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Upside-Down American Flag Brings Farmer Arrest & Death Threats

progressive.org — Dale Klyn raises beef cows in Corydon, Iowa. For the past six years, he has been flying an American flag on his property. But since May 21, that flag has been upside down. He gives two reasons. He faces death threats from a forum on a Marine vets ’ website, www.leatherneck.com, which calls itself the “Marine Corps Community for USMC Veterans.”

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  • davenp35, on 10/12/2007, -432/+22Klyn is a traitor just like you Rhiannon. I hope he is run out of town.
    • seattle98104, on 10/12/2007, -20/+69B'B'b'b'b'b'b' BLOCKED.
    • scoot87, on 10/12/2007, -15/+221a traitor is someone who betrays his country by committing treason. The man in the article has done nothing to commit treason, while High powered officials are passing laws that are corroding our Constitution. Now thats treason.
    • andrebrown, on 10/12/2007, -17/+131So much for freedom of speech. It's starting to look more like a dictatorship every day.
    • Wiggles2, on 10/12/2007, -20/+66davenp I hope there are many snakes on your plane
    • haystacker, on 10/12/2007, -82/+32@andrebrown

      Actually it is the 5th Amendment that protects citizens' property and freedom of expression (as well as the 1st in some cases). When you say "so much for freedom of speech" you make yourself look like an idiot. The government has taken no action, and rightly so, because of this crazy document called the "Bill of Rights". The only reason he legally CAN wave his flag upside down is because he is protected by the Bill of Rights. Yea, what a disguisting dictatorship.. it's almost as bad as Cuba or China. Please, for everyones sake, think before you post, so I'm not the one that points you out as a moron. He has every right to do it. And yes, I think the guy doing it is also a moron.
    • hammydude, on 10/12/2007, -53/+2(DOT) (DOT) (DOT)!!!!
    • PongGod, on 10/12/2007, -6/+33I think you're closing in on a record for most unpopular comment.
    • andrebrown, on 10/12/2007, -8/+56@Haystacker The marines are threatening him. The marines are associated with the government, and what I'm saying, is that people aren't allowing him to his right of free speech. Death threats by the marines for hanging a flag upside down? It sounds more like Iraq than America. That's all I'm saying.
    • masamunecyrus, on 10/12/2007, -4/+50"A Democracy will vote away its rights." -- Benjamin Franklin.

      Gotta love ol' Benjamin. He was one hell of a party-er (loved his alcohol, participated in orgies), but I'd rather that drunken, orgy-participater run this country than anyone we have now...
    • fantasticFlan, on 10/12/2007, -3/+30@haystacker: "The government has taken no action"

      It's right in the headline: "Upside-Down American Flag Brings Farmer *ARREST*"
      How did you know you might want to come here and comment without reading the ***** headline?
    • iamdw, on 10/12/2007, -38/+9@Rhiannon1214

      Why did you manipulate the post to make it seem like the reason he is flying the flag upside down is because of death threats from Marine Vets and why has noone picked up on this??

      The actual story reads

      "Dale Klyn raises beef cows in Corydon, Iowa. For the past six years, he has been flying an American flag on his property. But since May 21, that flag has been upside down. He gives two reasons.
      ( this is where you substituted the death threats from Marines and welp, it's just one reason contradictory to the "two reasons")
      First, he’s angry at a judge for allowing a debtor of his to declare bankruptcy. The debtor, who had bought a business from Klyn on a contract and still owed him $282,000, now only has to “pay me six cents on the dollar,” says Klyn. “The judge approved that on the 18th of May. I was pretty upset about that.” Second, he wants to show solidarity for Terri Jones."

      Did anyone follow the stories linked or is this just Marine bashing ?? The Marine "threats" appear, oh, FIFTEEN PARAGRAPHS later and about a month and a half after he turned the flag upside down....


    • goodoldharris, on 10/12/2007, -4/+34davenp35:

      Principles of liberalism - liberty, due process, free speech, individual rights - are built into the US Constitution. Using slander and threats of violence to quiet dissent is a kind of fascism, completely opposed to liberalism. You, and the townspeople and marine vets of the article, are fascists.

      So it's ironic that you call a farmer like Dale Klyn or the guy who submitted this article traitors. Because it's YOU, and the people shouting traitor, that show a complete disrespect for this country by disrespecting everything the Constitution stands for. Realize that the only reason the US remains a free country is because fascists like you exist only at the margins of politics and media. Sensible people need to speak out more to make sure you stay there.
    • treelovinhippie, on 10/12/2007, -16/+63***** you Yanks are so friggen patriotic... it's like "American Extreemists" lol.

      Do as us Aussies do... grab a beer, head down to the beach and chill. Most of us don't even know what our flag looks like or the words to our anthem, who cares!

      It's the culture and people that make a country, not some piece of cloth with coloured dye on it.
    • iamdw, on 10/12/2007, -29/+12oh, by the way, where is the mention of him being arrested in the story? all i saw was "charged with disorderly conduct" and “No trial date has been set.” How does that mean he was arrested? did i miss something, anyone?
    • iamdw, on 10/12/2007, -31/+8i notice i am receiving negative comment diggs. Is someone willing to step up and tell me why?
    • haystacker, on 10/12/2007, -21/+6@fantasticFlan

      There's a difference between an arrest and an arrest threat. The government has taken no action, unless you include the media's idea of a threat an 'action'.
    • goodoldharris, on 10/12/2007, -7/+19iamdw:

      I'll step up. The title says "arrest, death threats", ie., threat of arrest + death threats. He's being charged, close enough don't you think? Focus on the point of the article and don't whine and nitpick meaninglessly about the title.
    • iamdw, on 10/12/2007, -23/+7@haystacker

      it's rather apparent that nobody has actually read the story thoroughly, if at all. Of course, that won't stop them from burying my comment about a glaring manipulation of the Digg's description.

      The reason he is flying the flag upside down is because he is showing solidarity for Terri Jones, the mother whose son returned from the Iraq War and committed suicide.

      The Marine comments on a forum is only a reaction to the Flag being flown upside down and not vice versa. Course.... everyone chooses to conveniently ignore this and believe what they want...
    • goodoldharris, on 10/12/2007, -7/+16haystacker:

      The police, the prosecutor, and the courts are part of the government. When someone is "charged", that's government action. You could not be more wrong.

      And "free speech" is protected by the Constitution, but it is also protected by the people of the USA who uphold and support the Constitution. andrebrown's comment, "So much for freedom of speech", is dead on with respect to this article. The government is abusing free speech by charging the farmer for making a political statement with his flag. And the people of the town and the marine vets show they have zero respect for the most fundamental constitutional values of this country. You're the one making yourself "look like an idiot" here.
    • iamdw, on 10/12/2007, -17/+5@goodoldharris

      "He's being charged, close enough don't you think? Focus on the point of the article and don't whine and nitpick meaninglessly about the title"

      close enough?? close enough doesn't mean he was arrested, right? If the major paper in you local area had published that, writers and editors would likely be fired.

      And meaningless nitpicking... are you serious?

      The description makes it very clearly sound like the reason he is flying the flag upside down because of threats from Marines on a message board while the REAL reason is that he is supporting the mother of a soldier who has commited suicide after returning home from Iraq.

      You call that nitpicking? it is absolutely inaccurate and misleading.
    • haystacker, on 10/12/2007, -10/+5goodoldharris... I don't even know what you are trying to say, I think you just repeated what I said an somehow twisted my words. I was going to respond, but I can't stop laughing.
    • goodoldharris, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8iamdw:

      " ... He gives two reasons. He faces death threats from a forum on a Marine vets ’ website ..."

      You're confused about this. In your head, change it to "" ... He gives two reasons. Also, He faces death threats from a forum on a Marine vets ’ website ..."

      Does that help? People on the board can read. In fact, they can read well enough to see what the submitter meant, even though it may be ambiguous.

      And the Marine comments are NOT the only reaction. He is BEING CHARGED WITH DISORDERLY CONDUCT. You need to ask yourself again who can't read.
    • fantasticFlan, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7@haystacker

      If "charged with disorderly conduct" = "The government has taken no action", who the ***** charged him?
    • goodoldharris, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6haystacker:

      You said "the government has taken no action." Charging someone for disorderly conduct IS government action. Where's the twist?

      (I see fatasticFlan beat me to it. Thanks.)
    • texpundit, on 10/12/2007, -15/+17I'll say this and I don't give a ***** if I'm modded down:

      I voted for GWBUSH.. twice.. TWICE goddamn you.... and he tricked me the first time... because I thought I had REAL Repub in office... *****.... and the only reason I voted for him the second time is because Kerry was a ***** NIGHTMARE....and Dems are nothing but the flip side of the same 2 headed coin as the Repubs. NO differerence.

      But GWB has ***** the REAL Repubs in trhe a$$. Why do you think I defected to the Libertarian party?!?
    • goodoldharris, on 10/12/2007, -11/+3iamdw:

      You argue like a chick!

      THREAT of arrest - Get it? Not "Arrest". But THREAT of arrest. He IS being charged, and if he's found guilty, he CAN BE ARRESTED. Hence THREAT of arrest.
    • haystacker, on 10/12/2007, -8/+5@fantasticFlan

      ... An individual who is not affliliated with the government, and not the government itself. Although the judicial system is part of the government, it works for us, not the other way around, and therefore the government did not charge this moron. Is that clarified enough?
    • iamdw, on 10/12/2007, -9/+4@goodoldharris

      "You're confused about this. In your head, change it to ' ' ... He gives two reasons. Also, He faces death threats from a forum on a Marine vets ’ website ..."

      Ehm, no actually you read it just as it is copy and pasted into the description. You only figure out that the latter part when you go ahead and read the actual linked story.

      I am fully aware that most readers are more than capable of figuring that out once they've read the story. All i am saying if the the description is misleading and that it quite evident that a fair number of people simply click to Digg and never end up reading the actual story and form an opinion based on the description.

      Can you figure that out?

      "And the Marine comments are NOT the only reaction. He is BEING CHARGED WITH DISORDERLY CONDUCT. You need to ask yourself again who can't read."

      What's your point? i've not commented on that... I (assume to) hold the same opinion as you in that he should not be charged with anything. Flying a flag upside down violates no right.
    • goodoldharris, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6haystacker:

      "Although the judicial system is part of the government, it works for us, not the other way around, and therefore the government did not charge this moron"

      That's wrong. The prosecutor and the courts ARE part of the government. The prosecutor presses charges ON BEHALF OF the government. In fact, ONLY THE GOVERNMENT can CHARGE people. So your comment that "the government did not charge this moron" makes ZERO sense.

      This is not my opinion, but a simple fact about the US legal system. The government DID charge this guy. That's government action. You are just plain wrong, and again, you are making yourself "look like an idiot". Laugh about it all you like.
    • iamdw, on 10/12/2007, -11/+4goodoldharris

      "You're confused about this. In your head, change it to ' ' ... He gives two reasons. Also, He faces death threats from a forum on a Marine vets ’ website ..."

      You only change that "in your head" after you've read the article. It's rather apparent that a good number of people only Digg and never actually read the story and form opinions based on the description. The reason i'm debating this is that the description should be true to the article - this one is not. It's quite the opposite in fact and misleads.

      "And the Marine comments are NOT the only reaction. He is BEING CHARGED WITH DISORDERLY CONDUCT. You need to ask yourself again who can't read."

      what's your point? I've not commented on the ACTUAL result of his flying the flag upside down and agree that there is no reason for arrest based on the story as he;s violated no constitutional rights. So why don't you ask yourself who can read.

      "You argue like a chick! THREAT of arrest - Get it? Not "Arrest". But THREAT of arrest. He IS being charged, and if he's found guilty, he CAN BE ARRESTED. Hence THREAT of arrest."

      Again, what's your point? I've made it clear that he was not arrested. Once again, my only issue is with the story description and title. The title is "Arrest, Death Threat, for Farmer with Upside Down Flag", yet there is no mention of arrest in the story. Yea, again you can assume in the future he may be arrested, but he has not been yet, only charged.

      And for the last time i'll say this, I AGREE HE SHOUULD NOT BE ARRESTED based on the story.

      Now i've got better things to do than try and make a point in a place where noone seems to be listening... have fun burying and insulting me.

      Good night.
    • fantasticFlan, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2@haystacker

      Are you seriously saying that the judicial branch of the government works for the people so nothing they do constitutes a government action?

      "... An individual who is not affliliated with the government,"

      I don't know what you think "affiliated" means... unless this was some kind of citizens arrest.

    • Roguecop, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4@davenp

      Congratulations, you're almost the most dugg down person ever on Digg.

      How does it feel to be 'run out of town', donkey?
    • datastorageguy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10I thought flying a flag upside down meant SOS or in need of help..
    • theoallardyce, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2When someone calls someone else a traitor it is almost always true that _one_ of those two people is infact a traitor.
    • theoallardyce, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2> I thought flying a flag upside down meant SOS or in need of help.

      Actually I think that's the union jack because most people wouldn't notice if it was upside-down so you can use that as a secret distress signal. If the US flag is upside down your average hostage takers are going to wonder why.
    • MasteRR, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2"and the only reason I voted for him the second time is because Kerry was a ***** NIGHTMARE"j

      When you are voting you are not voting for "out of those who could win, who is less ***** up", you are supposed to be voting on who you think is best for the position. There were more than two people up for vote, and in some states the option for a write-in. Pick who you think is best for the job, not who is less ***** up out of Dem. and Rep.

      Any one of the third party options would have been better than both Bush and Kerry, in my mind.
    • corporate70, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@ Everyone

      "iamdw" appears to be the only one who has read the article, and in doing so exposed the misrepresentation of the facts (i.e. lies) by "Rhiannon1214". However "iamdw's" comments have been silenced by people who are digging him down.

    • corporate70, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@ Everyone

      Hmm, a post which discusses free speech has all of the comments for a certain point of view silenced by being "dugg down"

      Ironic or Hypocritical?
    • DCMacHead, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@ treelovinhippie

      As an American, I take offense to you interfering with the United States' internal affairs. The U.S. doesn't tell you how to fly your flag, so go ***** yourself.
    • 4wheel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Although I do not condone this gentleman's action of hanging the flag upside down, he has every right to do this, and it's nobody's business but his. That fact that he was charged with anything at all is frightening. I read the article, and I can't really agree with the "death threats" angle. People that don't like what he's doing are expressing their disdain for his actions.
    • treelovinhippie, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1@ DCMacHead

      "As an American, I take offense to you interfering with the United States' internal affairs. The U.S. doesn't tell you how to fly your flag, so go ***** yourself."

      Wow, lol that is the most contradictory statement ever... as a non-American, I take offense to America interfering with every other country and thinking they can impose their way of life through whatever means necessary (e.g. war, bombing a country).

      The US already tells me a lot of what I can and can't do. e.g. the free trade agreement Australia recently signed with the US means that I can now be put in jail under US law for pirating a movie etc.

      Politically speaking, we only kiss your arse so we can *hopefully* guarantee future protection/alliance if needed when America decides to start WW3 and we start getting attacked.

      I'm sick of Australia being the pawn for the other world powers. WW1 our soldiers were use as a ***** decoy at Gallipoli. They were sent in to die, meanwhile the Pommies sailed around to a different cove, had a cup of tea and slipped behind the battle. "War on Terror"... again we're one of the first countries to put up our hands and offer support.

      Australia has never once fought it's own battle... it's always been fighting other people's battles.

      But yeah enough ranting.

      As I said before, the most important aspect in any country should be based around the people and their culture. A happy and respectful society, with a great culture is utopia for any country. Flags, anthems, world records, war battles don't add squat to a country.
    • JDenigma, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1You know what, ***** you Davenp35! I didn't have a problem with you before, but now with that comment of yours at the very top, I've lost any respect for you. It appears your service in the military has brainwashed you and blinded you to reality. Keep waving your flag. You're a good American. You're better than the rest of us, aren't ya? ***** this world and ***** the human race! This world is going to have to get worse before things get better....if things get better that is.
    • prettybabynow, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I'm Sorry, but Klyn is NOT a traitor. If you would look of Flag Etiquette, you would learn that it means distress. It is not improper or disrespectful to fly the flag upside down. It means that the person that hung it that way is in distress. Terri Jones in in distress. I would be too if my son returned from war only to commit suicide. I would be distressed over the attacks that have been made on Klyn by people who believe that they are patriotic, but don't even understand flag etiquette! He's done nothing wrong. I support him. And now, I am going to walk across the street to check on my neighbor. I got up this morning and their flag is hung upside down! Something is up. I hope that you have a neighbor that you can check on.
  • pault6, on 10/12/2007, -6/+84The flag was the standard flown by the people who wanted the right to be heard. Flying a flag upside down and using that as an opener to discuss issues with his neighbors is a proper exercising of those rights. By the way, statistically 50% of the confederate flags are flown upside down.
    • Hurricane, on 10/12/2007, -14/+3LMAO, thats because the confederate flag is the same either way, so technically half of them are upside-down..... thats a funny one to think about.
    • Hurricane, on 10/12/2007, -6/+5BTW, I have a small webpage under an old yahoo ID that has a faded flag on it upside-down and a message about taking action to protect your rights from new legislation.
    • Hurricane, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1WTF? Why am I getting commented down for laughing at the upside-down confederate flag joke?
      If you can't tell which way is up then statistically you are going to fly it wrong 50% of the time.
      What the hell is everyones problem on here anymore???
    • Hurricane, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1§176. Respect for flag

      No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.

      * (a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
      ..... and so on.....
    • Hurricane, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1LMAO, I went on to read the rest and technically it is in violation of the rules to put the flag on any advertisements or clothing or any packaging that may be discarded...... WTF???
  • mlorrey, on 10/12/2007, -54/+13How can you tell that a Confederate Flag is upside down? Looks the same either way...
    • theblooms, on 10/12/2007, -5/+24The Confederate Battle Flag and the Confederate Naval Jack (what 99% of people think of when you metion "Confederate Flag") look the same, but the ACTUAL Official Flags of the Confederacy (3 of them in all) would absolutely look differently upside down than right side up.
    • Rigbymatt, on 10/12/2007, -4/+17how can you tell you diddnt get the joke?
  • mlorrey, on 10/12/2007, -2/+144As a military veteran who was sworn to protect and defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic (not the flag, not any government of any politician or party), I reserve the right to fly the flag upside down or even burn it to express distress at attacks on the Constitution or its abrogation by our officials who are also sworn to protect it.
    • scoot87, on 10/12/2007, -6/+50Thats what so wrong with many deilussioned supporters of the president. They don't realize the threat towards the Constitution in a domestic aspect.
    • Haecus, on 10/12/2007, -112/+14"sworn to protect and defend the Constitution"


      Very interesting.
      So loyalty to the Constitution takes priority over loyalty to the President?






    • blablaman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+105"So loyalty to the Constitution takes priority over loyalty to the President?"

      Well I'd rather protect the one that this country is based on, keeps all bodies of the government in check, protects my civil liberties, and will be around past 2008.
    • azconza, on 10/12/2007, -3/+79Absolutely! Loyalty to the Constitution first and foremost.
    • MadKennyP, on 10/12/2007, -1/+62Of course loyalty to the Constitution must come first. The President is only one of three branches of government. But the Constitution is the basis of our whole form of government.
    • Anpheus, on 10/12/2007, -5/+60The constitution can't be impeached.

      Unfortunately, it seems the same is true of criminal presidents.
    • Xyphr, on 10/12/2007, -29/+2Actually in effect I'm pretty sure your disallowed from speaking out against the president directly while in duty... which is rediculous in itself... People enjoy reading far to much into things and in reality all of it come from my country, the States... most people here are so full of themselves and actually see something wrong with flipping an object the other way... say it symbolizes all you want It is still JUST an object. Deny that and you truly are part of the problem... it's the attitude stemming from people thinking we're the world police, that because someone else starts up a friendly nuclear power plant we need to worry (Don't flame me for that, that wasn't a reference to the actual occurances Just a hypothetical.) People face the simple facts that you can become as pissy as you wish to everything anyone like me does, like not supporting the majority of our government, but you're the ones bringing this country you claim to love so much to tension by initiating confrontation with completely peaceful countrymen who are just proving their points. We all have beliefs don't assume yours are better of course think your right or else you wouldn't side like that but respect that feel like that too! By the way the majority of this was not directed at who I replied too, just a bit at the beginning. I expect to be burried soon heh...
    • sillywampa, on 10/12/2007, -1/+29@Haecus
      Absolutely loyalty to the constitution over any single President. The President is an elected official who is supposed to be bound by the Constitution. The Constitution defines our system of government and our rights as citizens. The President is supposed to be a servant of the people in defense of the Constitution. No one person can ever be held higher than the ideals set forth in that document.
    • lubacious, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18what part of "the supreme law of the land" confuses you?
    • MasteRR, on 10/12/2007, -1/+32"So loyalty to the Constitution takes priority over loyalty to the President?"

      Damn right it does. That peice of paper the the whole idea this country is founded upon.
    • kgilkerson, on 10/12/2007, -36/+5One has to keep in mind that the marines that sent him death threats had their best friends die to defend the rights that he's covered by. I can see why the marines would be angry, I know I would be.
    • haystacker, on 10/12/2007, -27/+8Of course the Constitution comes first, when a new president is sworn in, he declares his loyalty to uphold the ideals the US was founded upon.

      "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

      You can replace a president easily, but you can't make the slightest of change to the Constitution nearly as easily. So, in essence, the president is the Constitutions bitch.

      mlorrey: "As a military veteran who was sworn to protect and defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic (not the flag, not any government of any politician or party), I reserve the right to fly the flag upside down or even burn it..."

      The Constitution is there to protect things, specific things... like the flag, president, our government. I'm sorry if you feel the need to burn the symbol of America, I'm sure all the great men who wrote and defended the Constitution would be proud of you. Not to mention Betsy Ross and the like. Burning the flag is a simulation of hatred (even though it is protected by the Constitution) for your country, and the bottom line is if you hate your country, your flag, your forefathers, the ideals on which your country was founded (and in which you were born, which you fought for), the president, and everything the Constitution protects, then get the ***** out.
    • atomicfireball, on 10/12/2007, -17/+1yeah.
    • Sotired, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11absolutely
      even the President himself takes an oath to defend the Constitution, as do all lawmakers in all branches of Government. It is NOT a case of my President right or wrong.
      We are all honor bound to protect the Constitution, A person may have to protect and defend the Constitution from a lawmaker that wishes to abuse it.
      This does not say however that one may also have to protect the President while performing ones duty to the Constitution.The President is not a Super-Citizen. They are given Authority by the People, arising from, and spelled out by the Constitution. The Constitution protects all Citizens from zealots and would be monarchs and despots.- So yes the Constitution over the President period.
    • Sotired, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4sorry edit time ran out on above.
      I meant to state that One may HAVE to protect the President while preforming ones duty to the Constitution. - my post read as if I wanted to say one doesn't have to protect the president etc. anyway - you know what I mean. dang.
    • Sotired, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Haystacker
      I can't believe you would write what you did at the end of your eloquent opener.
      You realize the Constitution does NOT protect the flag and the marine CAN burn it if he wants in protest - and if You don't like it - you can stay here and enjoy everything he fought to protect for you . - even you ability to tell him to get the ***** out.
      but thankfully you don't run things. Peace Brother dude.
      You may want to actually read the constitution its a beautiful document. you'll find out about the flag thing too.
    • haystacker, on 10/12/2007, -23/+3@Sotired
      I will try to clearify for you in a short example as I am getting sick of posting on this topic: If you respect and defend the Constitution, in war or peace, the Constitution is the staple of everything that is the essence of the US. Burning a flag not only contridicts this simple argument, but also denotes perfidy.
    • haystacker, on 10/12/2007, -6/+6--even though the right to burn the flag is a right within the Constitution in which he has valiantly protected
    • cheapskate, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13@haystacker:

      The constitution is there to protect the PEOPLE _FROM_ the president, the congress, the bureaucrats, and yes, against marines. Not the other way around.
    • archiesteel, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9haystacker, burning the flag is not expressing hatred of the US, its symbols and its institutions. That's a strawman argument.

      One can burn a flag as an expression of anger (not hatred - don't confuse the two) towards the policies of the US government. I personally believe that it's over-the-top, but I do recognize that it is in now way a hatred of the Constitution which permits it.

      There's something else, too. It seems that many "patriots" love the symbols more than the ideals they represent. The symbol is just a symbol.

      "If you see the Buddha on the road, kill it," says a Zen story. Understand it and you'll understand me.
    • haystacker, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7@archiesteel

      You make very good points. Although I don't agree with you on the point of hatred vs anger (and I can differentiate the two), I think a lot of what you say is very well put and respectable.
    • Hurricane, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6"So loyalty to the Constitution takes priority over loyalty to the President?"

      Indeed, that is what every drop of blood spilled on the battlefield is for.

      Where are you from that you think a President is soo important in the USA?
    • davenp35, on 10/12/2007, -7/+7What does your being a vet have anything to do with it *****. I'm a vet too. Congratulations. Most of the so called libertarians here on digg don't even have the slightest clue what libertarianism really is. Goodoldharris is one of those. In a free-market system if you don't like it you do something about it. That's how you take care of frauds and crooks. You are 'free' to condemn them. You are obviously some hybrid libertarian-pacifist. There is a difference between the two by the way. Many libertarians don't conform to your idea of zero intervention or never trying to effect the actions of others. If I think someone is a traitor and has a stupid opinion I will say so. I know you guys love the opportunity to condemn the military and 'defend' the Constitution in the same breath, but who in their right mind would take progressive.org as a reliable source anyway. There is something seriously wrong when libertarians team up with leftists who love their government control and could give a ***** about the Constitution. You guys are having debates about what it means to fly the flag upside down. You don't have a clue about most of what you're rambling on about on here. I consider myself a libertarian, but guess what? If I ever saw someone burning the flag they better be able to run really fast. I'm not saying Klyn doesn't have a right to his opinion. But I also have a right to attack his opinion. Sibhod-talk about a pantywaist. I'd say the dumberst Marine is still 1000 times the man you are. Attacking anyone who criticises someone else for their opinion isn't defendind the Constitution. Most of the people here at digg wouldn't know the first thing about defending the Constitution.
    • br0ck, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2@haystacker "Burning the flag is a simulation of hatred (even though it is protected by the Constitution) for your country"

      If you were a true patriot you'd know that burning the flag is the most dignified means of disposal. United States Flag Code 176.K "The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning." http://stockholm.usembassy.gov/usflag/flag_code.html#176
    • haystacker, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3 br0ck... if you actually comprehended what i said, i have nothing against disposal of a tattered flag... that is not even close to the issue.
  • Rhiannon1214, on 10/12/2007, -4/+30Sounds like davenp35 has never read the law of the land, the US Constitution. That isn't very surprising, considering the eloquence of his comment.
  • thenativeraver, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19I used to do the same thing every columbus day. (in front of an elementary school no less)
  • BoneDaddy64, on 10/12/2007, -4/+40Oh, I am sure davenp35 has "read" the Constitution. However, I doubt he believes in the concepts codified therein. Notice he immediately calls someone a traitor. The "Brown-shirts" in Germany did the same thing during their rise to power. No davenp35, I contend that it is YOU who are a seditious piece of garbage.
  • Ndiggnation, on 10/12/2007, -4/+64It's comforting to know there are Marines defending our country, who think it's a good idea to *KILL* a citizen for exercising the freedoms they so proudly protect.
    • JediPii, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9There are as many knuckle headed former Marines as there are from any other group. The only difference is that former Marines have demonstrated at least a willingness to put it on the line, where as most other groups haven't demonstrated anything.

      I'm a former Marine, and a Libertarian. If you want to fly your flag upside down (symbolizing "distress"), or burn it in protest of a Government that has turned it's back on the very document that gave it life, I'll defend your right to do so until the bitter end.

      People that blindly go along supporting the actions of their Government are the real traitors. As an American, you not only have the right, but the obligation to protest when the Government supersedes it's charter. The actions it takes at home, or abroad, are done in each of our names. The terrorists make no distinction between the actions of our Government, and our actions as a people.
    • Ndiggnation, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Thank you. Very good post. I appreciate your well said stance. There are many "patriots" who seem to believe that blind allegiance to the office of Commander-in-Chief, the government or even the flag itself is what being a true patriot is. I think that you, sir, are a true patriot.
      You've served the country in the military. I admittedly have not. You have done so, and seemingly for the right reasons. You stand for the right of the common citizen to say what he pleases, and say it's even an obligation to protest when those in power have stepped outside of their authority. I appreciate your willingness to defend that right, even if it's expressed in a manner that may be disagreeable to others.
      In the military you aren't trained to think, you're trained to defend. This is likely why there are so many of those "knuckle headed" Marines. Their hearts are arguably in the right place, but their means of defense are not. (As in joking about sniping the man, or later in the thread, beating people down with baseball bats whom disgrace the flag). You, however seem to do so in the truest sense of the word "patriot".
      I am proud to have/have had soldiers like yourself standing for us. I wish and hope that there are many others like you. Not all Devil Dogs are a**holes.
  • libertymls, on 10/12/2007, -7/+54The upside down flag is a symbol of distress. All true patriots realize that our country is indeed in distress. The arrest of this farmer for airing his opinion illustrates perfectly how far our country has come from the Constitution. Please also read this article by Aaron Zelman of JPF0 http://www.jpfo.org/alert20020628.htm
    • noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12Thank god someone else had brains enough to know that. I can't believe anyone is defending the ***** who are threatening this guy or the retards who areasted him.

      I find it hard to believe Marines wouldn't know the distress signal.
    • mrbinary, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14"I find it hard to believe Marines wouldn't know the distress signal."

      As do I, but unfortunately it seems that most Americans wrongly interpret an upside down flag as a desecration, rather than as a universal sign of distress. It can be done with any flag, and conveys the same non-political message.

      An upside down flag is, in fact, nearly identical in meaning to flying a flag half-mast. One is ambiguous while the other is not: half-mast can symbolize either distress or grief, but upside down it can ONLY symbolize distress.
      I somehow doubt that he would have received death threats had he flown his flag half mast.

      I'm saddened by the fact that people who claimed to have "fought for the flag" (which isn't the case at all - they're confusing the object itself with the values that it represents) have so little understanding of it.
    • dontbejack, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3I'd also hope that those Marines on that message board would know how to type out full words, but I guess not.
  • sdrawkcaB, on 10/12/2007, -7/+14This is a good example of how people can be way too patriotic, and take it way too far.
    • Spanktacular, on 10/12/2007, -3/+32Zealotry is not patriotism.
    • Tijmen, on 10/12/2007, -3/+57It's not patriotism, it's nationalism. Stupid people fight for symbols, good people fight for the ideas those symbols represent.
    • atomicfireball, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12==It's not patriotism, it's nationalism. Stupid people fight for symbols, good people fight for the ideas those symbols represent.==

      Yep. You pretty much nailed that one on the head, although I would argue that it's worth than Nationism... it's Jingoism. But I think we can both certainly agree that you shouldn't confuse either true patriotism which holds fast to the ideals upon which our country were founded, and which are so eloquently expressed in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
  • MasteRR, on 10/12/2007, -4/+46I always find it ironic that the same people that call people like this guy un-American, are the same people trying to remove his 1st amendment rights.

    Yeah, real American... ***** hypocrites.
  • toomyw, on 10/12/2007, -2/+27It starts to bring tears to my eyes when a citizen of the USA wants to kill another citizen over his practicing of free speech. Yet, I remain hopeful that things will improve and that we can stop being so polarized and start being more inclusive.
  • guregu, on 10/12/2007, -2/+22The forum where the death threats were made:

    http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31729
    • helix400, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9Whoa, that was one of the creepiest things I've ever read in my life.
    • PongGod, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Wow, some REAL patriots there! Just the kind of people you want representing the so-called "Land of the Free"! I'm hoping these pathetic individuals are mostly posers rather than actual enlistees.
    • Poco, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Looks like the only voice of reason on that board is Kilroy238. ++Digg to Kilroy238 whoever you are.
    • atomicfireball, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9-- I'm hoping these pathetic individuals are mostly posers rather than actual enlistees.

      Unfortunately, it's very possible that these people are members of the military, although they represent an extreme. This is something you unfortunately find when get a bunch of Marines... especially young, enlisted Marines together. Unfortunately, in situations like this, groupthink can sometimes overcomes rationality. The military, and especially the Marines (and special forces of the other branche) use phsychological indoctrination techniques to create an "esprite de corps" - a feeling of comraderie and superiority among their members. Certainly, you've been exposed to "the few, the proud, the Marines" advertisements, if nothing else.

      Military Recruiting plays up the fact that being a Marine (or special forces member) is grueling, and that only the best can make it through the training, which is absolutely true. This technique gives people pride in what they do and who they are, and makes them bond with their peers more tightly. It also makes them viciously, almost pathologically loyal... unfortunately, it can also make them fairly myopic in terms of to what they are loyal. The flag, the country... those are simply concepts, easy to grasp... easy to be loyal to. The Bill of Rights, on the other hand, is something that some of the greatest minds and greatest jurists have been struggling with for over two hundred years with no resolution in sight.

      I won't defend the actions of these particular Marines. But, you reap what you sow, so to speak, and this should not be an unexpected result of the training and indoctrination that we give our Marines. We want them to be a ferocious and capable fighting force; we can't at the same time make them balanced intellectual experts on jurisprudence and the machinations of social governence.

      Most people are unwilling, and a great many are unable to fully comprehend the complexities that lay behind the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and with careful training and indoctrination, it's awfully, frighteningly easy to get people to think a certain way.

      The world is far more complex than most people want to believe.
    • Inverno, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3looks like someone took the thread down. Probably a good idea on their part.
  • Libberkey, on 10/12/2007, -4/+26A bunch of bigots who do NOT respect freedom are terrorizing this man. But this man knows what freedom really is. He knows what free speech really is. And he knows what it means to support and love one's neighbor.

    The bigots don't realize, that by violating this man's rights, they violate their own - and may eventually give them up by being imprisoned (if they take it much too far). If a man isn't free to fly his flag as he likes, in accordance with his Free Speech - or even burn it - he is not FREE.

    Here's a man who's side it is easy to be ON.

  • hazlett, on 10/12/2007, -2/+27these marines should be ashamed to even call themselves Americans. Freedoms which this farmer is displaying are the very things the marines boast of fighting to preserve.

    And, of course, the Constitution takes precedence over the president.
    • MasteRR, on 10/12/2007, -17/+7Those marines arn't fighting for anything but their right to kill people and not get sent to jail.
    • neozeed, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3That would be the "***** peice of paper" right? I think its dead & burried thanks to that patriot act.
    • neozeed, on 10/12/2007, -11/+1burry this!
  • mc7winkie, on 10/12/2007, -29/+3All I have to say is this. Some people obviously didn't like it and told the authorities so it could kind of be seen as disorderly conduct. And secondly the death threats are pretty weak and mostky funny.
    • MasteRR, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14Oh man if it was that easy to get someone who I disagreed with arrested, I would have a field day.
    • mc7winkie, on 10/12/2007, -35/+1You shut up, don't you have anything better to do? Both parties are idiots, including you.
    • MasteRR, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11You obviously missed the point, however you proved it quite well with your actions.
    • kingofearth2, on 10/12/2007, -1/+17So that means I can get my neighbors in trouble for disorderly conduct around Christmas time for their decorations because I don't like Christianity? You shouldn't get in trouble for displaying your opinion on your own property. Or anywhere for that matter.
    • mc7winkie, on 10/12/2007, -26/+2You obviously didn't get my point. If what he is doing is causing a problem in the community it is disorderly conduct. On the other hand I think it is a frivolous lawsuit and that he is an *****. Just like you.
    • Jacob, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1@kingofearth

      While I agree with you on this topic, you say our opinions should be able to be expressed everywhere. What if my opinion was that all forms of clothing were bad, by your reasoning I should be allowed to go anywhere I want completely naked. Sure opinions should be expressed and it should be allowed anywhere but to say all opinions everywhere is too far there are lines that shouldn't be crossed. That didn't make much since but you might get what I'm saying. As it is I'm a strong supporter in doing whatever you want with the flag to get your opinion across, it's not like you are defacing what it stands for. (sounds sarcastic reading that but I'm not trying to be)
    • soll, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Is it that hard to understand the big difference between being brought up on charges, and filing a lawsuit?

      Please, refrain from spewing forth your frothing retardation on complicated matters you can't comprehend. Take a god damn second to know what the hell you are talking about next time.
  • GlassUser, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10I don't like what he's saying, but I'd defend to the death his right to say these idiotic things. I seriously doubt the patriotism of anyone trying to silence him.
  • helix400, on 10/12/2007, -4/+20Timeless fact #1: Death threats are extremely immature.
    Timeless fact #2: Death threats on web forums are sadly very common.
    • ImTheDarkcyde, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16TAKE IT BACK, IM GOING TO FIND YOUR FAMILY AND KILL YOU

      *VERY obvious sarcasm
  • Urusai, on 10/12/2007, -16/+9This is why I hate America.
  • sh0k, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11Anyone else read that forum the article linked? Lots of crazy people in this world.
    What did they teach these guys in the army? It's like they are all...brainwashed....
    • mc7winkie, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3They're not in the Army. They're in the Navy. Geesh.
  • wuxia, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10I will be HAPPY to let those 'mommie-boy marines' take my damn american flag. Compared to the Constitution it dont means sh*t to me. Hell, I will even let them die for it. With all the bad press that the marines have been getting lately for their bad behavior, you would think that they would learn to STFU. So let me be the first to tell all of you 'has-been' leather necks... STFU. No one is paying you to think. And to the marines that are still enlisted, STFU too. No one is paying you to think as well. Just do your job and STFU.
    • dontbejack, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2So does that mean they should constantly refer to their neanderthal instincts, which are to kill and rape innocent Iraqis? Or does that mean that they should sit on some forum and bash some guy about something they don't have any understanding about?
    • MrViklund, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1STFU STFU STFU yourself wuxia. You are an insane idiot period. Go way.
  • shirosamurai, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13As a liberal who is critical of many things happening in the US right now, I still say patriotism is a good thing. However, there is a fine line between patriotism and zealotry for your country. Patriotism to me is being proud of our history, our founding fathers, and the beliefs that this nation was founded on. When patriotism crosses into zealotry or nationalism is when people begin spewing hate-filled speech about how America is always right and always #1, when there so many things that need fixing in this country, on many, many levels.

    It's people like these who are harming America. The neoconservative ideology (not traditional conservatism!) is a twisted, hypocritical thing. People who make death threats against this guy have it so backwards, it's sickening. They trample on the constitution and the bill of rights, and yet they still run their mouths about how we're so great and will always be the greatest country in the world. Reading that forum and particularly that thread.. it's astounding how many ignorant bigots we have in this country.

    It's sick. And it's no wonder why the world hates us...
  • KingDork, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Go on that forum and give them hell. I did :)
    • dontbejack, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Did you use the same username as here or did you make one totally different?
  • franksmith, on 10/12/2007, -20/+1Oooohhh real bad death threats

    Real "shake in your boots" stuff

    If he can't stand the heat... then stay out of the kitchen
  • Rizmaster, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8I'm there right now. Spam this nazi forum.
    • helix400, on 10/12/2007, -8/+4Ya, egg them on. That shouldn't cause them to feel their extreme views has been validated or anything.... :/
  • dvfreelancer, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Who elected the Marine Corp as the guardians of group think patriotism? That's not the job we hired them to do. Just because you served your country admirably doesn't make you the decider of the limits or boundaries of political protest.
  • neozeed, on 10/12/2007, -14/+1Who cares? Whats on tv tontie, now that the world didnt end as promised.
    • The_Dude, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2I just watched the Enron movie. It's running again on HDNET M again in 10 minutes. Pretty cool movie. Did you know an Enron executive named Tai managed to lose 1 billion, cash out 350 million bucks and now is the second largest land owner in Colorado? Now THAT'S America! Now it's Futurama reruns and then Family Guy. (Eastern Standard Time, consult your local listings)
  • jeradd101, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5@ haystacker, the government did do something, he was charged with disorderly conduct. This is not ok, it makes me want to display a flag upside down in solidarity of this man. It is not an easy thing to express dissent in the face of harassment not to mention death threats. It is not only his right to express his opinion, but his duty when he feels the government is not fulfilling its responsibilities.
  • Aggaman, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8That forum has convinced me that "Full Metal Jacket" is a documentary.

    What the hell does the Marine Corps do to those people?
    • Rizmaster, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1give them an inflated sense of self importance.
    • AxeSwinger, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8@Aggaman

      The Corp prepares men and women to fight and possibly die for their country. It's a necessary job and honorable. Battle is simple complete your objectives and survive. This is done by trusting your ranking officers to give lawful orders, discipline, following orders and luck. To question orders during battle could lead to your and your teams death so you follow orders. However oft times this mentality does not transfer well to politics or reasoned arguments.

      Marines are told they are defending American values; one of those symbols is the Flag. Additionally, most Marines, at least the many I know, feel they have earned special patriotic points because they've defended the flag and Joe and Jane America's freedom. Since Jane and Joe have not put their life on the line they are not as patriotic as a Marine. So when Joe or Jane defames these symbols it is seen as an affront to those Marines who survived or died defending our Flag.

      I don't agree with the reasoning. But, I believe we ask Marines and other service member to do horrible things in the name of this country. Not politically horrible, but horrible in a sense that killing someone or watching your fellow Marine die is going to change you forever.

      An 18 or 22 year old has no idea of the atrocities they might see when enlisting or accepting a commission. In order to maintain sanity and survive in such a chaotic environment the absolute belief that what they are doing is right and just is all that will sometimes stop the demons in dark moments. This type of thinking is encouraged by the Military because it allows normally sane and normal people to become very necessary tools of destruction.

      That’s not to say it can’t be taken too far and used to rationalize atrocities committed in the ranks or to justify lapses in discipline. However, when discipline fails it’s usually because of a larger underlying issue, lack of supervision, Abu Grab, battle fatigue, Hadith murders, while the service members involved should be held accountable. Ranking officers also need to be held accountable for not taking care of their charges and preventing these types of actions in the first place.

      This is longer than I wanted and does not do the topic justice, for that I’m sorry.

      Support our Troops: Fund Veteran Benefits
    • ccran, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@AxeSwinger

      "I believe we ask Marines and other service member to do horrible things in the name of this country."

      I did not ask anyone to do anything for me or my "country." Your post is very well-written, but do you see how the quote above feeds the machine?
    • AxeSwinger, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@ccran

      It does feed the machine but it's reality. Unfortunately, your and my voice is not the one the military listens too, they listen to the instruction of the people we gave our voice too, elected officials.

      While officers swear and oath to defend the constitution the president is the Commander in Chief and the Military is a command and control organization. It likes orders because it gives a clear objective that can be completed. It would take alot for a Officer to disobey a direct order because that is not how the social order is set up in the Military.

      It's not a perfect system, whenever you have differing view points someone is not going to not get what they want. I served in the Military, honorably discharged, and became a pacifist, mostly, of course it's easy for me to do so since no one has tried to take my land, property of freedom, mostly.

      The system can work but it needs a fair chance: open dialog, fair media coverage and a populace that is informed, sadly I'm concerned about where we are going as a country because we've become too afraid. Life is dangerous, living is the number one cause of dying. (at least that's what the bumper sticker said)

      Our only choice is to use our voice and contact our elected officials relentlessly or become an elected official to create change. Vote, campaign, donate to your political flavor, demand election reform, tell people Govt is not business and should not be run like one, profit motive is for companies not public servants. It's not right and left its a ring and the opposite sides often look very similar.

      We all enjoy certain liberties because we are Americans however it appears those are being eroded not just by this administration but others as well IMHO this administration seems to be more arrogant and less subtle about the erosion.

      /step off soapbox
  • phatt-matt, on 10/12/2007, -23/+3This guy, like any other person who burns a flag or hangs it upside down, is trying to cause trouble. They know that it will raise the ire of those they disagree with. It is nothing more than a cheap stunt to draw attention to themselves. If they really have something to say in protest, they should do what our founding fathers did: write pamphlets. Write letters to the editor. Run for office and give speeches.



    • noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3It's a distress signal. There is nothing wrong at all with flying the flag upside down, burning it yes, but hanging it upside down is a sign that there is trouble or more specifically "things are not how they should be". He probably would have got in just as much trouble writing a letter.
    • Cymrubeats, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2@ fat-matt - Yeah...right on brother. You just go ahead sucking on that big fat imprisoning ***** you seem to love and let some real, brave people make the changes. ;)
    • cheapskate, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@phatt-matt:

      So what you're saying is no-one should say anything that's not popular? We should all just agree and get along? What world do you live in?
    • libertymls, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Um, I think our founding fathers were a bit more action oriented than writing pamphlets or running for office:-) ... or you were joking, right?
  • Procure, on 10/12/2007, -23/+1Everyone on this site "hates America" and the stuff that happens here. It is very cliche, but move away or change it if you don't like it. It is so ridculous: The people who complain most sit in their basements and post comments like these.

    Thank you phatt-matt for saying what needs to be said.
    • noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7Get a freaking life. I used to love this country, and in a way I still love America, but if you can't see how far the government is turning away from the country you need your head checked.

      We are not in America anymore, the idea that is America has gotten lost and we are left with power-hungry greedy businesses pushing power-hungry greedy politicians ahead of them.

      And if you can't tell from this article and countless other news stories there are severe consequences for trying to do something about it.
    • Ndiggnation, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2@ Procure-You say "Move away or change it if you don't like it". Those that protest are trying to do just that. They love their country more than if they simply left it. They are choosing a tougher route. That of a true patriot. Attempting to change from within, that which they see as harming the country they love.
  • noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6They accept them then train them. Trust me these peopel were ***** up before they joined the Marines. I have several friends who join the Marines and aside from leading very strained lives they are no different than before.

    So, while the Marines have been getting themselves a lot of bad press, lets not turn against them all.
    • noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Oops, the previous post was meant to be attatched to Aggaman's/
  • MasteRR, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11Oh wow what a supprise! I post on that forum and get banned and my post deleted!

    Shows how much those marines care about freedom.

    • neozeed, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4Just their freedom to terrorize farmers. Hmm terrorists....
  • Rizmaster, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5Exactly. Same here. I'm thinking we need YTMND to raid them.
  • guregu, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2They have closed the thread.
  • NapoleonGold, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3I am glad he made his point and got some DEBATE going.

    Remember that lil' LEON STRAUSS's????????????????

    Remember that???????
  • sibhod, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8The comments on that Marines messageboard actually turn my stomach. Why is it that most ex-Marines I run into are jingoist meat heads who resort to violence when presented with any sort of intellectual debate? I fail to see how a job that is either sought out by violent chauvinists or a last resort for poor teenagers is heralded as such a bastion of respect and honour. I guess because saying otherwise results in threats of violence from those who perpetuate the stereotype.

    Don't get me wrong, I greatly respect veterans of WW2 or anyone who has actually died defending our country, but it's just stupid to believe that the Gulf War, Vietnam, or any other military dick-waving our country has done since then has anything to do with defending US freedom.

    If another Hitler pops up, or any actual threat to our freedoms, I would be willing and honoured to help defend out country. But I refuse to perpetuate this US business of war that only wastes billions of taxpayer dollars, ruins our reputation around the world, and does nothing to actually make us safer.

    • JediPii, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2That's quite a broad brush you're painting with...

      To begin with, the reason "most ex-Marines" you run into are chowderheads is because they are the ones that wear it on their sleeves, calling attention to their service. The fact is, you probably run into former Marines on a daily basis, but never know it. Most of us integrate back into society, and go on to lead productive lives. As with any group, you're going to have a handful that will never do anything else of importance, so they cling to their military service as the only accomplishment from which they derive any pride. It's unfortunate, but thankfully, they are the minority (vocal though they may be).

      Also, you have no grounds to slander the veterans of any of America's wars. It's not as though the rank and file have any say as to where they're sent, or the reasons they're sent there. I take particular issue with your comments about Viet Nam, which occurred at a time when the US still had a conscripted military. The men that served there didn't volunteer; they were drafted.

      I served in the first Gulf War, and I agree... It had little to do with defending American freedom. For Korea and Viet Nam, I think you can make the case that attempting to stop the spread of Communism was a noble idea, though perhaps not as obvious a home run as standing up to Hitler.

      And speaking of Hitler, it's very easy to say that if another of his ilk were to spring up, that you'd be the first in line... Saying so doesn't actually require any real commitment. It also avoids the fact that the world has changed, and the likelihood that a leader of a First World nation would set his sights on military domination is highly unlikely.

      Lastly, you continue to act as though you are from the United States (our country; our reputation; make us safer), when you repeatedly spell "honor" as "honour." Where are you really from, and why do you feel the need to pretend to be "one of us?"
  • wickedtribe, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14My father was in the Army and so was I. I know Marines, I trained with them. These are not Marines. These are people that where in the Marines. I would not even bother to call down people in the Army who did this because they would not be Soldiers. Real Soldiers understand that they have sacrificed some of their privileges so that others can have theirs. I could not do what this man in Iowa did under the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) but the reason I live under the UCMJ is for the discipline that is necessary in war. The wars that defend his right to display the flag anyway he likes as a form of protest or otherwise (not this war however different thang here). This is even less offensive than burning the flag. But that is opinion - opinion is the purview of polititions and civilians and talk shows. All protected by the Constitution. Those Marines need to stop with the opinions about what people do with the rights people have from the Constitution and shut up and defend it.
    • drapelyk, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7You've got it! Soldiers who have served time in the military especially during times of war deserve some things. The highest of these being respect. However, one thing they do not deserve is being able to say what others should do with the freedom that they worked for.
  • Rizmaster, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Wicked, it's good to meet servicemen who understand the duty they've sworn to uphold. It's a damn shame that the vast majority are not as honest as you are. We should really strengthen the requirements to become a soldier anymore. I.e. High School diplomas and a psychological profile, and perhaps some kind of idea as to what they're actually doing.
  • bewshy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2The thread I was reading was deleted when I was reading it. Tried to change pages and it was gone.
    • dontbejack, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Yep. Must not like it when they get unwanted attention. Maybe if they didn't act like such ***** pricks...

      Maybe someone got an archive of it.
  • pacetua, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4This man's constitutional rights were violated.

    Was this man disrespecting the flag? Everyone will have their opinions on this, but let me point out The Flag Code "The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property." So was his property (money) in dire distress?

    To all the bull comments by some of you folks- I wish to say, shove it. You're idiotic banter contributes nothing to this. Take it else where, such as your own forum like the "Marines" did. Freedom of Speech brings about responsibility and its your choice how to handle it, just cut the crap on here so decent conversations and comments can be read without scrolling through your banter.

    As for the story of the lady's son there is too much noise within all the news articles to actually tell what went on.

    Thumbs up to wickedtribe.
    • VTmruhlin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4His danger of losing his property ($200 grand, at that) would quite possibly constitute extreme danger to his property or maybe even his life. But I wouldn't recommend flying the flag upside down, as many people interpret it as a sign of immediate danger (i.e. the commies have invaded). Makes him an asshat, but legal intervention is not needed.

      His friend however, is definitely in violation of the law. She's flying the flag as revenge for her son's death. Memory of her son's suicide isn't causing "extreme danger" to her life or property.
  • damienjam666, on 10/12/2007, -10/+2EVERYBODY SHUT THE ***** UP AND QUIT ATTACKING EACH OTHER
    • sabbac, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Um, yeah, that'll work about as well as blaring your horn in a traffic jam.
    • sensoukami, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0I dugg the guy up one, not so much because he was eloquent, but merely that he's right...I wish people would shut up and stop attacking others...why can't people argue about the point at hand without attacking each other so vociferously (though I am guilty of that at times, but am trying to be better)?
  • iamdw, on 10/12/2007, -8/+1 ..
  • dontbejack, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Looks like they've locked down the majority of the forum.
  • haystacker, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2@goodoldharris

    Wow. I mean.. Wow. Thanks for paraphrasing what I said and calling me "wrong" by saying what I said in a different way. The sad thing is that you agree with me, but are quibbling at every little word you dont agree with. Yes, thank you clarifying (sorry I mean paraphrasing) what I said:

    ME: "Although the judicial system is part of the government"
    YOU: "That's wrong. The prosecutor and the courts ARE part of the government."
    ME: "Although the judicial system is part of the government, it works for us, not the other way around, and therefore the government did not charge this moron"
    YOU: "The government DID charge this guy. That's government action."

    Sorry, but the government did not come out of the woodwork and pick on this guy. As I've been saying, a citizen brought a charge upon this guy. So, NO, the government did not charge him. I don't know how to explain it any clearly, but I;m sure you'll find a way to obscure it further.
    • Qenton, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2However the prosecutor is still prosecuting the case. The prosecutor could ask the Judge to drop the charges. So therefore there is some government actions.

      On the other side, hanging a flag upside-down, well that is a weird way to protest. An upside-down flag is considered a distress signal. Could be considered calling in a false alarm. I wouldn't want to fight it in court. If I was that passionate about the problem I would just burn the thing and be done with it. Otherwise just have a No-Bush flag printed up and fly that under the flag.
    • ravenofwinter, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Citizens can take complaints to the government. The local prosecutor has the discretion to act or not, they are not forced to be involved in any kind of criminal prosecution though.

      I've heard that parts of Europe are different, but in the US? Can't imagine it.

    • goodoldharris, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3haystacker.

      You know, that's ***** lame to suggest that I'm twisting your comments. I'm quoting you directly, and in context.

      I'll say it all one more time in the hope it seeps in. The prosecution IS the government. Only the government has the power to CHARGE someone with a criminal offense. In a criminal case, there are ONLY 2 parties - the GOVERNMENT and the ACCUSED. Can you understand all this? Because it means that bringing charges against an individual is PURE government action. In other words, the charges brought against the farmer (or in your words "the moron") are PURE government action. No qualifiers haystacker, PURE government action. Is any of this getting through your thick skull?

      Now that's what I AM saying. Let's compare it to what YOU ARE saying. You said in your first comment "The government has taken no action", and in your second "The government has taken no action ..." Then you said, and continue to say "the government did not charge this moron". These are all your words, copied and pasted, in context. So where's the word twisting here haystacker?

      So, we ARE NOT saying the same thing. The problem is, you don't understand what GOVERNMENT ACTION means, and you don't understand that prosecuting someone IS government action. Since your quoted comments PROVE this, you may want to acknowledge it. Or, you can choose instead to deny what you wrote and backpedal, that's fine too. Either way, don't be a dick about it and blame me for your own confusion.
  • VTmruhlin, on 10/12/2007, -6/+4This is an excellent opportunity to open a discussion about the flag code in general.

    I've always had a problem with people who screw up flying their flags vertically. Half of them attempt to just rotate it, but the Union must be kept in the left corner at all times, not the right. If the union's on the right, the flag is considered backwards, and therefore an affront to the USA.

    Union location and what it means:
    Top Left: Normal.
    Top Right: You hate America.
    Bottom Left: You're in danger.
    Bottom Right: You're in danger, and probably deserve it.

    These are relative to the majority of viewers (i.e. the street), so if you decide to fly the flag vertically, the same rules do apply.

    Anybody else have any flag advice to give to the misinformed?
    • Roguecop, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6Great, the wind hates America too...

      How dare it change direction. The wind is a traitor to the homeland and should be arrested!

      ***** wingnuts...
    • VTmruhlin, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5It the flag's on a pole, the top/left are considered to be the tip of the pole. So even if the wind is blowing, it's ok.

      If the flag is hung, or otherwise mounted (the situation I was refering to), it would take some serious winds to twist it up the way you suggest. You should probably have the flag inside so as not to damage it.

      /How does being nitpicky about rules make me a "wingnut"?
    • dontbejack, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2Fine and dandy that you are saying this here, but go tell that to the ***** ***** Marines on that message board who don't know ***** about the flag code and are saying that this man should be killed just because they're ***** ignorant gun-toting meatheads.
    • VTmruhlin, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Well yes, they're dumb. My other posts in this thread have shown that I think this guy's on the up-and-up. Why would I want to go and piss off a bunch of psycho Marines?
  • audiophiliac, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4The Marines should know, and any person who understands flags and their appropriate uses, a flag upside down meant distress, anyone who flew their flag upside down meant they were in trouble and needed help. Like the skull and cross bones meant disease.
  • Inverno, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11Tomorrow I will be purchasing a small flag which will be displayed upside down on the front door of my apartment. Under that flag will be a print out of the constitution with Amendment #1 highlighted. Below that I will have a copy of this story, and a list of issues I feel are jeopardizing our personal liberties. I encourage others to do the same.
    • Rhiannon1214, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Inverno....You have a fabulous idea. Let's all pass this one on to others.
      We could start a huge movement with one simple visual sign.....
      Bravo to you, fellow patriot.
    • csrster, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Print it on a poster, sell it, make a wodge of cash and defend your freedoms at
      the same time. That's the _American_ way. :-)
    • Inverno, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2@Csrster

      Haha, that's pretty funny. I hope you don't get dugg too far down for it.

      *contacts friend @ printing company*
    • libertymls, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Excellent idea!
  • Hurricane, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1@Csrster

    He is just telling the truth, what is wrong with a little American igenuity?
  • amigiac, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10It's a ***** flag, get over it!
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