some choices and designs will most certainly kill people and that you should minimize where economically possible 2) how not to get fired. Any group that has power should always be distrusted a cooperation more so then a government because they are designed to get things done, have absolutely no accountability to anyone besides there share holders to whom they can just lie to anyway and are extremely short sighted. Were as the government is designed to get the least amount of work done and is responsible to anyone who can vote.
    • PABeachBum, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4It's been 5 years since 9/11, with no other attacks. In that time, scores of kids have gone from middle school, all the way to college. I'd say that's plenty of time to warp somebodies mind.
  • SwissCamel, on 10/12/2007, -8/+18It depends what he means by dangerous but by any definition of the word, technically he is right. Al Qaeda has little influence in anything in the west, and can have little detrimental impact on any aspect of Western life.

    Al Qaeda isn't THAT dangerous at all statistically. I am much more likely to be killed or injured walking up and down the stairs, driving in my car, climbing a ladder etc.
  • Itazura, on 10/12/2007, -25/+10More
    Militerry
    Less
    Skools
    • WhiteRaven, on 10/12/2007, -13/+29More education, less social engineering.
  • JBstrikesagain, on 10/12/2007, -22/+15The argument that Neal Boortz is trying to make is totally irrelevant because he compared the Teachers union to al queda/terrorists. Terrorism is the new boogey man like Communism was before. You might even say making a comparison or equation to terrorists is like comparing someone to Nazis or Hitler. Can I invoke Godwin's Law ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

    He lost all credibility when he compared them to terrorists. It's stupid stuff like this that makes me scared to think that people actually take these arguments seriously, that people listen to him, and Fox News and say to themselves "ya, that makes sense!"

    • WhiteRaven, on 10/12/2007, -18/+29No, it's no irrelevant, you just refuse to consider the meaning of what he is saying. The systematic indoctrination of the young being carried out in the nations public schools is creating a country of helpless, mindless sheep. Boortz is talking less about the terrorist methods employed by Islamists then he is about their ultimate goal: the supremacy of the Muslim religion and it's Sharia law in the world.

      The teachers unions are *more* dangerous than this in one sense and merely as dangerous in another. The loss of freedom that Sharia law represents and the brainwashing of our youth in government schools is more or less equally repugnant. The teachers unions are *more* dangerous because the progressivism they preach has a much friendlier face. It is insidious while Islamic fundamentalism is overtly threatening.

      jbstrikesagain, the fact that you do not understand what is being lost to the social engineering that takes place in our education system is evidence of just how dangerous it is. Islamic terrorism and it's ultimate goal of a world wide caliphate is like throwing a frog into boiling water... it knows what;s happening and will jump out. According to an old wives tale that I won't vouch for but I will use as a metaphor, if you place a frog in cool water and then bring it to a boil, it won't realize what is happening and will let itself cook. That is the threat teachers unions represent.

      I recall the virulent protests that took place in France when it was proposed that companies be allowed to fire employees under 25 (if I remember the particulars right). This kind of irrational sense of entitlement is just one aspect of the progressivism that our children are being indoctrinated with. Of course, in America, companies actually can fire people... so these poor children enter the real world totally unprepared for having real demands placed on them.

      Of course, there's a good chance that you think the progressivist indoctrination of students is a good thing.
    • LesterKing, on 10/12/2007, -12/+19@Whiteraven

      Nice rant.

      How is all of that diatribe the fault of a teacher's union? And how the Hell does this have anything to do with Sharia law? Are you really trying to imply that the Teacher's unions are actively indoctrinating the youth of America and trying to make them into "mindless sheep?" Come on, man, you've completely left the realm of credibility here. I know teachers, my mother and sister are teachers, I date a teacher, the idea that they and their union is trying to turn the youth of America into "mindless sheep" is nonsensical. Every teacher I've ever had anything to do with didn't want anything but the best for their students. Why don't you just calm down and analyze you and Neil Boortz' ideas rationally. It might help keep you from embarassing yourself with diatribes of this calibre.

      The fact is that until teachers begin to be paid a good salary we will always have ***** education. Hell, I would have been a teacher if I could support a family doing it. But you can't.

    • scubajim, on 10/12/2007, -9/+5@lesterking,
      The problem isn't salaries. That is a myth. If you doubled salaries the system wouldn't improve. We are spending 3X more on education (adjusted for inflation) now than in 1960. Are you saying that the youngsters are taught 3 times better than in 1960? No, a rather silly assertion. What we need is competition in education.Allow the money the government spends to follow the child. Whatever school the child goes to give that school the money. They do this in Europe with great sucess. The trouble is that program threatens the teacher's unions so they will spend millions of dollars defeating it. (and giving huge amounts of money to the Democratic party - which is why the Democrats fight it at every turn.)
    • LesterKing, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Scuba,

      Who cares about 1960? I'm referring to today and our future. I think that it's a pretty safe statement to say that if teachers were paid more, currently a teacher with a master's degree still makes less than $40k/year, more intelligent and more motivated people would become teachers, do you disagree?

      I understand your insinuation that we should privatize education, the problem is that it would recreate a class system much like what existed before the United States decided to make it a governmental responsibility. The rich people would go to the best schools(the most expensive) and the poor would go to the worst(the least expensive). Do you honestly believe that privatizing schools is a solution?

      I would propose that we stop spending money on foolish wars overseas, we've currently spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $365 billion. If we spent that much on education every child could have a private tutor. I mean, that's enough money to send everyone on the planet a check for $50. More money for teachers is the solution, make it a competitive, honored position.
    • WhiteRaven, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@LesterKing,

      Wow, you really aren't paying attention to the issue we are discussing. It is the unions' control over the curriculum and the outright crazy stuff they are teaching our kids... and also all the things they *aren't* teaching... that is the issue. The three Rs (that ain't) have taken a back seat to "social awareness" and valuing diversity. College professors everywhere will tell you how ill equipped the current generations are to face the world. Not only is their actual, fundamental education extremely poor, they have never learned to accept criticism and learn from mistakes. They are virtually helpless and it is the progressive bent of the teaching community and the strangle hold it has on the nation's education boards that are causing this.

      The terrorists won't have to beat us, we'll just collapse under the weight of humanity that has never learned to BE human. The way the progressive mindset treats issues such as failure and criticism and conflict and economics is infecting our youth and is turning this country into an enormous basket case where no one is equipped to actually support civilization.
    • powerclam, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Wow. No win situation, eh?
      If someone says "Nothing is worse than AL Q" then they're vicious scaremongering neocons.
      If someone says "Here's a threat that is more tangible and potentially more dangerous than AL Q" they're vicious scaremongering neocons.
      You're an idiot and can shove your misapplication of Godwin's Law right up your poopchute.
    • powerclam, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0the above was @jbstrikesagain
  • whalefarmerjohn, on 10/12/2007, -17/+9Fox News: Bringing us back to the gilded age one news story at a time.
  • mikefitz2, on 10/12/2007, -17/+8yeah screw the unions all they do is screw people. just like steve jobs said all they do is screw people. screw it.
  • JJsays, on 10/12/2007, -16/+10Have to agree 100% with this man.
  • martalli, on 10/12/2007, -14/+10Geez - the teachers unions may be retarding progress in education, but they are certainly not al-Quaeda. The right wing's main problem with the teachers unions is that the unions universally detest right-wing reform efforts. For that, they get lumped as "worse than al-Quaeda". The conservative that voices this claptrap has little intellectual honesty. Don't mistake that I agree that the unions seem to oppose any reform and thus are probably retarding progress - but they are not al-Quaeda - what *****.
  • getjustin, on 10/12/2007, -11/+7Good thing he doesn't have some kind of agenda or radio show that requires an inflated ego and pompous, asinine comments like these.
  • Dhalsim007, on 10/12/2007, -9/+19If you live in Pennsylvania, and have your local districts "held hostage" every other month by local teachers' strikes, because they don't want to pay one cent towards their medical coverage (like the rest of us do) and they don't want to have their performance reviews affecting their employment, you have to wonder who the unions really support ... the kids or themselves? That's the "terror" that Boortz is taking about.
    I'm sick of having my taxes raised each and every year to the maximum allowable (without causing a riot) because the local district is afraid to cut anything, because the union may strike. I'm sick of it.
    • GabrielS, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2You don't have to wonder. The unions represent the teachers that choose to be members and no one else. It's in their by-laws.
    • Echoes1313, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I attended high school in Pennsylvania, and I know exactly what you (and Boortz) are talking about. It's true. My graduation date was in limbo for quite a time, and we didn't know if we would be attending college the following year because the teacher's were constantly striking.
  • kublerross, on 10/12/2007, -6/+22umm do any of you actually know any teachers in your immediate family and have to hear the bs they deal with?
    so many are leaving and the impending shortage is shocking, surely to be filled by ever less qualified people

    why not end the power of the PTA? these litigious morons will sue you if little bobby doesnt get the grade THEY feel he deserves
    theyll sue you if you blink at their child wrong, at the least get you fired

    school boards bend to parents and the PTA as if they were god in fear of lawsuits

    the teachers union is the only thing protecting these people

    • h00paj00, on 10/12/2007, -0/+29Parents who are overly concerned with their kids' grades are far outnumbered by parents who just don't give a ***** about their kids' education.

      My brother-in-law is a 3rd grade teacher in a inner city school. He tried to get one kid some extra help reading. The 3rd grader could barely get through the alphabet, yet knew all sorts of 4 letter words. So my brother-in-law put in extra time helping this kid learn to read, and the kid's parents COMPLAINED, and called my brother-in-law RACIST for daring to say that their kid couldn't read, and he was almost fired (He didn't have tenure yet, and the school would rather fire than protect at that point.)
    • evil-doer, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5agree 100% kublerross
    • okeemike, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9...and that's why my kid is in private school.
    • GabrielS, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2The PTA is an organ of the teacher's union. Again, it's in their by-laws.

      The PTA is a the the liason group created by the unions that represent teachers to reach out to the concerns of parents. The PTA says it represents parents and teachers, but it does not. It only represents the teachers.

      The PTA is the organ by which the unions that represent teachers are able to gauge public opinion regarding how far the teachers can take their demands without upsetting the parents, ie the taxpayers.
  • h00paj00, on 10/12/2007, -13/+10When a Libertarian is called a right-winger... I fear for how far LEFT the Left has gone.
    • evil-doer, on 10/12/2007, -14/+6the vast majority of libertarians are right wing, wtf planet are you from?
    • h00paj00, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11There's more than just left and right. http://politicalcompass.org/

      Libertarians are down on that scale. Sure there are libertarians that are fiscally to the right, but tend to be socially to the left. Unions are an against the interests of the right side of the fiscal scale, but that doesn't make Libertarians "Right Wingers"
    • subgeniusd, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9@evil-doer:the vast majority of libertarians are right wing, wtf planet are you from?

      You are locked in that binary black/white mental box. One side labels us pot smoking republicans and the other side labels us gun packing democrats. Both sides are wrong.
  • davesbrain, on 10/12/2007, -9/+5The teacher's union is doing no service for the kids, but then the union isn't in existance to protect the rights of students, rather it's existance is for getting the teachers better benifits and more money. To say the union is worse than al-Quaeda is pushing the limit.
    • GabrielS, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2I don't know why your comment is at -4. You just posted facts. The Teacher's union represents the member teachers and no one else. This is a fact.

      Yes, the al qaida comparison was really stupid.
    • WhiteRaven, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Consider the role the unions play in determining curriculum and teaching qualifications. Remember how hard they campaign to place their people on education boards. The unions influence over children extends far, far beyond questions of salary. They actively lobby for *teaching philosophies*. A bad enough teaching philosophy is indeed more dangerous than terrorism. Screwing up entire generations is indeed more dangerous than setting off dirty bombs.

      I am in favor of a union that actually represents it's members. I wish teacher's unions would restrict themselves to that. Why are they a powerful political force? Because they seek to influence the very direction of our society. They are a social force, not just an economic one. And as it stands, they are a disastrous influence on this country.
  • TherealObadiah, on 10/12/2007, -8/+18"This unionization and lifetime employment of K-12 teachers is off-the-charts crazy."

    -Steve Jobs
    February 16, 2007
    • h00paj00, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5A Steve Jobs quote getting buried on Digg? Amazing!


      That's like a priest calling Jesus a bastard child!
    • wizbor, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Amazingly you had people all across the spectrum supporting his comments. Predictable how the digg community is responding
    • GabrielS, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5It helps Mr. Jobs when his comments are 100% accurate. The teacher's unions are THE obstacle to modernizing education.
    • Praetorius, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Negative Wired.com article on Steve's comments. I usually agree with Wired but in this case the writer is all wrong:
      http://www.wired.com/news/columns/0,72754-0.html?tw=wn_index_16
  • mAarontheGREAT, on 10/12/2007, -6/+495% of my peers are morons...
    97% of those younger than me are brain-dead pop-culture automatons...
    and 98% of my elders are ignorant to the world around them...

    ...I wonder how many of them went to public schools?
  • modifiedbears, on 10/12/2007, -7/+8We need to let parents choose which school they want their kids sent to and the government should send the money to it. I don't know why competition is fine in every other aspect of our lives, but not when it comes to education.
    • davesbrain, on 10/12/2007, -9/+5Because the modern public school system was never designed to educate, rather, it was meant to provide corporations with predictable and easily manipulated consumers.
    • h00paj00, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7davesbrain: You had me hovering over the thumbs up, expecting you to say "provide corporations with predictable and easily manipulated factory workers." which would state how out of date our education system is.

      But you went the tired-old-anti-capitalism route.

      *yawn*
    • davesbrain, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1h00paj00, it goes hand in hand, doesn't it? The point is corporate America wants predictability and manageability. They don't want people thinking; well, do I really need this? anymore than some individual on the factory floor thinking do I really need to be here? Perhaps they don't want individuals at all, just a faceless mass of homogeny.
  • logosx1, on 10/12/2007, -8/+5No, you can't compare terrorists to teachers. While terrorists may destroy your body, modern education will devour your mind and soul. Modern educational theory -- as developed over the course of the twentieth century -- has no interest whatsoever in fashioning intelligent or independent minds, but rather seeks to create compliant employees and unquestioning citizens. Check out this former teacher's tell-all: http://johntaylorgatto.com/index.htm Schools today condition a child to be herded and prodded around all day without suffering a psychotic breakdown (although some children don't quite make it). Any child who actually finds ideas or knowledge interesting will be ridiculed and vilified, preparing him for a life of meaningless toil in the service of corporate and governmental masters.
  • ColonelJessup, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8I agree with Boortz on alot of the issues he talks about on his show. Personally I think he is an ass, like most conservative radio talk show hosts, but I do agree with alot of his views on politics, government, and general social issues.

    @populist, Boortz is not a governement loving pig, if you listened to his show for only 10 minutes you would know that. Don't make assumptions, it is obvious you have not heard his radio show.

    The child molesters in the teachers unions, can not be fired. They can't teach the children, but they still receive a paycheck. I don't agree with that.
  • Ender06, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2No child left behind.
    • bearsare, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8no child left behind created more problems for teachers and caused the teaching to be to the test and not for improving the classroom and what the students learn. Being a former teacher, it caused me to leave the classroom because I was no longer being allowed to teach how I wanted to.
    • Ender06, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2That's sort of what I was getting at. (I'm not supporting no child left behind) My mom's a teacher and she thinks it's dumber than all hell.
  • Bamont, on 10/12/2007, -9/+6Boortz is Libertarian - proves how much you know. Please, continue trying to promote the idea that anyone who disagrees with the radical left is Right Wing - just continues to prove your own stupidity.
  • timefreeze, on 10/12/2007, -6/+8The teacher's unions are doing for our children what the auto unions did for american vehicles. Anybody wanna buy Chrysler?
  • RationalBeaver, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2We don't need no education.
    We don't need no thought control.
    No dark sarcasm, in the class room.
    Teachers leave them kids alone.

    -Pink Floyd
    • vr1000, on 10/12/2007, -9/+14I am so sick of this privatization BS. Would anyone trust big companies to educate their children? No. It will be like privatized health care in the US. The companies will spend 25-50% of the money on administration and trying to pass the buck and the CEO’s and VP will be making billions. The teachers on the front lines will get the bare minimum. It will be like daycare.

      The problem is we already spend too much on administration and not enough on the classrooms and teachers. Why is there a specific tax deduction for teachers buying supplies for their students? Because they have to.

      I love how everyone bitches about the unions. Well folks this is a capitalist society and you get what you pay for. Don’t expect Harvard educations on community college money.
  • Muzztein, on 10/12/2007, -11/+5America, land of the idiots, home of the brainwashed.
    • h00paj00, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8Which explains why kids fall for socialist tripe......
  • growler1, on 10/12/2007, -11/+14As much as I'd like to join the bandwagon, kids, I have to disagree.

    1). There ARE bad teachers and they should be able to be fired after documentation of their poor performance. That's only fair. The myth that this does not ever happen has been perpetuated by people pushing an agenda. (Mostly conservatives who want to suppress the free-speech rights of teachers and college professors and/or make inroads in science classrooms for the teaching of intelligent design).

    2). GOOD teachers need unions and the collective bargaining power of unions in order to make legislators and parents/governmental entities aware of things that need to be changed in order to benefit students and education as a whole. Teachers are the professionals here. They are the experts in their fields. At present, the people with the power in school districts are administrators and parents. Teachers are stuck in the tug-of-war between the two.

    3). As I've said before, I am a college instructor with a terminal degree in my field, and I make a paltry sum (< 45k) compared to people in the business sector. I love what I do. However, if you force me to make a choice between living a life of misery for what I do and finding myself another job that doesn't require me to fight assholes over every single little petty issue about my academic freedom in the classroom, then I'm going to quit and the country can then be educated by whoever is desperate and sad enough to take my place.

    4). The first, very first step in making a country a fascist ***** is to target its intellectuals. Hound them, discredit them, and take away their political power, and it makes it easier to then subvert the thinking of an entire nation when the ideologues and sycophants hold sway over your children. Mark my words.

    5). Boortz is a blowhard (albeit a more entertaining blowhard than Rush) who very rarely truly subscribes to all that he spouts, and I consider this issue no different. He does, however, know how to get debate stirred up, and for that I respect him as an entertainer.
    • Bamont, on 10/12/2007, -10/+1You know what they say, growler.

      Those that can't do, teach. Glad you aren't doing.
    • davesbrain, on 10/12/2007, -9/+3I'm not attacking intelectuals. I am, however, attacking a system that pays people almost double the average wage for nearly half the time worked and provides medical, dental and retirement benefits that working people don't have. I also take issue with teachers striking right at the beginning of the school year and telling us that they, the teachers, have the best interests of the children in mind. All this even though they're asking for even better benefits and higher pay. I've never seen them strike and ask for a single thing for the students. Maybe elsewhere teachers do this, but I've not seen it happen.
    • evil-doer, on 10/12/2007, -7/+8bravo growler1. seriously, bravo.
    • haydesigner, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7"4). The first, very first step in making a country a fascist ***** is to target its intellectuals."

      Very true indeed. The only people that get any facetime/publicity any more are the ones that talk the loudest and refuse to engage in a meaningful debate. Hence our current crop of political pundits.
    • pkpkpkpk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Growler's point about fascism and intellectuals could not be more accurate. Think Cambodia and Pol Pot
  • edm1950, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6But then again as Robert Townshend wrote "No company ever had a union that didn't deserve one." This applies to any organization. I can't see how blaming unions for incompetent administration solves anything.
  • mchristiansen, on 10/12/2007, -6/+9IMO, the real agenda here is the privatization of our public school system. A recurring theme among neocons is turning public institutions into opportunities for some corporation to provide the some service that the public sector was able to provide for 10-20% less.
    • humpingmonkey, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9@mchristiansen

      WTF? Give me one example of any "service" that GovCo. can provide more efficiently than the private sector. Oh, and while you're at it, can you tell me where in the Constitution socialized education is prescribed.

      Only a free market in education can remedy the decay of the current system--a system that, like any government-run industry, has deteriorated into a junk heap of dismal public schools that meets no one's educational needs.

      By the way, my wife works in the public schools and after 5 years in the system she'll concede that education must be privatized. When you see first hand how inefficient and absurd the system is you realize it's a large contributing factor to the crumbling of our nation.
    • LloydDobbler, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6@ mchristiansen: I agree with humpingmonkey here. Couple of points:

      1) Most private schools pay their teachers less than public schools. And yet, oddly, there's usually a waiting list to teach at a private school. Care to explain that to me?

      Okay, perhaps I'll do it for you: Private schools manage their sh*t. People want to work there because they're efficient, and because they know they won't lose funding for, say, art supplies when the legislature votes a certain way. They work there because the schools have more of a focus on discipline - not the "beating kids" kind, but the "this kid is disrupting the class, and therefore needs to be kicked out" kind. If all the attention in school goes to the bad kids, how can one expect the god kids to get much out of it (besides learning to be bad)? They still work long hours - they just have a much better quality of life, because they're not constantly trying to make up for incompetence of other teachers, of principals & school boards who don't run the district efficiently, and of parents who are apathetic.

      (Or at least that's the way it is according to my GF, who works in the public schools.)

      2) Don't assume just because someone doesn't drink the liberal Kool-Aid that they're a "neocon." Boortz is a Libertarian.
    • William01, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@LloydDobbler

      For the short time that I worked at a public school, county-wide orientation was full of people that were so happy they had finally made it into the public school system. Many had worked for 10 years or more in the private system before being able to get into a public school. According to my wife, who student taught in private schools, for the most part, the only teachers who weren't trying to get into public schools were the ones who had given up.
  • wheresmyreagan, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7My children will be private school all the way. I won't raise morons just to save tution cost.
    • edm1950, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3I agree with you, you should spend as much as you can afford raising your morons.
    • kirbs, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5what if you couldn't afford tuiton, let alone rent and clothing?
    • powerclam, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@kirbs: "what if you couldn't afford tuiton, let alone rent and clothing?"

      "I'm afraid it's medical experiments for the lot o' ya!" - Monty Python
  • themathgeek, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Unfortunately, blaming the union is the easy way out. Most people who have an opinion are not willing to do anything about it. Education of children begins at home with parents.
  • Bamont, on 10/12/2007, -8/+7You're right. Us conservatives, we're all the same-way. Idiot.

    First off, the problem here is that privatizing a school would actually make students who are in attendance give a damn about their education. In places like Japan, you don't have a choice about school, you don't have a choice about 6-days a week education, and you damn sure don't have rights while you're inside that school. You obey the teachers, the professors, the school administrators - because if you don't, they kick your ass out and you'll be damned to an eternity of fast food. The major difference between the US and Japan is that we give kids multiple chances - in Japan, you get very, very few. Because of that, most children aren't willing to ruin their futures because of stupid choices.

    Some liberals have given us the impression that children somehow have equal rights to adults. This is one of the only countries in the world where that is in fact true, and because of that, teachers don't want to teach kids who can attack them without consequence. I doubt any of you have ever been to an inner city school - but imagine a scenario of a teacher being attacked, and defends him/herself - the teacher is either fired, put on administrative leave, or the school is sued and tax-payers get to pay out a lump sum because some ***** thug didn't like being made fun of because he refused to read the assignment the night before.

    Let people who want to be in school be there. Those that don't? Let them continue working minimum wage jobs, we have plenty of them - and I need somebody to take my order at McDonalds.

    Intelligent people, like many Diggsters, suffer because of the mentality that we're supposed to take care of people who don't want to take care of themselves. When this idea falls in a few years and Americans start realizing that we shouldn't assist people who won't even try to do well at life - then we can really say we're a liberated country.
    • davesbrain, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3The problem with the Japanese educational system is that it produces very good test takers and very poor thinkers. Which is the reason every Japanese corporation will send their managers to American or european universities to learn how to think.

      I do agree with you about allowing people to fail on their own.
    • dgaspard, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4agree with everything except for "Intelligent people, like many Diggsters"
    • Bamont, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Actually - they send their managers to be educated here in the United States (primarily) because we have less traditional forms of teaching management and business. Specifically because we're more of a capitalist society than they are. At least, we train our people that way.
    • Skuba, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2@Bamont
      Here's the problem with that idea. How responsible is it to allow a CHILD, some one who could be 11, 12 years old, to make a decision like dropping out of school and ***** up the rest of their life?

      But I'm sure you were completely responsible at the age of 11 and were able to fully evaluate how your decisions would affect the rest of your life...
    • hessef, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Ah, yes, the Japanese stamp out creativity in their schools. This is why Japanese children constantly import American toys, games and shows such as Pokemon, Super Mario, Legend of Zelda, Dragonball Z...wait a minute, I think something's backwards here...
  • growler1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8"You know what they say, growler.

    Those that can't do, teach. Glad you aren't doing."



    --Those of us with enough smarts do both, cookie.
    • Bamont, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1Actually - those of us with enough smarts don't bother teaching, we just shoot straight to the top. I imagine that alluded you in the long run. All that education and so little intelligence - guess Boortz is right.
    • FloppyLlamaDigg, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@bamont

      Yeah, ***** teachers! They never helped me get anywhere!

      /sarcasm
    • Skuba, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5@Bamont
      Honestly, has it ever occurred to you that not everyone choses a career by asking themselves, "how can I make the largest amount of money possible?"
      But I suppose if I must ask the question, the answer would be "no."
    • Flooded, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@Bamont

      I think, perhaps, you meant eluded. Good thing education didn't elude you.

      Normally, I wouldn't bother with something like this, but with the statement you made, well... the irony was delicious.
  • everynewday, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4Boortz has been saying this for quite some time now. He says it on his radio show all the time. I wholeheartedly agree. There's no way I'm sending my kids into public schoo - especially after I went through it. It is a complete frickin waste of time.
  • offcenter, on 10/12/2007, -6/+4The NEA is _completely_ out of control. Home/private schools will eventually make this painfully clear.
    • slois50, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Put your kid in a charter school. I dare you.
  • dgaspard, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5I can think of a few unions we should worry about before we attack teachers. But those union have lobbyist, so the politicians won't say to much about them.
  • scottytoodope, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1well, thats one way to frame an argument...
  • ophilye, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I agree.... Teachers could kill many generations of children, making the US incredibly stupid.

    So, let's take all the money that we're funding to Iraq / Iran, and use it to buy better teachers. When teaching becomes more lucrative than, say, being a CEO, I know damn well that everyone will go to school for 8 years to get the job.
  • Sublime059, on 10/12/2007, -7/+3You guys agree with this?:::::

    Boortz also called to abolish the Department of Education and in the past, charged that public schools are “brainwashing” American children.


    WAY TO AGREE WITH A ***** PSYCHO CHAPS!!
  • swimsy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6I find it ironic how quickly people union-bash, particularly in this political environment, where the middle class is under assault and has pretty much lost the class war. Yeah, screw the unions, the folks that gave us the 40-hr work week, decent wages, the weekend, health benefits, etc. Most people are ignorant of the sacrifices made by early union members and the benefits we (the shrinking middle class) have received from them. Any organization requires scrutiny, because a certain number of people (always sensationalized) will abuse any loophole in the system, be it union, corporate, or government. Abuse by unions is paltry compared to corporate or government abuse. Unions are just an easier target.

    Speaking of easy targets, teachers have always been the easiest target in the education blame game, despite the fact that most parents are ridiculously negligent in being involved with their children's education, and children take their cue from their parents. Even more outrageous, a school administrator or bureaucrat who has actual teaching experience is as RARITY in this country. I think it should be mandatory that all school administrators have 5 years' teaching experience. Most administrators care more about their career advancement and school politics than giving their teachers the support they need to do their job effectively.

    For the record, I am not a teacher, nor am I a union member. I have, however, spent a good deal of time volunteering at my children's schools, and I have almost always been impressed with the teachers I've come in contact with. It is a brutal job, and teachers have one of the highest rates of burnout of any profession (I don't begrudge them their summer break to recharge). Most are extremely dedicated, despite getting little respect from the administration or parents. Most are intellectually curious and genuinely concerned about their students' welfare. As a group of workers, they hold their own with any profession. You think teaching is a cake walk? Well, be the change you want to see in the world and try it. Then tell me how the NEA is ruining our educational system.

    Neal Boortz is a pompous, ignorant boor, a government tool, and certainly no teacher. Good thing, too.

    Scott
    • humpingmonkey, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4"I find it ironic how quickly people union-bash, particularly in this political environment, where the middle class is under assault and has pretty much lost the class war. "

      What exactly do you mean by "lost the class war"?

      "Yeah, screw the unions, the folks that gave us the 40-hr work week, decent wages, the weekend, health benefits, etc. "

      40 hour weeks are proven to be the best bang for the buck... not set by unions. People get burnt out if they work much more and the extra hours have diminishing returns.

      "Neal Boortz is a pompous, ignorant boor, a government tool, and certainly no teacher. Good thing, too."

      You sir, don't know what you are speaking about. Boortz pretty much hates government.
  • Highstand, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3It's really easy to blame teacher's unions for all of education's ills. However, in my opinion, it all comes back to the parents. The parents of today are complete idiots. They are either not involved at all in their child's education or too involved in every aspect of their child's life. We are raising a generation of pussies and that pussification has permeated into the classroom. Teachers have to spend more time disciplining the students instead of teaching. The students are more enamored with their cell phones than with the instruction. They expect to be entertained at all times. If something isn't entertaining, then it isn't worth learning. Where do they get this attitude? Their parents. Television and internet to an extent, but the parents allow that. I've seen it in the high school classroom and the college lecture hall. An entire generation of entitled little *****. You can't blame the teacher's union for that. Granted, there are bad teachers and they should be removed from the classroom. Most of the teachers I talk to care very much about educating the students. They are frustrated because the students are, for the most part, up-and-coming, delusional-ridden blobs of self-importance. They all think they are going to be millionaires and bang supermodels in the back of their Hummer. Fix the parents and everything will be fine. How do you do this? I don't know.
    • davesbrain, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2Where did the idiotic parents go to school? It's all a circle, right?
    • GabrielS, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2My folks went to Catholic schools. The teachers were mostly nuns and priests with a few community locals pitching in to teach their trade skills. The pay grade was very low. It was low because teaching wasn't a "career". It was an obligation. The children must learn. Ergo, the community must make sacrifices in order to make that possible.

      Today, teaching IS a career. Few, if any, make REAL sacrifices to accept lower pay in order to fulfill the community obligation that the children must learn. Instead, today's teacher is focused on their own indepedence. Through the unions, the mission of teaching is one based on financial goals of self dependence and the ability to raise children in a single parent household. Most of the members of the union are single. The union votes on most issues and as their members are single, raising children, the union must answer to those demands.
  • slois50, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Keep thinking of teachers as the enemy, America. That's the solution to all of your problems.

    I don't know why anyone would want to be a teacher in this atmosphere. You spend half your day trying to work with the autistic child that is being "integrated" into a normal classroom, and the other half trying to teach discipline to a bunch of kids who were raised by television sets. After hours are spent dealing with parents who believe everything their children tell them, and who watch shows that demonize you.

    On top of this, you get passed down a curriculum determined by talking heads in Washington, and you are told all of your funding is based on meeting goals that would put every kid in the top 5% of his peer group.

    Yeah, go ahead and blame the teachers. Then you can sit and wonder why the best and brightest keep leaving your district.
    • humpingmonkey, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4I agree. In most cases, the teachers are fairly competent. Its the system and the fact that it's "publicly" funded. A bulky, bureaucratic, inefficient system that doesn't have to adhere to economic accountability can render even the most competent individuals in the world useless. Also, one idiot career-politician can offset the dedication and productivity of thousands of capable teachers.
  • izmophonik, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10My wife works 7:00 - 5:00 with a 15 minute lunch. Also, during her lunch she has kids running around and screaming in her 1st grade class the whole time because her lunch is at a different time than her first grade class. She's in her 7th year now and makes $32,000 a year. She loves to teach none-the-less. For all of you assholes who think that teachers only work 9 months out of the year you try to work 9-10 hours a day with hardly a lunch and no free time to sit on digg and spout nonsense out of your arse. Then when you get home, you can't watch T.V., you can't go to the park with your kids, you can't go out with your friends because why? You have to grade papers for an hour or so...that's 11+ hours a day. If you sit down and think about this longer than the 10 seconds it takes you to write some ***** complaint about how we shouldn't feel sorry for teachers pay you will see that a teacher can easily put in more hours than an 8-5 guy in 12 months. Here's my formula:

    Teacher @ 11 hours per day for 9 months = 1980 hours (figuring 20 work days in any month) 11x20x9=1,980 hours.

    White Collar worker @ 8 hours per day for 12 months = 1920 hours (figuring 20 work days in any month) 8x20x12=1,920 hours.

    So, ***** all of you with your 9 month argument. By the way I HATE THE NEA! THEY ARE PURE EVIL. Digg Me DOWN!
    • GabrielS, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Boortz isn't condemning teachers. He's condemning the unions that represent the teachers. You've conflated the two to your detriment.

      You should read the EIA, Education Intelligence Analysis. It's a group that gains access to the meetings held by the teacher's unions to report on the kinds of measures they pass. The unions that represent the teachers take positions on some fairly ridiculous events that have no relation to education whatsoever. What you learn is that the teacher's unions DO in fact represent the personal politics of the member teachers. That's not wrong. That's what unions do. They represent the positions of their members.

      This is what Boortz is condemning.
      http://www.eiaonline.com/
    • bearsare, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I couldn't agree more with your statement. I would have gladly traded places with someone in a different industry to see if they could make it in the classroom I changed careers - even though I truly loved teaching, I couldn't stand the way the system was going. Everyone should try to be a teacher for a week and just see how difficult it really is.
  • iupetre, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6The teachers unions are a horrible facet to our educational system.
    http://www.educationpolicy.org/files/Crisis398.htm
    • GabrielS, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Control of the labor supply is terrible regardless of the industry. It's catalyzed by the fact that education, along with healthcare, are the two MOST socialized industries in the United States.
  • luther70, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Another great ideal from Boortz almost as good as - "In times of disaster we should save the rich people first."
    • humpingmonkey, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2Who would you save, the bums on the street? Yea, they'll help get things back up and running.
    • davesbrain, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3So poor people are worth less and therefor less deserving of assistance?
    • dgaspard, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2We should save ourselves. Whoever is left, well those people, there worth a damn.
    • NomadOfNorad, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@davesbrain

      No, but rich people would have more resources, and more perseverance (they had to work really hard to get rich, didn't they?), and more sheer guts at their disposal and so would be that much more likely to help in rebuilding society than... oh, say... a welfare recipient.

      If you had a jet full of poor people, welfare recipients, and such, and another jet full of rich people, and both needed to be quickly flown out of the area that a suitcase nuke was about to go off... and you were the only pilot available...you'd be far better off flying the jet full of rich people.

      Now, mind you, if one jet was full of rich people, and the other was filled with geniuses and inventors... THEN it would be a tough call, since they'd both be of equal value to Mankind's survival.

      This is also assuming that all the rich people on those planes were self-made people, rather than ones who inheritted their wealth, or were movie stars, or lottery scratch-off-card winners, or something.

      This is a completely seperate thing, however, from the value of a human life, though: Every life is precious.
    • powerclam, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@davesbrain: "So poor people are worth less and therefor less deserving of assistance?"

      Not so much "less deserving of assistance" as "of less help in rebuilding society after a disaster."
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