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- JenniferInMO, on 11/17/2008, -2/+27Anyone who is willing to sacrifice so much to serve in our military should be given the utmost respect from his/her country and that needs to be reflected in policy.
I really feel for Obama. We have so many problems, so many unjust laws and policies and the country is a mess right now. Many of the issues are controversial, but cannot stay in limbo or be delayed for too long. This is yet another matter that needs to be addressed a.s.a.p., but I don't envy him having to get into such a hotbed area right away. Clinton was nailed on this when he tried to abolish the "don't ask, don't tell" policy immediately after his inauguration.- faithhealer, on 11/18/2008, -0/+1Actually, Clinton created "don't ask, don't tell". Before that, gays were banned from serving in the military altogether.
- BuddyOne, on 11/18/2008, -12/+2What's gay about anal sex between men? I need a little help here.
- Anomaly100, on 11/18/2008, -1/+14I would think that we have evolved enough as human beings to get past the stereotypes on gay men and women. I never understood the problem. We're at war and if someone wants to fight for our country, why should we be concerned about who they show love to in their private personal lives? What do they think is going to happen? Perhaps they're afraid that the entire military will become gay because of this strong influence or perhaps they'll jump the bones of all the new guys coming in when no one is looking!/s Come on!! Am I missing something here? WHAT is the problem with gay men or women in the military?
- defconoi, on 11/18/2008, -3/+6dugg, but, being in the military myself, living with a gay guy that stares at you and says sexual things is rediculous, I once thought that they should be with the woman, but if gay men are allowed to look at men in the shower why not just mix and match everyone? Its like a girl is living with the men. I dont know what to think/say anymore
- defconoi, on 11/18/2008, -1/+7if anything they just need to keep that private or keep their eyes comments to their selves
- JenniferInMO, on 11/18/2008, -0/+3That is disconcerting. You should not have to deal with someone looking at you and making sexual comments. That is sexual harassment and should not be tolerated. Women are separated out, but I am sure there are issues with lesbians who cross the line as well.
It is a quandary. I'm sure if the don't ask, don't tell rules were lifted there would be many gay people who would keep their private information private.
So we have conflicting rights, both equally important. GLB should be able to serve without having to worry that their personal lives are discovered thus risking their career. BUT you should be able to feel comfortable that you won't be sexually harassed. How do you suggest it be handled?
I recently read that an estimated 1 in 7 women serving in the military have been sexually assaulted. It sounds like the procedures for investigating and punishing offenders are too lax. Perhaps that system needs to be strengthened and it should include same sex assaults as well.
Is is feasible to have shifts in the shower? And is the shower the only place where there is a major issue? I haven't served, so I don't know if that is an option.- JenniferInMO, on 11/18/2008, -0/+2After reading these comments and thinking about it I have changed my mind a bit. Everyone in the military, male, female, gay or straight deserves to serve without having to pretend to be something they are not just so other people feel more comfortable.
By the same token, sexual harassment by anyone against anyone should not be tolerated. I have a feeling that most men who claim they get looked at by gay guys in the shower may be oversensitive to the issue. I have not been in a men's shower, but from what I hear men usually keep their eyes forward but talk about sex all the time (in or out of the shower). I say deal with it unless and until it becomes sexual harassment.
The military in general has a horrible reputation for investigating sexual harassment and penalizing the harassers. That needs to change regardless of the outcome of the "don't ask, don't tell policy."
- JenniferInMO, on 11/18/2008, -0/+2After reading these comments and thinking about it I have changed my mind a bit. Everyone in the military, male, female, gay or straight deserves to serve without having to pretend to be something they are not just so other people feel more comfortable.
- NinaOdell, on 11/18/2008, -1/+6It's a flawed pieced of legislation to be sure - in part because various groups have used our men and women in the armed forces (bless them) quite callously to challenge this very law. They've destroyed lives in the process.
Repealing "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" doesn't do what should be done, which is to fully allow members of LGBT community to serve in the Armed Forces. Until there is the political and popular will to make that happen, I'm for keeping what little safeguard there is.
I've been sorta/kinda following this for a few years, and there appears to be a general softening of intolerance and violence against everyone, with Lesbians and Gays being in the particular.
However, I still have concerns about the safety of these folks in the Armed Forces , and I find the most repugnant form or death or injury to at the hands of one's own Countrypeople. I will never forget Barry Winchell.- NinaOdell, on 11/18/2008, -0/+1CORRECTION - when I said "softening", I specifically meant within the military.
- defconoi, on 11/18/2008, -3/+5In the military men and woman are separated from each other because of their sexuality are they not? They sleep in different quarters, maybe they should now combine the sex's and sexualities? Having the gay men with straight men is like having a woman with the men or a man with the woman. Do people this is ok? Lines need to be drawn somewhere, because gay men discomfort men in the military a great deal in private. They will definately need to keep their gayness a secret I would think and dont look/stare/make sexual comments, because a great deal of gay men in the military have been known to do those things which causes great discomfort. Im all for gay rights, maybe something can be arranged or people will not care about these things anymore.
- Batfishy, on 11/18/2008, -0/+5Okay, so you are "all for gay rights" as long as there isn't any discomfort involved and they keep their gayness (I don't know what that means, sorry) to themselves? And "a great deal of gay men in the military" have been known to look, stare and otherwise make people uncomfortable? Prove that, please. Got a link because I'm not quite sure I believe, you.
- joand315, on 11/18/2008, -0/+7Well, I served in the military. We often worked, ate and slept together (?) for weeks or even months on end, with no other company. I'd have to say that being gay is pretty hard secret for someone to keep in those kind of close quarters. Someone would have to make up a whole fantasy life about themselves, and would have to lie about almost every thought. That's quite a burden to put on someone.
I've heard some horror stories about how gays were treated in the Army or on board ship, but we didn't have any incidents like that where I worked.
I hadn't really heard or witnessed about any type of behaviour as described by defconoi. We all looked out for each other. I think that's a testament to our leadership.
- joand315, on 11/18/2008, -0/+7Well, I served in the military. We often worked, ate and slept together (?) for weeks or even months on end, with no other company. I'd have to say that being gay is pretty hard secret for someone to keep in those kind of close quarters. Someone would have to make up a whole fantasy life about themselves, and would have to lie about almost every thought. That's quite a burden to put on someone.
- defconoi, on 11/18/2008, -2/+1I see that you asked for a link, here you go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense it should be the only link you need to read/learn. I cant link to first hand experiences.
- thepoliticalcat, on 11/18/2008, -0/+3Defconoi, I find (in my own personal experience) that younger men don't get as affected by this asll me that they feel like that around str8 men of my generation or older. Male friends of my own age have said that being stared at or having comments made by gay men about them make them very uncomfortable, but younger men seem to find it flattering if a gay man looks at them or confesses an attraction to them. Or maybe that's just because I live in a liberal enclave.
In teh event, my women friends temen and find gay men very comfortable to be around because they know they are not going to get hit on.
- Batfishy, on 11/18/2008, -0/+5Okay, so you are "all for gay rights" as long as there isn't any discomfort involved and they keep their gayness (I don't know what that means, sorry) to themselves? And "a great deal of gay men in the military" have been known to look, stare and otherwise make people uncomfortable? Prove that, please. Got a link because I'm not quite sure I believe, you.
- JoanHolloway, on 11/18/2008, -0/+8Gays and lesbians have been able to serve openly in the Canadian Forces since 1992, and overall it has been a remarkable non-issue. Studies published at various times since 92 have shown no increase in harassment.
- Samadhi007, on 11/18/2008, -0/+3I wonder how much of that would carry over the the American military based solely on cultural differences.
- scottknick, on 11/18/2008, -0/+5What astonishes me is that so many people still think this is an issue of letting gays serve in the military -- "Should they shower with the straight guys" and blah blah blah. The fact is that thousands of them ARE serving in the military right now, many of them with distinction. They're not going anywhere. The only question is whether we need to continue to maintain bureaucratic denial to keep the homophobes happy. Should we keep forcing U.S. Soldiers to lie and cover up their sexual orientation, or should we all try to come out of denial? That's the only real question, and everything else is hot air.
- JoanHolloway, on 11/18/2008, -0/+3That's an excellent point - thanks for reminding us.
- sethisastud, on 11/18/2008, -0/+3I find it somewhat humorous that straight men think that all gay men will be all over them--women are attracted to men as well, I bet they're not hounding you non-stop. That's not really the way it works. As for the shower, I personally feel more self-conscious when I'm in a public shower (i.e. the gym) because I worry that the other men will think that I'm looking at them. I tend to stick to a corner stall and face the wall at all times. It has been my experience the perviest of men are the ones that claim they're straight and are most likely married.
- Christianptriot, on 11/18/2008, -0/+3As a 12-year Navy veteran, having lived in close quarters with shipmates who were known to be gay to pretty much anybody in the crew, including the leadership, it was for the most part a non-issue. Guys, if you are worried about another guy staring at you sexually, you then understand how women in the military feel when you stare at them with teh same disrespectful thoughts.
As a born-again Christian I believe homosexuality is immoral. So is divorce. So is adultery. This is not a religious issue, or a moral issue. In my mind none of those things preclude anyone from serving our country. The guys I knew who were gay had their boyfriends, friends and social endeavors that never interfered with anything I did on three ships and two shore assignments. They cut our hair, prepared or served our food, and stood beside you in life-threatening situations where you each could possibly have to depend on the other to save your life.
If they are going to ask if you are gay when you enlist, then they should ask if you have ever committed adultery - both are against the Uniform Code of Military Justice.- MJG2007, on 11/18/2008, -0/+3I don't agree that homosexuality is immoral, however, I do appreciate your thoughts on this matter.
If we went with, "Let he among you that is without sin be the only people allowed to enlist", our military would consist of no one.
Being gay is not a crime so gays should be allowed to serve.- Christianptriot, on 11/18/2008, -0/+2Have to Digg you up on your comment, and agree that it is not a crime. And no one should be criminalized for it. Followers of Jesus Christ are not called to judge the person for their behavior; rather we are to judge the behavior, and love the person in spite of it into repentance and salvation, if that person wants to accept the truth of Christ.
That is how Christ handled the angry mob and the woman caught in the act of adultery, to which you refer above. Point well taken.
- Christianptriot, on 11/18/2008, -0/+2Have to Digg you up on your comment, and agree that it is not a crime. And no one should be criminalized for it. Followers of Jesus Christ are not called to judge the person for their behavior; rather we are to judge the behavior, and love the person in spite of it into repentance and salvation, if that person wants to accept the truth of Christ.
- MJG2007, on 11/18/2008, -0/+3I don't agree that homosexuality is immoral, however, I do appreciate your thoughts on this matter.
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