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We got more information with a game of chess than they do today, w/torture

washingtonpost.com — "We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture," said Henry Kolm, 90, an MIT physicist who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess.

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  • Gadren, on 11/10/2007, -7/+107Great article. It should be required reading for anyone who thinks "24" is reality.
    • alex7575, on 10/10/2007, -19/+3Sad to say so, but it seems that "24" IS reality...
      • insllvn, on 10/10/2007, -1/+20No because in 24 torture works. Also the good guys always seem to win...
        • alex7575, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1I forgot about that side of "24"... I've only watched a few episodes here and there...

          There... I'll shut up now.
    • RogerStrong, on 10/10/2007, -21/+6It isn't reality. But sadly, that doesn't mean that torture doesn't work.

      That's because unlike "24" and that German general, some tyrants don't torture just individuals. One can never be sure if an individual is an exceptionally good liar, or a desperate person telling the torturer what he wants to hear.

      In real life, torturers round up the whole damn family/tribe/village - or in the US case, every potential Al Qaeda member they can get their hands on. That most of them aren't likely to yield any useful or accurate information is beside the point. They torture them all, compare notes, and look for patterns and matches. It's a data mining operation, not a battle of wits.
      • zybch, on 10/10/2007, -2/+22Torture DOESN'T work. At least not if the objective is to gain useful and accurate information as opposed to torturing for the sake or torture (as seems to be the preferred US reasoning at the moment)!
        • johnhummel, on 10/10/2007, -1/+15Right. Torture as a tool is never about getting information. It's about control through fear. It's not about "I want to know this you will tell me." It's all about "I can do whatever I want to you, to your loved ones, and you can't stop me - so you'd better toe the line, or else I might show up again and do some more of this."

          If you want the truth, torture will never get there - but it certainly will help get you a docile and subservient population afraid to stand against you.
          • netant, on 10/10/2007, -0/+10And a bloodthirsty collective that wants you dead at all costs (see insurgency warfare).

            Genocide is the only effective use of force to undermine resistance.
      • card51short, on 10/10/2007, -1/+5Oh you mean they just round up the whole village to torture then compare notes? Oh, that's just fine then. Nevermind people torture is great!
    • DocHoliday22, on 10/10/2007, -1/+29You know the US has a lasting stigma attached to it because of GW Bush. Those that saw BBC's "Question Time" the other night in the UK will know what I talking about. A guy brought in news paper clippings to show that terrorists and the US foreign policy are pretty much the same thing. Every crime a terrorist committed the US was responsible for something equal or in some cases, more; Torture, Humiliation, Murder, Innocent deaths, espionage, in fact the list of crimes was longer for the US than the terrorists.

      The US doesn't have the right to preach about freedom anymore since they're also the ones taking it own from their own citizens.
      • Bhima, on 10/10/2007, -0/+8Yeah but is it that the nature of the US government has changed or is it that current crop of government officials are so zealous and so incompetent that the world is beginning to take notice?
        • spawnfree, on 10/10/2007, -1/+13The nature has not changed.
          The same bullying attitudes caused Vietnam.
          And they told the American people they were fighting for their freedom.
          it betrays a very interesting state of mind; one that imposes selfish and unfair demands and then feels justified to hurt people when they resist.
          I think the term is 'sociopathic'.
          But then if you go back further you see the same principals being applied to the Indians when they got upset about their land being taken.
          Sociopaths don't feel guilt; they are always right and everything they do has a web of justification, and often a web of dehumanization too.
          Point out the flaws in their logic or try and stop them and you become the 'enemy' no matter how friendly you were before. I have had several friends like this; all abused by their parents one way or another.
          • yahoofrom, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1the ***** mob mentality has nothing to do with sociopath. Indeed I would bet sociopaths are those least affected by the brainless mob's propaganda.
      • DocHoliday22, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2I definitely agree with the above. People are being shaken out of apathy and are starting to take notice. There use to be a time where we looked at the Middle East and thought they were savages for blowing things up (Twin Towers) but now people are starting to point fingers at the US whilst saying things like "serves you right" and "who are you to preach, you're savages too". Also that hardcore group of people who would defend the US down to the very last detail, I think they're also dying out, I mean how can you defend something which is so clearly wrong? It seems that every other day there's some news about US government officials causing someone suffering somewhere.

        It's like that Atheist guy on Youtube says- sooner or later hating the US will be the "new black".
      • DocHoliday22, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1I definitely agree with the above. People are being shaken out of apathy and are starting to take notice. There use to be a time where we looked at the Middle East and thought they were savages for blowing things up (Twin Towers) but now people are starting to point fingers at the US whilst saying things like "serves you right" and "who are you to preach, you're savages too". Also that hardcore group of people who would defend the US down to the very last detail, I think they're also dying out, I mean how can you defend something which is so clearly wrong? It seems that every other day there's some news about US government officials causing someone suffering somewhere.

        It's like that Atheist guy on Youtube says- sooner or later it's going to be a trend to hate the US.
    • Bologner, on 10/10/2007, -2/+0DAMNIT!
    • Bologner, on 10/10/2007, -2/+0And one more thing: If you think that Nazi's and Muslim extremists are even remotely alike in thought process and psychology (I highly doubt many former Nazis are ready to die for what they believe (more so for what they did)), you're dead wrong.
  • savetheusa1, on 10/10/2007, -6/+31So glad somebody posted this. Thank you
  • codemonkeysteve, on 10/10/2007, -15/+58For some, playing chess would be torture.
    • lordmetroid, on 10/10/2007, -8/+25So they play something else... I don't think specificly playing chess was critical to the strategy, rather to make the prisoner feel welcomed, safe and among friends.
      • noumuon, on 10/10/2007, -2/+22that was an amazing way to ruin a joke... well done.
        • Sinudeity, on 10/11/2007, -1/+0I agree.
          "So they play something else".
          Dugg all of you idiots down.
    • Sinudeity, on 10/10/2007, -5/+1Hehehe, funnny.
    • netant, on 10/10/2007, -1/+5Makes me wonder if they went with the Ruy Lopez Spanish Inquisition, or brought in the Sicilian to finish the job. I hear those Eastern Europeans can be tough (yet subtle) too.
  • hiphoc, on 10/15/2007, -8/+84Torture is about getting misleading evidence so the threat of terror can be overblown and be used as a reason to pass horrible laws and be an excuse to keep us "fightin' over there so they dont come over here". Bush needs a new spy law? Release some information gotten from torture, or bring up some patsies and charge them for crimes that they dont have the money or intelligence to commit. It will get front page news, laws gets passed America dies a little more. The adminstration gets new photo ops, more misleading information to fool the people and great propaganda for Fox, Rush and company.
  • alex7575, on 10/10/2007, -3/+76This kinda sums up the way I view life in general...

    Treat people like they're stupid, and sure enough, they'll act stupid.

    Treat people with respect, they'll act respectable.

    Doesn't work 100% of the time, but so far I'm still up...
    • Prathik89, on 10/11/2007, -41/+3What if people treat you like your stupid?
      • alex7575, on 10/10/2007, -0/+14They get dugg down, apparently.
      • arjie, on 10/10/2007, -0/+25If they treat me like my stupid, it would be very upset. My stupid doesn't like that at all.
    • Fallooza, on 10/10/2007, -0/+38it's "you're" stupid
    • M4tt3r, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1I think intelligent people give stupid people too much credit. I severely loathe stupid people, they don't use their ***** brain and people usually end up dying or getting seriously hurt. Car accidents are a prime example; I've never been in one where it was MY fault, and I've even saved stupid peoples lives by being mindful of my surroundings by entirely avoiding severe accidents. 3 months ago, I should have died, (lucky as hell too) but I saved their lives and mine. Which, I'm sure I'm not alone in this type of situation.
      • alex7575, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1wait...

        did you just say I'm intelligent? And here I was about to digg you down... :)
  • brokenspatula, on 10/11/2007, -16/+5What games would you suggest for a terrorist?
    • quaxon, on 10/10/2007, -1/+8left behind for starters.
    • zadadka, on 10/10/2007, -3/+3Hopscotch in a minefield.
    • Nogger, on 10/10/2007, -2/+11"terrorist" does not help you at all choosing a game. You simply look at the culture they are from. Or just ask the accused if they want a game to pass time.

      Chess, checkers, backgammon, whatever.
    • FiP0, on 10/10/2007, -1/+30Bomberman
      • YamiJim, on 10/20/2007, -3/+2i wish i could dig you up 7 more times.
        that is the funniest comment i have ever read.
    • gsherwood, on 10/10/2007, -0/+10Counter Strike
    • tgoose, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Tiddlywinks.
    • dildoolielly, on 10/10/2007, -14/+2FOXIFIED ZOMBIE NUTJOB IDIOT ALERT!
      the same brainwashed wackjob inbred redneck fools who still think Saddam had WMDs, attacked us on 911 and have picture of Bush on their nightstand are comin' out of the woodwork!!
    • adooga, on 10/10/2007, -1/+11You didn't really understand the article, did you?
    • maninthespoon, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Jenga?
    • Skooma714, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2How many lights are behind me, human?
  • whatthefu, on 10/10/2007, -1/+53Civilizations that thrive on intellectuality will use their wits to interrogate someone and be logical with them, rather than give them the sensation that they're drowning. I guess we don't thrive on intellectuality anymore.
    • WhiteRaven, on 10/10/2007, -32/+1Who told you that being logical with thugs gets you anywhere?

      If you were actually "intellectual", you would understand that logic and reason have essentially no influence on the human animal. We are creatures of emotion and instinct. The rational mind is a minor adjunct that has no influence on behavior. It is used for *problem solving*... but the "problem" is defined by our emotional minds. We only exercise logic in the service of emotion (or in very abstract and meaningless exercises)

      By the way, knowing that the discomfort will stop when you cooperate *is* logical.
      • Nogger, on 10/10/2007, -0/+27Yes, and you tell them ANYTHING to stop. Whatever they want to hear, be it truth or not. Now that is valueble information you get there.
        • WhiteRaven, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1This is a myth. Because useful information is inherently verifiable AND because we retain control over the prisoners, they have a strong incentive to be truthful.
          • johnkalel, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2if that's a myth, then why do all these WWII vets and military strategists and US Army historians and sociologists studying torturers/victims all say that torture is not effective.
            Name one creditable authority who says that torture is an effective interrogation tool.
      • HairyFotr, on 10/10/2007, -0/+14If the personel at the camp are treating the prisoners with respect they might as well cooperate - the interrogaters can always beat them up later if they don't. Showing intelligence and kindness towards prisoners is also a small step towards peace - that prisoner finds out that there are normal human beings on the enemies side, too. But if you beat the prisoner up at the first sign of non-cooperation, then you are just enforcing the propaganda they've been fed: that everyone of their enemies is a brutal ***** who wants to kill you and they might even give their lives to protect what they know (like they were prepared to die in combat before they were captured).
        • WhiteRaven, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1"Might as well cooperate"???? What the hell kind of attitude is that? You are making the absolutely insane assumption that the prisoners have absolutely zero dedication to the cause for which they were fighting. Sure, there have been some forces in history like that. Conscripted soldiers have no loyalty to their cause. That's not what we're dealing with now. We are dealing with dedicated volunteers who are *willing* to die for their cause. We're not going to be able to change their minds by being nice to them.

          I don't know why you are talking about beating a prisoner. Our methods are aimed at making the miserable and depressed. Then, we bargin with them for minor concessions.
          • HairyFotr, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2I was talking in general... but if you are talking about terrorists in particular - then my comment is even more true - I hope you understand what makes a terrorist: they have been treated like ***** their entire lives... then someone gave them some comfort and respect, told them how great the afterlife would be, gave them a gun and convinced them it was the US (or Israel... or anyone for that matter) that caused all their misery in the past. Sure it would be very hard to change their minds a camp, but it sure beats (no pun intended) torturing them - if this info gets out (and it did/does get out) their leaders can use this fact as further "proof" that people in the US are "the great evil" or something like that. And POW are eventualy released, when the war is over - in this case I don't know where they could release them to, and how dangerous that would be but - if they were being tortured/mistreated they now hate the US, even if they didn't before.
      • adooga, on 10/10/2007, -0/+12Who told you that being a thug with people will get you anywhere?
      • insllvn, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Just so I am clear: we cannot be logical with thugs and torture is logical. Your words not mine.
        "Who told you that being logical with thugs gets you anywhere?"
        "By the way, knowing that the discomfort will stop when you cooperate *is* logical."
        • WhiteRaven, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1There is a difference between attempting to present logical arguments *to* a prisoner and confronting them with a situation that makes cooperation the logical AND physically relieving response.
      • atticus8, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1"logic and reason have essentially no influence on the human animal"
        How is anyone letting this one by? I'm pretty sure "logic and reason" are the human animal's only advantages against all the other animals. Judging by our population and success as a species, I think it has shown plenty of "influence".
  • WhiteRaven, on 10/10/2007, -29/+7I have a question... how does the guy know how much is gotten with "torture" today?
    • KingCook, on 10/10/2007, -1/+16That is besides the point ... People who are tortured eventually confess to whatever you want them to confess even if they did not have anything to do with what you are suspecting them about they will confess just to stop the pain
      • adnams, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6If you ***** beat this prick long enough, he'll tell you he started the goddamn Chicago fire, now that don't necessarily make it ***** so!
      • WhiteRaven, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1"Confess"? We're not looking for confessions. We are looking for useful information. Useful information is inherently verifiable. This means lies can be punished. Unlike you apparently, the prisoners realize this. Now, if they are still resisting, the can certainly lie. But, if they break they will reveal the *truth*. They no that telling a lie will lead to more suffering.

        So no, a broken interrogation subject will not say anything to make it stop because they know lies will only make it worse. Go ahead... think it through yourself. We are not looking for an empty admission of guilt... we are looking for intelligence that is of use in the field. False intelligence proves itself to be false and we can go back to the lying prisoner and use that information against them.
        • funkyjunk3, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2A person under extraordinary mental and physical strain does NOT think straight. Even if someone yells at them saying they can be punished later for lying, they will say anything to stop the pain NOW. Primal instincts kick in at this point. NO MORE is it a matter of rational thought, it is a matter of survival from pain RIGHT NOW.
          • WhiteRaven, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1You aren't thinking straight yourself. Not only is it a rational response to tell the truth, it is also the most natural and quickest response. Coming up with a lie while under the stresses you are describing is contrary to the primal instincts you speak of.

            Primal instincts will tell the truth for the simple reason that the truth is already known and does not have to be invented on the spot.
    • HairyFotr, on 10/10/2007, -2/+21That guy played a game of chess with the people that do the interrogation now.
  • Kyrgizion, on 10/10/2007, -3/+15"Chess with Hess". They coulda made it a whole new concept.
  • NinjaPig, on 10/10/2007, -14/+2no doubt this is a great article, but i have to agree with what ron paul said, "the politics and senses of the middle east are irrational"(he mite be quoting raegan). The mindsets in the middle east are driven by religion, i really doubt we can get something out of them by playing chess.
    • zybch, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4Well we know that we get a lot less that even THAT by torturing people!
    • clothmonkey, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Question: Anybody care to guess where chess came from? Google shatranj if you're serious...
  • mal1964, on 10/10/2007, -3/+13The PBS series "The War" had a America soldier saying that the Germans on the front line stop fighting so we could play a game of baseball. I forget the details behind the story, but I thought that was incredible.
    • SillyRabbits, on 10/11/2007, -17/+7Wow! So you saw this show that had something about war and baseball and soldiers, but you don't remember what it was about it that was great - but is was great. Thanks for that great story!

      So, I had this friend that did this wonderful thing for me one time. I don't remember what it was, but I remember thinking it was great. He was an awesome friend!
      • mal1964, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2LOL that made my top ten loudest laughs. but I don't know the details about the other nine.
    • zybch, on 10/10/2007, -1/+19There are many documented events like this taking place on christmas day for example.
      • supermanred, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1US and German soldiers once paused for Christmas and sang Christmas carols together simultaneoulsy in both languages.
    • Ramble, on 10/10/2007, -7/+2And I was always told it was football.
      Sounds like *****.
    • preisler, on 10/10/2007, -0/+19http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce
    • Typhoon2009, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Yes siree, back in WWI they had a truce during Christmas where nobody fired. Goes to show that it's usually the politicians who are the bad guys, not the soldiers.
  • dildoolielly, on 10/10/2007, -5/+33How come Alqueda has 100 masterminds and the GOP doesnt even have one?

    "Torture a Muslim for Jebus!!"

    Right, Nutbags?!
    • card51short, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2that is, if you think they are all doing this on accident.
      Yeah, they got into the highest places of power in the world but they are just bumbling idiots who can't get anything right. Either that, or everything they wrote about before getting into office (i.e.: Project for a New American Century's Rebuilding America's Defenses) has come true. I suggest all the dems who think the repubs are just a bunch of idiots to see what they wrote about before taking office.
      Bush may be a dumb bell but he runs absolutely nothing.
  • mrrealtime, on 10/10/2007, -5/+47Evangelicals love torture, they are taught it in spectacular detail in the Bible, and they are taught from a young age to abhor nudity and sex, but crave blood and sacrifice, any form of violence really, as it signifies the "end times". So, the logical extension is, a state where torture is encouraged. The real problem is, like a cult being lead by a twisted, violent leader, Evangelical christianity needs to be treated as a sickness in society.
    • dfarq, on 10/10/2007, -14/+3I fit the definition of an evangelical Christian and I take issue with this comment. Bloody, old-testament-style sacrifices have no place in evangelical Christianity, or any Christianity. That ritual pointed toward Christ. It was replaced by Holy Communion (aka the Eucharist, if you come from a Roman Catholic background). The whole idea of Christianity is that GOD shed blood (HIS OWN blood) and suffered himself, so that we wouldn't have to. Substitution. Period.

      Few evangelicals I know look forward to the End Times, because if you actually read the Bible (and I have read it cover-to-cover), there's nothing pleasant happening in the End Times. It'll be nice when it's over, but if we had a choice, most of us would choose for our lives to occur entirely before the End Times happen.

      The Bible actually spends more time talking about money than it spends talking about what's going to happen in the future. But that isn't its main premise either. Most of what the Bible is talking about is the dual idea of "Love God with all your heart, soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself." The bad things that happen in the Bible are illustrations of what happens when people don't do those two things.

      Do I believe that God punishes people, or uses other people as agents of his wrath? Yes, sometimes. But I believe usually there's no need. The natural consequences of our actions are usually enough. If anything, I think God in his mercy often intervenes and lessens the blow of those consequences.

      Not all of us believe the stuff that the "Left Behind" books talk about. "Left Behind" is based on questionable theology, and the concept of a Rapture originiated in the United States in the 18th century. It makes for much better sci-fi than traditional interpretations of scripture. The ads for those books promote co-author Tim LaHaye as a Bible scholar, but he is not universally regarded as such. Sales of his books should not be interpreted as an endorsement for his belief system.

      Most Christians I know oppose this war too. We don't necessarily talk about it a lot. But it's about as easy to find a Christian who thinks this war is illegal as it is a non-Christian. I know some evangelical Christians who were bailing on Bush in 2004, voting for third-party candidates who had some of the same ideas as Ron Paul. My pastor certainly distanced himself from Bush, and any presidential candidate who ran on Christianity. He said that when things go wrong (and it will, because something goes wrong with every presidency), people will blame it on Christianity.

      That's obviously what's happening here.
      • mushoo, on 10/10/2007, -1/+8All that is nice and good but until you drown out and depose those other Christian, Evangelical, or christist voices your point doesn't matter since those other assholes are taking action.
        This goes for everyone.
        It's sickening how when someone ***** up or does some crazy, evil, or stupid ***** they're no longer part of our cult.
        As long as people keep using the excuse that someone is not a true fellow cultist because what they're doing is patently heinous they have no reason to complain about how their cult is getting a bad name.
        • dfarq, on 10/10/2007, -3/+1Sorry, you lost me when you resorted to name-calling and stereotyping rather than pointing out anything verifiable that backs up your argument.
      • netant, on 10/10/2007, -3/+3Take a tip from history.
        Hang a naked effigy of GWB on a meathook in front of a church, while publicly defacing it, if you want people to take your protestations seriously.
        • dfarq, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1There are more productive uses of our time and energy. Building houses in New Orleans was the cause du jour today.
      • reddikilowatt, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6Estimated income from the [left behind] movies alone has totaled at least a reported $100 million -- and Hollywood is watching closely. - http://www.usaweekend.com/06_issues/060604/060604c ...

        Sadly, end times has always been a big business. It has all the allure of a private club, mystery, eternal life, and a huge down side if you don't follow. And since we know how it all turns out in the end, why not skip ahead and get on with it.

        http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10052007/watch2. ... is a piece about CUFI - Christians United for Israel, and their influence over politics in Washington. These people are obsessed with end times prophesy and believe they are going to bring it about in their lifetimes. Sadly, these are the same sort of people who scared the heck out of my generation in the 1980s telling us that the "evil empire" was run by the Antichrist and that the USSR will fire first. The enemy du jour may change, but the message is the same.

        It sounds like you have good leadership in your church, but I'm sure there are some who have read the books and believe. It wouldn't take much, maybe a guest speaker or two, to get this sort of thing happening. And practice trust and verify with your church's finances. If they are using any money for lobbying efforts, or sending money to some organization, make sure YOU know that and are OK with it. I personally don't want any of my charity going to lobby anyone in Washington, no matter what the cause.
        • dfarq, on 10/10/2007, -2/+2Occasionally the eschatological monster comes to visit, and inevitably what happens is either the people who get too caught up in it either leave, or they straighten themselves up and start putting their energy behind something that really matters. We don't send money to Washington; we prefer to use our money to build (and fill) affordable housing in depressed neighborhoods.

          While the groups you speak of are loud and vocal, I suggest you do some Googling around to see what Lutherans and Catholics, to mention two large mainline denominations, think of the groups who overemphasize the End Times. They aren't the only groups who have something to say counter to it, but they are probably the most prolific.
      • AzBats, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2"It'll be nice when it's over," - i agree (even though it'll never happen ever) since all the sane people will be able to kick start humanity w/o religion getting in the way.
        • dfarq, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1You imply that I'm insane? Please point out something I said that was insane. (I would have thought I would get at least some credit for mentioning Ron Paul...)
          • AzBats, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1I'm all for there being strong "third-parties" but libertarianism is just not my cup of joe and I'm not a Paulite (see previous comments I've made in pro-Ron Paul news items.)
            I don't believe you to be totally nuts just insane in the way that you say you are a Christian even though you don't believe in what God does 100%. Isn't this God ' all-knowing' and 'awesome' in its omnipotent nature and therefore does everything right? Surely doubting such a being even 0.0001% is somewhat contradictory and coming close to insane.
    • MercFox1, on 10/11/2007, -4/+2"Evangelicals love torture, they are taught it in spectacular detail in the Bible, and they are taught from a young age to abhor nudity and sex, but crave blood and sacrifice, any form of violence really, as it signifies the "end times". So, the logical extension is, a state where torture is encouraged. The real problem is, like a cult being lead by a twisted, violent leader, Evangelical christianity needs to be treated as a sickness in society."

      This is one of the most inflammatory remarks I've ever seen on Digg. The comment alone isn't a big deal, but 33 diggs? Come on, Digg, you're better than this. The tidbit that blood and violence are craved because it will bring about the end times is terribly stupid, and shows a lot about how good your reading comprehension skills are.
      Cripes, I would have preferred you say something like "Faldwell dances a jig whenever a terrorist is tortured." because that at least allows that incredibly thoughtless generalization of yours to make me laugh, instead, I'm forced to tell you to pull your head out of your ass and your dick out of your sister.
  • oneredeye, on 10/10/2007, -22/+3Dammit, these aren't German officers, scientists ,and submariners being tortured in Guantanamo Bay. They're suicidal terrorist grunts and they simply won't succumb to a game of ping-pong.
    • zybch, on 10/10/2007, -2/+10You know this for a fact??
    • vertinox, on 10/10/2007, -0/+9If you torture someone long enough they'll make ***** up. One of the reasons the Cambodian genocide was so prolific is that the system got out of hand. Basically it all started out when they grabbed a few people and were told by Pol Pots men to torture them into they confess because they must be guilty.

      So the guards at the camps tortured these people who most likely didn't have any idea how to revolt against Pol Pot even if they wanted to. Eventually, the people being tortured just started off naming anyone they knew including friends, parents, spouses, and their own kids as conspirators because that is what the torturers kept asking for.

      So then the guards go "holy crap! there is a conspiracy" and they go out and grab the people that the original tortured named and then torture them and they list more names and the next thing you know the vicious circle has literally everyone in the nation in a concentration camp and the guards are working 24/7 in tortures and executions.

      The point being is that if you torture someone, even guilty people, they tend to make stuff up which may impede in your investigation especially when the torture victim is misinformed as it is.
    • reddikilowatt, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Yea, anyone who speaks German can't be bad.
  • asdfff, on 10/10/2007, -5/+16I'm not going to justify torture here, but the thing is: any retarded army monkey can be trained to torture someone, but there are only so many MIT physicists who can interpret personalities by playing chess.

    Which one do you think a country can produce faster, more cheaply, in greater numbers? Great chess players with connections who can double as psychiatrists? Or torture-capable monkeys?
    • pintomp3, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5true, you can train anyone to torture, but the point is the information gained from it is useless. they only tell you want you want to hear to make the pain stop.
    • spurtle, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4I'm sure this country has other pretty good schools besides MIT. If the gov't renounces torture and pledges to treat its prisoners humanely, some of these universities and colleges would become less hostile to recruiters.
    • arjie, on 10/10/2007, -2/+3You use monkeys to fight your wars? That explains how they're going now.
      • PoeticExplosion, on 10/10/2007, -0/+8Monkeys actually traditionally end up in our top leadership.
        • clothmonkey, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2This is true, I have posted on monkey Congress and monkey elections before...
        • arjie, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Ha, your animals are no match for ours. We have kangaroo courts.
  • justok, on 10/10/2007, -10/+3Rudolf Hess was a typical Nazi. Typical person. Yup Yup Yup.
    • workharderscum, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5I guess the point is that these guys thought about the person they were interrogating and used this knowledge, along with their wits, to get the prisoner to reveal information.

      Rather than just labelling everyone as a "typical terrorist" and throwing then in guantanamo.
  • vwvan, on 10/10/2007, -3/+21Evangelical Christianity itself has become sick. Just ask Johnny Cash. God 'ell cut ya down.
  • nick111, on 10/10/2007, -1/+22The point of torture is seldom to extract information (except in movies)

    There are generally two reasons for it

    - one is an unaccountable culture that's got out of hand - as per Milgram's experiments in the 70s [1]
    - the other is to terrorize a local population that might be harbouring dissidents. This is why a lot of the people tortured in Central America as a result of Reagan Administration foreign policy were actually school teachers, priests and aid workers - not fighters, or people with "information".

    Torture is a terror tactic.



    [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_exper ...
    • ClosedCaption, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Its not torture when we do it
  • WaltDismal, on 10/10/2007, -4/+7Torture is a brute force method anyway. Modern drugs can be used to lower conscious resistance, and once a prisoner's self-censorship ability is weakened, he will very likely let some things slip. It doesn't even take serious psych drugs either. Haven't you ever seen someone drunk start to babble and say things they'd never say if sober? So the need to torture many prisoners, especially fanatics, is baloney. If you took a fanatic, someone really dedicated with hatred, if you get them angry enough and under drugs that loosen inhibition, they can make boastful claims and reveal some truths.
    Bush denying that our methods involve torture is making a statement about his own shabby moral standards. He may not consider something torture, but anyone NOT a sociopath like him would. I am ashamed that the supposedly elected leader of this country is no better than a brutal thug. But all the members of Congress, with their hands out for graft, are not much better.
    • yahoofrom, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1dude are you saying drug should be legal?
  • DestroyFascism, on 10/10/2007, -4/+17Americans these days are too arrogant to think people might actually talk over a cup of tea...you just never know what you can do with words and body language,,,dick heads...
    • nastronomical, on 10/10/2007, -7/+2Ok..In fantasy Libby Land that works. however, in reality it doesnt..
    • yahoofrom, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Yeah, G. W. Bush is not him. G. W. Bush is "they".
  • insonh, on 10/10/2007, -19/+1Great! Next time we’re at war with Germany we can play chess with the POW’s and get information.

    Someone mentioned Ken Burns “The War” about how the Germans let us play Base Ball

    Whoop de friggin do!

    Apparently you missed the comment by one of the Veterans who said…

    The Japanese solider was better and far more dangerous then the German solider, if you surrounded a German solider he would surrender…

    If you surrounded a Japanese solider he would fight to the death!

    The European campaign was still considered a gentleman’s war compared to the fighting done in the Pacific which was far more brutal.

    Point being this article is misleading, you can sit down and play chess with fanatics and expect then to hand out information, they’ll take it as weakness and lie to your face.
    • vertinox, on 10/10/2007, -0/+10Actually, I remember a story about the American officer assigned to interrogate Japanese soldiers said he found that they were fairly easy to get to talk. Mostly since, it was rare when they captured one, they had no one to talk to and they were easy to befriend since they felt ashamed but yet their captors was spending the time to actually talk with them.

      That and the Japanese soldier felt that he was dead to his society anyways... So there wasn't anything else to loose by talking.
  • pianonotes1010, on 10/10/2007, -8/+4Yeah, but I can stick an ice pick through a guys testicles when I'm torturing him. Can't do that in chess.
    • netant, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Plus, you'd win more chess games if you could do that to your prisoner.
    • workharderscum, on 10/10/2007, -0/+7You have obviously never played X-treme Chess - two kings enter, one king leaves.
      • clothmonkey, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3No, both kings leave, but one has lost his crown jewels.
  • skyz, on 10/10/2007, -0/+11men of integrity
  • sambapati87, on 10/10/2007, -10/+0And this old man would know HOW what kind of information we're getting?
  • w3bsmith, on 10/10/2007, -0/+9I could actually respect these men.
  • pintomp3, on 10/10/2007, -0/+22torturing someone for information is the equivalent of raping someone for sex.
  • nastronomical, on 10/10/2007, -11/+1I have a question... how does the guy know how much is gotten with "torture" today?
    • macweirdo42, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Simple... There's no evidence anywhere that torture is an effective tool for gathering information, therefore we can conclude that the answer is none. Don't be stupid, and have a nice day.
  • obxjdt, on 10/10/2007, -1/+9Good article. I remember seeing an interview with a U.S. P.O.W. He said the Germans tried all kinds if torture techniques on him to find out about munitions. He never broke. After he healed, a German officer took him for a walk, and simply asked him for the info they wanted. He gave it to him. They wanted to know why we used 2 colors on our tracer rounds. He told him it's so we know when we need to reload.
    • jasqwerty, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1***** and absolute *****. Lie more
  • MJG2007, on 10/10/2007, -0/+20There is another benefit to what these men are suggesting. Not everyone we happen to pick up and ship to Gitmo is a terrorist or involved in terrorism.

    If we do end up saying "Our bad, we got the wrong guy here." after torturing them, you can rest assured that when we do release them, they are going to tell everyone that everything the radicals are saying about the US is true.

    If we treat them as human beings, there's a good chance if send them back they are going to say "Hey, the Americans treated me well and maybe they aren't the evil civilization like the radicals are claiming."
    • insllvn, on 10/10/2007, -0/+10I had never thought of it from that angle but you make a strong point. There are better ways to conquer your enemies than to kill or maim them. Prove them wrong.
    • Mindzai, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2Common sense, rationality, and compassion...I love it!
  • zensmile, on 10/10/2007, -7/+1Yawn.
  • FluffyWolf, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2Oh come on, you can make anyone confess to anything during a ping pong game...
  • insllvn, on 10/10/2007, -0/+9Let us put aside for the moment the issue of whether or not torture is an effective means of interrogation. Is that the sort of country America wants to be? A state governed by the axioms of the Machiavelli? The ends justify the means? To my fellow Americans: will safety from radical Islam be worth the price if we destroy America's soul in the process? To the rest of the world('s diggers): what could we now do to reestablish America's image as, if not a benevolent force in the world, at least a respected member of the international community?

    To be clear I believe in American sovereignty, but that sovereignty is not a one way street. At the time of the Iraq war, when I was being told by my government that Iraq had WMD's and Iraq was acting guilty as sin so I believed my government at the time (wow things have changed) I supported the war. I am now convinced that that was a mistake. I made a judgment based on fear and I was wrong. I am now convinced that the idea of a preemptive strike is a foolish one. to maintain the moral high ground we must act defensively, lashing out with great vengeance and furious anger only in retaliation. An example of a justified attack would be the response to 9/11 ie going in to Afghanistan. Even that once impressive victory (I remember the world standing in awe of our victory were the Soviets before us had failed) is now teetering on the edge of disaster because of our foolish foray in Crusadary.

    What sort of country has America become? Is it still worth defending? We have tarnished the light from the city on the hill. We have forgotten to avoid foreign entanglements and we are now little more than petulant bullies.

    "Walk softly and carry a big stick." - Theodore Roosevelt
    • card51short, on 10/11/2007, -6/+2very intelligent post. Although I strongly urge you to check out 9/11. I'm not gonna give you a bunch of facts...just have a look at it.
      I suggest starting at:
      www.patriotsquestion911.com
      www.ae911truth.org
      www.911mysteries.com

      And your search will lead from there. Watch all the 100s of documentaries. Read the 100s of books. Read the official story.
  • cheekybastard, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4What version of Christianity OKs torture? Do they use the King James Redacted Version bible to justify their faith?
    "Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." - Thomas Paine
    • clothmonkey, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2For any given religion, there are going to be people armed with holy documents and sharpies to strike out the parts they don't like. It's a revolting form of hypocrisy.
    • Plotinus, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Exodus 21:20-21
      If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

      So not only is beating okay provided you don't kill 'em, so is slavery. Yay! Go you morally superior Baptists.
      • yahoofrom, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1If I could meet Martin Luther King, I wish to ask that question "What do you think of Exodus 21:20-21. seems your God supports slavery."
  • nartvq, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4Just an observation. I think the broad assumption here is that the US military uses water boarding and other "enhanced" interrogation techniques as the rule rather than as the exception. I don't think anyone here, myself included, really know how life is as a "typical" Gitmo prisoner. Anyone got a link to a blog written by a family member who's brother/father/son is in there?
    • jasqwerty, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1One thing we know, under the EVIL EVIL GREAT SATAN every single one of them has gotten fatter while in Gitmo.
  • tsotha, on 10/10/2007, -7/+2What a load of crap. This guy has no way of knowing how much information we're getting out of interrogation subjects. From what I can see we've been getting a lot of good intel, since entire networks have been rolled up after one or two captures.
    • macweirdo42, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4Are you really that stupid? Christ, think before opening your goddamn mouth, you're an embarrassment. More importantly, do a little research, and you'd come to the conclusion that torture is NOT an effective means of information-gathering. I mean, forget the ethics, even if you thought it was perfectly acceptable to torture people to stop terrorist plots or whatever, there's no point.

      But forget it, this is what the world is coming to. Nobody actually cares about the truth anymore, it's all about what "feels" true. Our whole society is going down the ***** because morons like you have decided that "gut feelings" are more important than facts.
      • samk, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0Exactly what facts do you have to support your position?

        I oppose torture for 1) moral reasons, and 2) the international repercussions of having a torture policy. But it seems clear that everyone who is in a position to know agrees that the current interrogation policy has been effective.

        George Tenet said that it's been more effective in preventing terrorist attacks than the combined efforts of the CIA, NSA, and FBI. That's a pretty bold statement, and from someone who would know. I don't know of anyone knowledgeable, such as a Democratic Senator on the Intelligence Committee, who disputes that it's effective.

        More specifically, the Administration has claimed that waterboarding Khalid Sheik Mohammed led to the arrests of many al Qaeda members and to the disruption of multiple terror plots. Again, no one on the Intelligence Committees disputed that. It seems that the people who argue that torture is ineffective don't have access to the big picture classified intelligence, and the knowledgeable people who oppose torture do so for other reasons.
        • Mindzai, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1What terror plots? I'm curious to know of foiled terror plots that weren't helped to occur by the feds.
    • atticus8, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1You say "this guy has no way of knowing how much information we're getting" but you seem to think you know that "entire networks have been rolled up after one or two captures". The real issue is that we are all, to differing but similar degrees, left in the dark here, because our governments treats us like children (at best), on a strictly need-to-know basis. They are always the ones deciding if we need to know, and (apparently) we never do. All we are told by our government is to shop - carry on as if everything was how it was when it's not.
  • jabberwolf, on 10/10/2007, -4/+3Wait they captured soldiers, that had no idea what Germany was doing, and had no anti-interrogation training.

    And they are comparing them to crazy terrorists, that know exactly what their goals are, have had training against interrogation, and are on a fricken holy war and blow themselves up regularly for its cause.
    Um yeah, just a weeee bit of difference here!

    So psychological torture is out now? Can we still put them on "its a small world after all" ride at Disneyland 200 times or is that against the Geneva convention?
    • bromac, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1You're ***** stupid. They captured Rudolf Hess, Hitler's deputy, and other prominent Generals.

      And you really think that a Muslim fanatic is worse than a Nazi?

      You ***** cowards. When was the last time a terrorist attack actually affected your life?

      Here's an idea. Don't do cruel and unusual punishment. That includes Disneyland or whatever ***** up things YOU think of. It doesn't help get information out of people. It only satisfies your own sadism. Psycho torture, physical torture, hell, doing the most annoying sound in the world from Dumb and Dumber would be just an unethical.

      Try asking them QUESTIONS. I hear that's a way of getting information out of people.
      • WhiteRaven, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1You have been lied to. Strenuous, forceful interrogations DO work.

        Why would anyone who voluntarily joined a terrorist group or militia tell you anything just because you ask? These people are dedicated to their cause. Maybe you have absolutely no spine but other people do. They will just laugh in your pathetic face.
  • Skooma714, on 10/10/2007, -5/+1So we shall play a game of chess, pressing lidless eyes and waiting for another 9/11
  • Tr0w, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Good article.
  • HanSolo69, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5I dated a girl who was related to Rudolph Hess. She didn't like chess.
  • TheNewNumberTwo, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0I for one, welcome our new Chess Master overlords.
  • marcomc2, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Now THAT is badass, people. Not Beating the ***** out of innocent people and screaming,"You are Al-Qaeda!!" WTF
  • ZenMojo, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1The best part...if they don't actually know anything and we get the wrong guy, at least he won't go back home and BECOME a terrorist. Maybe a terror on the old black and whites, though....
  • kd1s, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Look at police interrogation techniques. The best of them involved engaging the suspect, not torturing them.
    This hawks in this administration don't get it.
    • johngr, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1You've been watching too many cop shows on TeeVee.
      • kd1s, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Not really. I worked with prosecutors and police officers and learned the tactics used there.
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