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Ireland rejects EU treaty
guardian.co.uk — Ireland vote of no to ratifying proposed EU treaty puts the project in jeopardy around Europe
spidercon- 1530 diggs
- digg it
- dimplemonkey, on 06/14/2008, -20/+190While everyone was waiting for more iPhone news, the countries of Europe dodged another bullet.
- HallEffected, on 06/14/2008, -6/+18with the EU we should really just start saying "country of Europe" now
- Scynet, on 06/14/2008, -6/+10I'm not sure how well that applies when there are 23 official languages spoken in Europe. While English is somewhat of a de-facto language, most Europeans can't really even understand each others, especially older folks. I still prefer the word "union", as in a union of countries.
- rogue780, on 06/14/2008, -6/+11That will change. Just like how the United States went from an "are" to an "is" so shall the individual countries that comprise the European Union lose their uniqueness.
- nick111, on 06/15/2008, -0/+5If there was a special tickbox for this page - that only showed comments from people who had actually read the treaty, about 4 comments would be left.
There is significant evidence that the no vote was heavily influenced by American military contractors:
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/87311 - DiggMasterJ, on 06/15/2008, -2/+3I'm in your countries stealing your contracts.
- Irlande, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1@nick111
For quoting indymedia as a source you automatically lose the argument.
Seriously, its indymedia! They're about as reliable as a White House Press Release. Its just a coalition of enraged teenage socialists writing news stories with absolutely no understanding of events or public opinion.
- possiblyneil, on 06/14/2008, -5/+17Actually it would be more accurate to say the "United States of Europe".
Well that would be the case if we voted for the Lisbon treaty. Its great we didn't, more power to the people.- ka2err, on 06/15/2008, -1/+2Yes, great that we did not transfer power from the European Comission to the European Parlament because what we now have is so much more democratic...
- rebrad, on 06/15/2008, -2/+3It's good to see the 4th Reich (EU) get smacked in their bloated bureaucratic faces. The Irish were right in thinking that if the Lisbon Treaty was approved the administrators from Brussels would forget that they even exist.
- Scynet, on 06/14/2008, -6/+10I'm not sure how well that applies when there are 23 official languages spoken in Europe. While English is somewhat of a de-facto language, most Europeans can't really even understand each others, especially older folks. I still prefer the word "union", as in a union of countries.
- trumpcard, on 06/14/2008, -33/+5Bunch of ignorant irish terrorists.
- JettaMan, on 06/14/2008, -21/+22Notice the one country that is rejecting the EU also happens to have the fastest growing economy in Europe? Hmm, maybe that socialism/global government thing isn't all its cracked up to be.
- mlavergn, on 06/14/2008, -3/+22What in the hell are you talking about? Ireland is far-left socialist by US standards and it's easily outperforming our economy, so how exactly is it not all it's "cracked up to be"? Ireland voted against the accord because they didn't feel they would enough of a voice under it. Keep in mind that Ireland's economy is tiny compared to the EU members with the most "say" under the accord. Germany's economy is almost 20x the size of Ireland's. Even Spain's economy is 7x the size of Ireland's. Even population wise, Ireland is tiny compared to populations of the largest EU members. Make no mistake, this vote had nothing to do with socialism, it was a vote against getting policy decisions handed down by other larger EU members with larger economies and populations.
- digdug2020, on 06/14/2008, -3/+7... and you totally misread his comment. I think you might want to look at it again. You seem to have somehow gathered the opposite meaning to his intention.
- JettaMan, on 06/14/2008, -7/+7I'm glad you Europeans hang onto your socialism. It makes it so much easier to stay ahead of you. Ireland is booming because the USA decides to manufacture stuff there.
- Grummond, on 06/15/2008, -1/+7So Jettaman, why is Denmark's economy booming? There's no US involvement, and that country is very socialist (by US standards).
Maybe your right wing daddy lied to you? - fabthegerm, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2jettaman, 'you mean staying ahead of you' like in terms of health care or education? giggety!
- Neverclear, on 06/15/2008, -2/+4Ireland is definitely the hero of the USA today. You destroyed the EU... good work. Couldn't have done it better ourselves.
- mlavergn, on 06/14/2008, -3/+22What in the hell are you talking about? Ireland is far-left socialist by US standards and it's easily outperforming our economy, so how exactly is it not all it's "cracked up to be"? Ireland voted against the accord because they didn't feel they would enough of a voice under it. Keep in mind that Ireland's economy is tiny compared to the EU members with the most "say" under the accord. Germany's economy is almost 20x the size of Ireland's. Even Spain's economy is 7x the size of Ireland's. Even population wise, Ireland is tiny compared to populations of the largest EU members. Make no mistake, this vote had nothing to do with socialism, it was a vote against getting policy decisions handed down by other larger EU members with larger economies and populations.
- jwkpiano1, on 06/14/2008, -10/+2Bull.
- Goodfeeling32, on 06/14/2008, -10/+28Thanks Ireland, thanks France, Thanks the Netherlands, who all voted NO while all other european countries weren't given the possibility to vote on that treaty.
I have nothing against the EU, but there is a lack of communication between the elected deputies in the EU Parliament and the people from their country who voted for them.
We don't know what is being voted and those deputies are not taken accountable for what they vote.
The EU is like most empires : It tries to get as remote as possible from the people and then vote whatever they want because of the lack of information about what's going on.- dinostabOMG, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3Wouldn't that more accurately describe the European Commission? The European Parliament is one of the upsides of the EU, in my opinion, as generally they do represent the people when bureaucrats run away with things, and tend to stick up for human rights and civil freedoms when overzealous governments let the individual down.
- alanrice38181, on 06/15/2008, -1/+2You might want to check you sources. Ireland is the only country to have said no. So far all the other countries have said yes including France and the Netherlands, so im not sure why you are thanking them.
"while all other european countries weren't given the possibility to vote on that treaty."
All 27 countries in the EU are voting on it, maybe not a referendum to the people, but each country has a choice whether to ratify it.
"there is a lack of communication between the elected deputies in the EU Parliament and the people from their country who voted for them.
We don't know what is being voted and those deputies are not taken accountable for what they vote."
The MEPs (Members of the European Parliament) are voted by the people. Not governments but the actual people. If they don't represent the people's interests well enough they don't get re-elected, simple. Also all minutes from their meetings and the breakdown of their votes are online for anyone to see, so its clear what they are voting for and they are accountable for their actions. - dominikkom, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3France and Netherlands voted No to this treaty in 2005, but it was named the Reform Treaty before. Just goes to show the EU will push this through, even if not under the same name.
- logload, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1Damn, caught us off-guard
- HallEffected, on 06/14/2008, -6/+18with the EU we should really just start saying "country of Europe" now
- LewP, on 06/14/2008, -6/+42I saw this story and wondered how it would affect Ireland.
- mmccarthy, on 06/14/2008, -0/+33We don't know really. The treaty shouldn't pass unless its ratified by all 27 member states. We are the only one who put it to a vote as required by our constitution. Either they will try to push it through without our vote or they will look at making some concessions to Ireland to get it passed. In which case it will have to go to a vote again. And all the other 26 countries would have to agree with these concessions. Its complicated :D
- hiPpymIck, on 06/14/2008, -2/+17FTA
"The treaty was backed by nine out of 10 MPs in the Irish Dáil and all the main political parties, except Sinn Féin..
..the government of Brian Cowen, in office for only a few weeks, was felt to have run a complacent and lacklustre 'yes' campaign.
An odd and well-funded coalition of anti-European forces stole the headlines."
..sounds like a second vote could go the other way- igyigyigy, on 06/14/2008, -0/+13Except that the last treaty was rejected, put to a second vote and passed, which was seen as underhanded. I think the 'no' vote would actually be stronger if they re-ran the vote again.
- troelsbay, on 06/15/2008, -2/+4In that particular case, there will be put forward a new treaty, or an altered protocol, that simply writes Ireland out of the EU.
For the naysayers I say good luck with your economy when you face trade barriers from the rest of Europe, and when the American companies who have given you your growth, flees to a country inside of the EU. - jgtg32a, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3igyigyigy
If at first you don't succeed, start a massive advertising campaign and do it again and again until people just give in. - zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1troelsbay is definitly right: That plan is already one that is on the table. To be honnest, they should actually do that. Give people the choice wether they want to stay in the Union. And ***** them if they won't.
- thcobbs, on 06/14/2008, -10/+8Welcome to the founding of the United States of America. When the Articles of Confederation were drawn up, they put severe limits on the abilities to amend them (100% ratification of the states) This lead to many disagreements and, in the end, the Articles of Confederation to be replaced by the Constitution.
Welcome to 219 years ago in the United States of America. (when the Constitution ACTUALLY went into effect)- stopbrorape, on 06/14/2008, -1/+19Europe is fairly different than colonial America.
- Blg7, on 06/16/2008, -0/+0> Europe is fairly different than colonial America.
Thanks, +5 Inciteful for that comment. lol.
Parent is correct in their observation. This is actually bad news for america. We are becoming debt ridden and over extended at a time when another major power is just coming into formation.
Thank God for Eurosceptics!
- DuffyDirect, on 06/14/2008, -2/+6concessions to Ireland? what, a dozen software companies, a brand new highway system, and big box stores sprouting up all over the place isn't enough?
- hiPpymIck, on 06/14/2008, -2/+17FTA
- RyanMcCall, on 06/15/2008, -4/+6it would affect them for the worse
- Grummond, on 06/15/2008, -1/+8That's what they told us Danes. If we didn't ratify the Maastricht, we would suffer. Our economy would go down the *****, and unemployment rates would rise.
Guess what, we DIDN'T ratify the treaty, and it went the exact opposite way. Our economy is now booming and there's virtually no unemployment, we're actually trying to import people from other countries to fill out positions.
In fact, the european countries that chose to keep their economic independence, now have great economies.
Cooperation is fine, but the European Union has reached a point where the member states don't actually benefit from further integration. We need to stay firm, even when our politicians try to sell us the concept of a United States of Europe.
- Grummond, on 06/15/2008, -1/+8That's what they told us Danes. If we didn't ratify the Maastricht, we would suffer. Our economy would go down the *****, and unemployment rates would rise.
- mmccarthy, on 06/14/2008, -0/+33We don't know really. The treaty shouldn't pass unless its ratified by all 27 member states. We are the only one who put it to a vote as required by our constitution. Either they will try to push it through without our vote or they will look at making some concessions to Ireland to get it passed. In which case it will have to go to a vote again. And all the other 26 countries would have to agree with these concessions. Its complicated :D
- hobsdv, on 06/14/2008, -27/+155good
- laserviking, on 06/14/2008, -18/+8bad
- thcobbs, on 06/14/2008, -9/+1Indifferent?
- trenchcoat, on 06/14/2008, -2/+8Good...bad...I'm the guy with the gun.
- ICSU, on 06/14/2008, -8/+13good for hypocritical nationalists
They didn't reject subsidies. - Neverclear, on 06/15/2008, -5/+1mmmm... very good.
USA! USA! USA!
- laserviking, on 06/14/2008, -18/+8bad
- akpwnz, on 06/14/2008, -8/+101Stickin to their guns!
- tadhgisaledgend, on 06/14/2008, -11/+10digg this if you voted no.
- TheImaginator, on 06/14/2008, -7/+60I prefered the bit of the article where it said "which amounted to a huge vote of no confidence in the way the EU is run."
If it was me I would have put that under the title of the article when submitting it to Digg.- bastardprince, on 06/14/2008, -8/+10Well since only 25% of the voting population of Ireland voted, no its not really a HUGE vote of no confidence. The treaty lost for two reasons; the lies of the 'No' side and the inaction of the 'Yes", thats it.
- thcobbs, on 06/14/2008, -2/+8Well, lets put it this way.... if only 25% of the populations that is allowed to vote even TURNED OUT.... then that's not really a huge vote of confidence in the populace a large.
- tadhgisaledgend, on 06/14/2008, -1/+15They treaty lost because nobody knew what they were voting for.
25% is fairly high for a referendum - PhantomBantam, on 06/14/2008, -0/+11What were the lies? Was it just that they thought they would have to raise taxes, or were there other issues (and the rest stated at the bottom of the article)?
From what I understand, the actual document is near impossible to read. It's a good policy to vote against unreadable document, or else you end up with something like the PATRIOT act.- nick111, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1The no campaign had a lot of help from a US astroturf group backed by military contractors.
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/87311 - Irlande, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1@nick111
Oh! Two quotes of indymedia, you fail again.
Get a real source! - zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1The no-group said Europe is a baby-killer. We would permit abortion, euthanasia,... Catholic Ireland didn't like that.
Fact is, there was no such thing in the treaty.
That's one example.
- nick111, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1The no campaign had a lot of help from a US astroturf group backed by military contractors.
- Xiney, on 06/14/2008, -0/+13Actually, turn out was 53.1%.
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/061 ...
- user23490, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Here, it doesn't amount to a vote of no confidence in the way the EU is run.
It means we didn't want the lisbon treaty, or perhaps didn't like the way the EU would be run after Lisbon.
In many cases, Irish people are quite happy with the EU at the moment, but we just don't want to continue the trend towards becoming a Unitied States of Europe.
- bastardprince, on 06/14/2008, -8/+10Well since only 25% of the voting population of Ireland voted, no its not really a HUGE vote of no confidence. The treaty lost for two reasons; the lies of the 'No' side and the inaction of the 'Yes", thats it.
- AlwaysAwake, on 06/14/2008, -53/+54Despite very strong pressure from the political servants and minions of The Western World Corporate/Banking Cartel, aka The New World Order, led by the richest owner/investors The Rorhschilds, the Irish people have, so far, wisely chosen to say NO to their greed and ambition for a One Europe Company, as a step to a One World Company. The recent Bilderberg Group meeting in Virginia, was to co-ordinate their plans with their American counterparts, now that the newly obedient Obama has been brought into "the fold", thanks to Hillary Clinton's candid threats, supported by Lynn Forester, wife of Sir Evelyn Rorhschild, and head of First Mark Communications, which recently bought up control over ALL the wireless broadband platforms in Europe, to dominate the Internet, as well as the mainstream media they already control as owners of API, Reuters, and other media corporations.
- rhabd0mancer, on 06/14/2008, -16/+19You've got it all figured out, don't you.
- LeonidasStokely, on 06/14/2008, -19/+4I'm so glad you warned me. Here I was thinking there was no mass world domination conspiracy underfoot, but now I have time to prepare for a 'New World Order'. Here goes...
I for one welcome our new imaginary overlords. - trenchcoat, on 06/14/2008, -5/+7I never knew Kevin Nash was so powerful.
- ItStillMoves, on 06/14/2008, -11/+30Yes, sure, mock him. Don't bother investigating what he's actually talking about. Bilderberg doesn't exist, the Rotschilds don't control the monetary system, the dollar is strong and there's no such thing as the New World Order. Good slaves. Good. Here's your inflation...
- a3r0, on 06/14/2008, -13/+1I think your tinfoil hat is a bit loose, there
- metric7, on 06/15/2008, -5/+5Such originality, you must be a dittohead
- FatLoser, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Bill Hicks, is that you?
- a3r0, on 06/14/2008, -13/+1I think your tinfoil hat is a bit loose, there
- DavidGX, on 06/15/2008, -2/+6http://zeitgeistmovie.com/
Watch that and decide for yourself if he's ***** insane, or right on the money. - SgtQuackers, on 06/15/2008, -2/+3OMG you talked bad about Obama....... on Digg. That is not allowed. /sarcasm
- isparadiselost, on 06/14/2008, -31/+112This makes me doubly proud of my Irish heritage.
- laserviking, on 06/14/2008, -23/+10Do you even know what they voted no against?
- ICSU, on 06/14/2008, -6/+9Like the voters, he doesn't.
- willywong, on 06/14/2008, -11/+10Do you know every Irish person secretly hates yanks who try to claim kinship with them? Which is pretty much all of them.
- DuffyDirect, on 06/14/2008, -8/+14yeah thats what we get for sending over food, clothes, and toys when the country was in the *****
- K7Avenger, on 06/15/2008, -9/+5Oh boo hoo, people who live in Ireland don't want me knowing my heritage.
- willywong, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1No, we don't. It's more the fact that many Americans claim to be Irish rather than that they have Irish heritage.
- birdman98, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3Would you say your love of your heritage is Dublin?
- willywong, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Ali G told that joke better. Still, I'm drunk therefore I shall digg you up.
- Neverclear, on 06/15/2008, -1/+6You do realize if the EU fails the US wins right? We were on the edge of a unified Europe, and now... well happy times are here again.
Ireland. You Rawk.- willywong, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1I want the US to win. I'm Northern Irish and 75% of my income comes from the US. USA, USA, USA!!!
- blackhappy, on 06/15/2008, -3/+2Man on St. Patricks day were all Irish. Besides didn't you know everyone in america is part irish and part native american.
- willywong, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Are you all German on D day?
- blackhappy, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1No were all German during Oktoberfest. And were all mexican on cinco de mayo. You have a beer drinking holiday we'll celebrate it!
- willywong, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Are you all German on D day?
- laserviking, on 06/14/2008, -23/+10Do you even know what they voted no against?
- noahsawyer, on 06/14/2008, -20/+133"The referendum in Ireland was the sole popular vote in the EU on the grand plan to give Europe a sitting president and foreign minister, and reconfigure the way the EU is governed. The result left the project severely wounded, perhaps fatally."
A president and foreign minister for all of Europe? I'm glad it got stalled.- urfe, on 06/14/2008, -4/+15False.
There will be a 'President of the European Council' - he will take on the existing role of the Council President. For 2 years instead of the changing every 6 months.
And one more thing - the President of the European Council will be chosen by (and responsible to) elected national leaders, not the European Parliament.- noahsawyer, on 06/15/2008, -0/+7Thanks for the clarification.
- urfe, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Hi, Noah
You're welcome.
- sanman, on 06/15/2008, -2/+2Hail to the Chief - of the new EUSR
- urfe, on 06/14/2008, -4/+15False.
- EffYoo, on 06/14/2008, -8/+40Yet one more indication that there should be more democratic accountability for the EU.
- igyigyigy, on 06/14/2008, -2/+9Which the treaty would hav..... aah never mind :)
- EffYoo, on 06/14/2008, -1/+7It was a rejection of centralization of power in the EU... centralization that has been occurring without the consent of the people in the member states. They aren't satisfied with the way that it is already run and rather than give more power to the eu, even if it makes the eu a little more democratic, they'd rather stick with their national governments which are far more accountable to their people.
- TetchyTony, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1No! 'Democracy' would give them the excuse of legitimacy, and further encourage the squalid so-called 'European Parliament'. It's a Treaty, dammit, and we have all the 'democracy' we need in our home countries. Not that it works there either, of course. But at least you can vote 'no' sometimes yourself.
- fasda, on 06/14/2008, -19/+9I wonder how the Euro is going to be effected by this?
- seanieb, on 06/14/2008, -1/+24its not.
- laserviking, on 06/14/2008, -4/+2Maybe it will get blowed up?
- poidh, on 06/14/2008, -4/+9It won't be affected at all. The bureaucrats who make a ton of money from the EU and want to control every aspect of peoples' lives like the good little socialists they are, will find another way to push it through, just like last time. They'll keep on going and going until they win, against the will of the European people.
- PhantomBantam, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2It did drop some after the referendum.
- Poltron, on 06/14/2008, -24/+5Here's the video of the rejection http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy6IrQvNWfY
- jksturm, on 06/14/2008, -27/+68Nice job Ireland!! Hopefully we can be as wise in the USA and bring NAFTA to a halt!
- laserviking, on 06/14/2008, -20/+10You really don't understand anything do you.
- charm803, on 06/14/2008, -5/+17I think it is you who doesn't understand. If you did, you would be against NAFTA as well in the same sense Ireland wants to keep their sovereignty.
woot woot- ufia, on 06/14/2008, -7/+7The United States should be scared ***** about the European Union. The USA should embrace NAFTA in a ***** hurry if they care about their economy, because your country is becoming more and more dispensable to the rest of the American continent, including Canada. Your sovereignty won't mean much in the future if your neighbor countries can just keep ignoring you and go find better trades some places else around the world.
- laserviking, on 06/15/2008, -1/+3@ charm803 I suggest you read books which don't have colourful illustrations.
- ufia, on 06/14/2008, -7/+7The United States should be scared ***** about the European Union. The USA should embrace NAFTA in a ***** hurry if they care about their economy, because your country is becoming more and more dispensable to the rest of the American continent, including Canada. Your sovereignty won't mean much in the future if your neighbor countries can just keep ignoring you and go find better trades some places else around the world.
- charm803, on 06/14/2008, -5/+17I think it is you who doesn't understand. If you did, you would be against NAFTA as well in the same sense Ireland wants to keep their sovereignty.
- warlax27, on 06/14/2008, -19/+3YOU SUCK!
- ICSU, on 06/14/2008, -13/+16Yay, halt the free trade.
How about you studied economics 101?- Puppyfam, on 06/15/2008, -1/+12It's a shame you're getting dugg down. The answer is not abandoning NAFTA; it's abandoning all the excessive regulations and taxes that are discouraging businesses from creating jobs in the US. Or at least that's a big part of it.
- laserviking, on 06/14/2008, -20/+10You really don't understand anything do you.
- Disregard, on 06/14/2008, -21/+153A nice kick in the teeth for the globalization movement.
- laserviking, on 06/14/2008, -31/+11Yeah ***** I much preferred it when Europe was at war.
- nycmac247, on 06/14/2008, -1/+10yes, better to join together and go to war with russia or china ... but not have a vote b/c the supra-state has already decided for you?
- laserviking, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Yeah, way better to have no friends when Russia comes knocking on your door.
- nycmac247, on 06/14/2008, -1/+10yes, better to join together and go to war with russia or china ... but not have a vote b/c the supra-state has already decided for you?
- laserviking, on 06/14/2008, -31/+11Yeah ***** I much preferred it when Europe was at war.
- justinx0r, on 06/14/2008, -18/+94Good for the Irish. Maybe more EU states will reject the huge centralization of governance that is taking place in Europe right now.
- thcobbs, on 06/14/2008, -4/+1Come on! It's way past time for the USE... or would that be UFE..... Come on.... there's even gonna be a UFP in 2161 for goodness sakes!
- tensvb, on 06/14/2008, -4/+3With all these crazy brussel socialists regulating banana angles it would be more like USSR
- Gwennyk, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1Err they did reject it, and then they changed the name of the Eu constitution to the EU lisbon treaty and all of a sudden the only people allowed to have a referendum on it were Ireland.
- thcobbs, on 06/14/2008, -4/+1Come on! It's way past time for the USE... or would that be UFE..... Come on.... there's even gonna be a UFP in 2161 for goodness sakes!
- yourpalOZ, on 06/14/2008, -18/+79I knew they coould do it! Three Cheers for the Irish!
Now can USA keep from the Amero currency that seems to be lurking in our future?- Zaneris, on 06/14/2008, -8/+3Well, considering that the CAD and USD are now equal, it wouldn't exactly make much difference.
- CeeAyy, on 06/14/2008, -1/+11There is more to it than just the value of currency
- stubear, on 06/14/2008, -0/+13Add in the Peso and let's see if you're keen on the idea of the American Union then.
- Zaneris, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1Point taken...
- rdoger6424, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2Screw Mexico then
- Zaneris, on 06/14/2008, -8/+3Well, considering that the CAD and USD are now equal, it wouldn't exactly make much difference.
- Scottc320, on 06/14/2008, -31/+47Go Ireland, stop the NWO!
- gentk, on 06/14/2008, -10/+12oh FFS...
- 1randomguyO8, on 06/15/2008, -3/+6Yes it's the bilderberg group trying to take over the world..
- ZigVicious, on 06/14/2008, -12/+5listen to the Daily Source Code 764 for more info on what this means.
- JohnP, on 06/14/2008, -30/+11Say no to the EU which promotes unprecedented economic development?
P.S. Glad to see all the americans saying no to the EU because it is a bigger and stronger economy! Feeling a bit small are you?- erasedgod, on 06/14/2008, -1/+5Never mind.
Bury away. - PhreakMac, on 06/14/2008, -5/+12No we are glad because once all your nations are destroyed they are going to come and do it here!!!
***** THE UNIONS OF COUNTRIES!!!!
Why kill stronger nations to support the ones who can't balance their budget? Let them collapse - Like we are going to (the us). - nycmac247, on 06/14/2008, -4/+12"no to the EU"
-- maybe b/c the farther the gov't is away from you the less representation you most likely have?- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -1/+2Yes, because communication still boils down to telegrams brought by horses.
- hydroplane, on 06/16/2008, -0/+1No, because people with no interest in your community should be making laws which govern it.
- erasedgod, on 06/14/2008, -1/+5Never mind.
- idbjoshm, on 06/14/2008, -20/+5Even though I loath Celtic Green (Go Lakers!) ...BUT! I bleed too much Emerald Green to not be proud of this great moment! Our Irish brothers have been fighting British Tyranny since the days of Oliver Cromwell, now we fight European Tyranny!
Oh Danny Boy ... the pipes, the pipes are calling
From glen to glen, and down the mountain side
The summer's gone, and all the flowers are dying
'Tis you, 'tis you must go and I must bide.
But come ye back when summer's in the meadow
Or when the valley's hushed and white with snow
'Tis I'll be here in sunshine or in shadow
Oh Danny boy, oh Danny boy, I love you so.
And if you come, when all the flowers are dying
And I am dead, as dead I well may be
You'll come and find the place where I am lying
And kneel and say an "Ave" there for me.
And I shall hear, tho' soft you tread above me
And all my dreams will warm and sweeter be
If you'll not fail to tell me that you love me
I'll simply sleep in peace until you come to me.
I'll simply sleep in peace until you come to me.- JohnP, on 06/14/2008, -1/+9Holy *****, no wonder americans like you funded the IRA... Youre thick as *****.
- Crumpet46, on 06/14/2008, -1/+5I take it you're American?
I myself am half Irish and English and it irritates me how alot of Americans seem to see organizations like the IRA through such rose tinted spectacles, which ended up with them being funded in part by people like you. They killed innocent civilians, even the war dead and veterans on remembrance day (Enniskillen) were targets. I'm not defending bloody Sunday either that was a disgusting event.
My family came down on both sides of the troubles, don't trivialise it.- metric7, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1How many people have died
by the hands of your crown?
Millions of Indians, Chinese
Boers, Irish, Americans,
Africans, I could go on but
you get the point.- JohnP, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Your point is retarded. He even states that he is neutral.
Where does the idea that the British empire was some mass murder machine come from? I like how you ignore all the good things it brought to the world..
Ontop of that if we are counting bodies the USA is nearing the top of the list. The only nation to enguage in nuclear war, and the only western nation that has prison camps... The point is, this ***** shouldnt be an issue of nationalism, its basic morality.
- JohnP, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Your point is retarded. He even states that he is neutral.
- metric7, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1How many people have died
- xram12, on 06/14/2008, -18/+12yay Ireland , when the Netherlands win the euro cup we should give it it to the Irish out of praise
- 15charmaxwtf, on 06/14/2008, -11/+78Fools, don't they know some EU bureaucrats can run their lives approximately 245.43% better than they can?
- dima1109, on 06/14/2008, -5/+1Some assembly in Brussels can run a 6-million people country better than their own government?
- igyigyigy, on 06/14/2008, -0/+7I don't think that was ever the issue
- ByteGuerilla, on 06/15/2008, -0/+13*whoosh*
- dima1109, on 06/14/2008, -5/+1Some assembly in Brussels can run a 6-million people country better than their own government?
- seanieb, on 06/14/2008, -50/+50Chalk another one up for the politics of fear!!
Don't read into more than this, the government cocked up the process of informing the people. And the 'No' side took advantage of this to spread their lies.
The vast majority of people who I know and voted No did so because they "didn't understand it". Then there is another group that believed the lies that were spread by the "No" side, eg. European army, neutrality concerns, tax concerns etc.
Europe has been great for Ireland and its a real shame that this has happened. All the main Irish party's are pro Lisbon, both the government and the main opposition parties only small parties and nobodies were against it. They won by spreading fear
I can see the government going back and re doing this.- bastardprince, on 06/14/2008, -13/+33this is bang on, pure lies from the no side won it. it will be passed in the next year.
- urfe, on 06/14/2008, -15/+29It's true and sad.
Many voted 'No' - aside from the (general) ignorance -, because they didn't want foreigners taking their jobs.
There are some debates about whether membership of the EU has been a good thing for Ireland - and that's appalling, EU helped Ireland to achieve an economic miracle. Ireland had received €60 billion from the EU since joining in 1973 and had paid back €20 billion so far.
The treaty = improvement for Europe.- JohnP, on 06/14/2008, -4/+12On the surface Ireland have acted like dole whores with the EU. How the hell can the population of Ireland look at their membership in the EU as a bad thing when their quality of life has soared? It is surreal.
Most of the people posting here are American though, they support the IRA, and then have incredible ignorance of general politics and Europe in general. As i stated in my post above, they have suddenly found themselves well below Europe in economic power and general standards, not because of a sudden surge in the EU, but because their economy has gotten so bad theyre suddenly reading the facts, not propaganda.
Its a sad state of affairs for the human race. - Goodfeeling32, on 06/14/2008, -4/+6urfe: "The treaty = improvement for Europe."
You got to be kidding me, have you even read the treaty?
It's mostly about new economical policies giving more rights to corporations and less rights to workers.
Why da hell do you think that the 3 countries(Netherlands and France in 2005, and now Ireland) who were given a referendum voted NO?- urfe, on 06/15/2008, -1/+3Goodfeeling32, they voted against the Constitution, not against this Treaty.
Ireland has benefited from the European social legislation on issues as health, safety & co., working time (full or part), equality, parental leave, discrimination etc.
As far as I know, almost all gender equality legislation comes from the EU.
There is also the in accordance with 'National Laws and Provisions' part, where the unions are.
So, why not good for workers? Because of all the foreigners with same rights as natives?
Now, about corporations - what rights to corporations? Different corporation taxation levels are a problem, as corporates tend to move to countries with low tax rates (like Ireland) - but the Treaty will not change that (and I hope it's clear that, whether the Treaty is ratified or not, Ireland will be pressured to change this).
The Treaty specifies a list of corporate profits that are to be taxed. - burketo, on 06/16/2008, -0/+2the mistake you make is that you simplify things down to "for europe" or "against europe". This treaty was a shambles that was thrown together to try and save the constitution. THAT is why nobody understood it. If you want to talk about what THIS treaty would have done for/against us that is fine, but dont make out like if you voted no you are some sort of anti-european tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist.
There were several Well grounded reasons to vote no. there were NO good reasons to vote YES except you were told to by the dail, who by their own admission hadn't read it. also, how could you honestly be in favor of people voting for something they don't understand? that is ridiculous! i suppose if you were given anything to vote for and enough people said it was fine you would go with them. get real.
This treaty was not in ireland's favour simply because it reduced our voting strength and increased the areas where voting strength is important.
It was the politicians' mistake to leave it to us to ratify. they won't make that mistake again.
- urfe, on 06/15/2008, -1/+3Goodfeeling32, they voted against the Constitution, not against this Treaty.
- JohnP, on 06/14/2008, -4/+12On the surface Ireland have acted like dole whores with the EU. How the hell can the population of Ireland look at their membership in the EU as a bad thing when their quality of life has soared? It is surreal.
- dhughes, on 06/14/2008, -1/+7 People tend to vote No on something when they don't understand what they're voting for or they actually meant to vote No, or they just didn't bother to vote at all.
- Goodfeeling32, on 06/14/2008, -3/+7This treaty has never been clear because if it was clear people would understand that the treaty is all about giving up sovereignty's and giving more power to the corporations.
I have nothing about the EU, but there is a lack of communication between the elected deputies in the EU Parliament and the people from their country who voted for them.
We don't know what is being voted and those deputies are not taken accountable for what they vote.
The EU is like most empires : It tries to get as remote as possible from the people and then vote whatever they want because of the lack of information about what's going on. - metric7, on 06/15/2008, -4/+4Can you tell us how they lied?
I'm guessing no- seanieb, on 06/15/2008, -1/+4Yes, I can.
Brian Cowan has gone on the record outlining some of the lies.
The biggest one was the neutrality lie and then there is the tax lie.
The problem is the "No" side was made up of numerous different groups. Each came at it from a different angle. I wont say all the "no" arguments were false or all lies. Some of the points were grounded, and factual. The problem was that the best/most effective arguments that the No side had were false. And it was these lies that scared/confused a lot of people.
- seanieb, on 06/15/2008, -1/+4Yes, I can.
- SethEllis, on 06/14/2008, -24/+97Good for them. Don't give up your sovereignty.
- seanieb, on 06/14/2008, -20/+16more lies...how does Lisbon give up or sovereignty?
It doesn't. We're still members of the EU, were became part of the EEC/EU in the 70's...you might have to time travel back to them to express your fears.
And by the way, that assertion was BS then and its BS now.- nycmac247, on 06/14/2008, -11/+14"how does Lisbon give up or sovereignty?
WOW...just keep making the net bigger and keep making decisions that affect our daily lives farther and farther away...
- nycmac247, on 06/14/2008, -11/+14"how does Lisbon give up or sovereignty?
- urfe, on 06/14/2008, -8/+12You are wrong - the power of the European and national parliaments would have been strenghthened - and this are directly elected by the people. It looks to me like an important step in the right direction (identity issues).
- seanieb, on 06/14/2008, -5/+2Sorry I have to differ with you, and I it would come down to a debate on sovereignty.
- urfe, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2On (fundamental) issues like social security, foreign policy (including defence), justice, home affairs, the treaty will not transfer power away from the UK. Isn't that sovereignty?
- seanieb, on 06/14/2008, -2/+2Well if you read the treaty there are points in there about our neutrality, so no it isn't sovereignty.
- urfe, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1What do you mean?
The Treaty does not involve changes in areas such as defense. Ireland's policy of neutrality is respected and secured (as it has been in all past EU Treaties). For all this kind of decisions, unanimity is preserved, maintaining Ireland's veto.
- JamesMatt, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1Qualified Majority Voting
- seanieb, on 06/14/2008, -5/+2Sorry I have to differ with you, and I it would come down to a debate on sovereignty.
- ICSU, on 06/14/2008, -3/+2Sovereignty? You mean the sovereignty of the corrupt national governments?
- nick111, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1If you look at the Global Corruption Index, they're not actually that corrupt... though obviously they could do better
- seanieb, on 06/14/2008, -20/+16more lies...how does Lisbon give up or sovereignty?
- Sithseth, on 06/14/2008, -22/+52I don't know why the people in Europe want more government... it's not good for anyone. It does nothing but limit individual rights, and worsens the bureaucracy.
- seanieb, on 06/14/2008, -11/+15ha, that's the complete oposite of what the treaty tried to archive.
- ZigVicious, on 06/14/2008, -4/+13I think you mean that's the complete opposite of what the treaty tries to appear.
The treaty appears to boost individual rights, but basically, if you read all of it, the small print, per se, they can all be taken away for almost any reason, war, almost war, terror, possible war, etc. - AugustusOsari, on 06/14/2008, -3/+3Yeah. It tried to decrease the requirements to do things, decrease the number of people directly involved, and give it more power.
In other words, it tried to make it even more exploitable and vulnerable to corruption.
Great plan, right? Right?
- ZigVicious, on 06/14/2008, -4/+13I think you mean that's the complete opposite of what the treaty tries to appear.
- urfe, on 06/14/2008, -10/+14More government, worsen bureaucracy? That's untrue, this are some of the
changes the treaty attempted to introduce:
* a president of the European Council for 2.5 years, replacing the current system where countries take turns at being president for six months
* a new post combining the jobs of the existing foreign affairs supremo, Javier Solana, and the external affairs commissioner, Benita Ferrero-Waldner, to give the EU more clout on the world stage
* a smaller European Commission, with fewer commissioners than there are member states, from 2014
* a redistribution of voting weights between the member states, phased in between 2014 and 2017 - qualified majority voting based on a "double majority" of 55% of member states, accounting for 65% of the EU's population
* new powers for the European Commission, European Parliament and European Court of Justice, for example in the field of justice and home affairs
* Removal of national vetoes in a number of areas.
It looks better, every decision takes too long in the current EU, one goal was to simplify things.- ICSU, on 06/14/2008, -3/+7How dare you bring facts to this dogmatic debate?
- blorc, on 06/15/2008, -2/+4How's disbanding the EU and moving away from globalist governments for simplistic? Allow countries to have their own sovereignty.
- seanieb, on 06/14/2008, -11/+15ha, that's the complete oposite of what the treaty tried to archive.
- Minters, on 06/14/2008, -12/+66This was tremendous news for most of Europe. Ireland was the only country in the entire EU that gave its people a vote and they said no. Last time they put forward the EU constitution, the French and Dutch said no. Yet Governments across Europe just seem to be happy to pass this measure, despite overwhelming opposition from the general public, the people they are supposed to be representing. Hopefully this means that the Lisbon Treaty will fade away now and, with a bit of luck, we wont simply get it renamed and passed around again.
- Syntaxis, on 06/14/2008, -6/+5You haven't even read it, have you? Just like 99% of the other voters, regardless of whether they voted "yes" or "no". News crews out on the streets asking random voters about anything in the constitution or treaty will just say something ridiculous.
I've even spoken to friends who didn't even vote, and would've voted "no". Their reason? "I don't like our politicians, I don't want them to look good in the international political arena."
"Yes"-voters usually go with the reason that they like not having to exchange money when traveling cross-border. That's about the only thing they know about Europe. And since that experience is a positive one, they assume all European related politics must be good.
The voting booth should include a randomized list of 10 easy-to-answer questions about the subject of the vote. Then you could rule out the idiots, and not count their uninformed (or worse: misinformed) votes.- korvan504521, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Or instead of trying to rule out idiots, you could just inform them by giving a simple break down of the treaty. Put it on a big billboard in front of the voting office. personally I just read the voter info that ussually comes with my ballot, but I don't know if they do that there.
- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1How can you oblige people to read if they don't want to, most people have a very short concentration-span.
All was available, even in the countries that didn't go to vote have received a folder with the main points, with the constitution, and once again when lisboa was agreed. If people just throw it away, what more can you do as a governement? Making millions of tv-spots, which makes people complain about wasting tax-money?
- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1How can you oblige people to read if they don't want to, most people have a very short concentration-span.
- Minters, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3I admit I have not read the entire document, however I have read a substantial amount of the treaty. I have certainly read enough to understand what I am voting against. (Not that I have been given the opportunity to vote)
However, the content of the treaty is irrelevant when taken into the context of the post I made above. The post above is all about giving the people what they want. Thus far, the 3 countries that have asked their people what they want have said no. Every other country has refused a referendum. When you take into account that one of the promises made by the treaty is "a more democratic Europe", this is a laughable state of affairs. Its against everything that this supposed treaty stands for!
However, I'm sure you wont be happy without an explanation, so Ill give my primary reason for opposing it. It takes power away from the member state and grants it to the EU. I want the laws and policies of my country to be decided by my country, not a panel of bureaucrats in Brussels. Most politicians, in my experience, are liars that do not seem to be in full possession of the facts. If they are setting laws for my country, I want them to at the very least LIVE THERE.- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1"It takes power away from the member state and grants it to the EU."
You still vote for them.
- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1"It takes power away from the member state and grants it to the EU."
- korvan504521, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Or instead of trying to rule out idiots, you could just inform them by giving a simple break down of the treaty. Put it on a big billboard in front of the voting office. personally I just read the voter info that ussually comes with my ballot, but I don't know if they do that there.
- colonelbuckshot, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2Don't bet on it. The political elites behind this EU project will stop at nothing to achieve their ends. Democracy is just a nuisance to them.
- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Plan on the table is to exclude Eire. They should just do that, let them walk away.
- ffttoteof, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1Yes, the first time around, the Dutch and French let the people vote on it. The people vote no.
The second time around, the Dutch and the French don't let their people vote on it.
Shameful.- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Both the Dutch and the French voted no, because they wanted to punish their governement. That's a lousy reason to vote no on something completely different.
In my country, most people are against the treaty, because:
-the governement did ... (hello, you're not voting on that)
-foreigners take our jobs (voting no won't change that)
-I don't understand the treaty (then don't vote)
-the EU should be more democratic (that was the intend of both the Constitution and treaty, stupid)
-we lose power to the EU ( 90% of the laws are already voted in the Euro-commision, the implementation would shift from indirect to direct. A law voted on European level HAS to be implemented into national law already, so why not do that directly)
-we lose our language, culture, nationality (the protection the EU provides to prevent such loss, is greater than in any member-country)
-they will allow abortion, euthanasia,... ( that's upto the member-states)
-they will allow Turkey as a member-state (there's nothing agreed on that, yet)
-they haven't done anything good for us (Euro? low inflation? 60+ years without a war, an unseen thing in Europe. Balkans are not part of the EU, need to say more?)
- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Both the Dutch and the French voted no, because they wanted to punish their governement. That's a lousy reason to vote no on something completely different.
- Syntaxis, on 06/14/2008, -6/+5You haven't even read it, have you? Just like 99% of the other voters, regardless of whether they voted "yes" or "no". News crews out on the streets asking random voters about anything in the constitution or treaty will just say something ridiculous.
- TwiStEr55, on 06/14/2008, -16/+149THANK YOU IRELAND!!!!
We werent asked in Germany, Im glad you saved us all for now!!- BradHAWK, on 06/14/2008, -2/+3"Go raibh maith agat Éire."
- ka2err, on 06/15/2008, -2/+3Well, thank you, now we're stuck with a merely powerless European parliament and a corrupt comission for the next decade.
- digTruthiness, on 06/15/2008, -3/+3That is disinformation and propaganda from the main stream media to pass a very controversial and undemocratic treaty. Please think for yourself and tell us where the European parliament has become powerless. If the politicians think they are powerless then they should resign immediately. Nobody needs that totalitarian European Constitution.
- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -1/+2I'm glad you've read the treaty.
/sarcasm
- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -1/+2I'm glad you've read the treaty.
- digTruthiness, on 06/15/2008, -3/+3That is disinformation and propaganda from the main stream media to pass a very controversial and undemocratic treaty. Please think for yourself and tell us where the European parliament has become powerless. If the politicians think they are powerless then they should resign immediately. Nobody needs that totalitarian European Constitution.
- Chupracabra, on 06/14/2008, -12/+22This is a victory for the light.
- p0s3r, on 06/14/2008, -31/+46A major setback for the Belgian imperialists trying to mold the entire EU into their socialist image.
- groovechamp30, on 06/14/2008, -7/+15What a load of crap...
The European Commission employs less people than Manchester City council.
You call that an Empire?- mahsah, on 06/15/2008, -3/+1I'd actually call it more of an Oligarchy, personally.
- ptemple, on 06/15/2008, -2/+0No it doesn't. The European Commission has over 54,000 employees. Manchester City Council has 26,000.
Phillip.- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2Why do you include cleaning personal in your numbers?
- groovechamp30, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2Wrong, in terms of "fonctionnaires", that is everyone who works at a desk and does a job that isn't cleaning, maintenance or security, there are 23,043 employees.
"According to figures published by the Commission, 23,043 persons were employed by the Commission as officials and temporary agents in April 2007."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission
- groovechamp30, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2Wrong, in terms of "fonctionnaires", that is everyone who works at a desk and does a job that isn't cleaning, maintenance or security, there are 23,043 employees.
"According to figures published by the Commission, 23,043 persons were employed by the Commission as officials and temporary agents in April 2007."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission
- igyigyigy, on 06/14/2008, -4/+15Yep! You got it in one, it's those evil belgians trying to take over the world.
*rolleyes* - fef560, on 06/14/2008, -8/+4you're a ***** p0s3r
- Herostratos, on 06/15/2008, -0/+5There is a reason why "Belgium" is one of the rudest cusswords in the galaxy.
- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2As a Belgian I can say that most Belgians are against the EU, for the same (wrong) reasons they are in Eire.
- groovechamp30, on 06/14/2008, -7/+15What a load of crap...
- jhelmer, on 06/14/2008, -13/+49Good for them. The world is moving in exactly the wrong direction. Instead of more local control we are heading in the direction of larger and less accountable governments. I don't get why people think that's a good idea.
- p0s3r, on 06/14/2008, -6/+29Because a handful of elites think they are smarter than the "common man" and therefore deserve to rule them. For the benefit of the "common man" of course. It's a fundamental aspect of modern liberalism.
- nycmac247, on 06/14/2008, -3/+10"deserve to rule them."
- yes, and _get paid by_ them! - zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2If I see most people around me, and after some interactions with these "elites", well, honestly, they ARE.
- nycmac247, on 06/14/2008, -3/+10"deserve to rule them."
- AugustusOsari, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2The politicians and media tell them so! It must be true!
- p0s3r, on 06/14/2008, -6/+29Because a handful of elites think they are smarter than the "common man" and therefore deserve to rule them. For the benefit of the "common man" of course. It's a fundamental aspect of modern liberalism.
- mecharabbit, on 06/14/2008, -11/+40Ireland to EU: "Kiss our Blarney Stone!"
- USNavyBlue, on 06/14/2008, -6/+5Congratulations! Stick to your guns. This is global enslavement!
- matador3, on 06/14/2008, -12/+56It'll be back next week under a different name, thats how 'democracy' works in the European Union. "We know whats best and you'll damn well vote as we tell you!" lol
- tororosso, on 06/14/2008, -23/+9The fact is that Ireland wouldn't be where it is today if it weren't for the massive subsidies and financial help from the EU... And the treaty Eire rejected was mostly meant to smooth out the workings of the EU institutions, seems a bit ridiculous they chose a popular referendum to pass it (all the other countries opted for passing via their parliaments).
Before I get dugg down, let me just make on more point. Most of us really appreciate the progressive, socially and environmentally conscious policies that are the basis of the European Union, so why can't we have a stronger voice for the EU to push forward these values in a more effective way in the global arena?- JamesMatt, on 06/14/2008, -1/+5regarding.."And the treaty Eire rejected was mostly meant to smooth out the workings of the EU institutions, seems a bit ridiculous they chose a popular referendum to pass it (all the other countries opted for passing via their parliaments)."
Under Irish Law, any significant changes to European Union treaties require an amendment to the Irish constitution which is always done by means of a referendum before it can be ratified by the state. Tenth Amendment of the Constitution Act, 1987, - p0s3r, on 06/14/2008, -4/+6Ireland is booming because they cut corporate tax rates in half.
- urfe, on 06/14/2008, -0/+8Yes, the €60 billion that Ireland had received from the EU since joining in 1973 had no effect...
- seanieb, on 06/14/2008, -0/+5Ha we wouldn't even have a corporate policy if it weren't for the EEC/EU.
- JamesMatt, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2boom days are over in Ireland, its doom days now.....
like it or not people don't want to admit to it but the housing bubble in Ireland has burst......a big sector of the boom days was construction.....housing etc
construction has slowed down, house prices are falling as a result of that builders are being laid off.........and dole queues are ever increasing.....28,000 since the start of the year, with unemployment breaking the 200,000 mark for the first time in almost a decade.
Young people 20's 30's are tied up in 35 year 100% mortgages and are facing negative equity the margin of which is increasing month by month..........- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -1/+2All to blame the EU, isn't it?
- JamesMatt, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1no my comment is a direct reply to "Ireland is booming"
- JamesMatt, on 06/14/2008, -1/+5regarding.."And the treaty Eire rejected was mostly meant to smooth out the workings of the EU institutions, seems a bit ridiculous they chose a popular referendum to pass it (all the other countries opted for passing via their parliaments)."
- neocr0n, on 06/14/2008, -10/+60Thank you Ireland, a vast majority of the UK thanks you. We would vote against it ourselves but despite the promise of a referendum from labour they turned around and stabbed us in the back. Then the lords twisted the knife.
- jwkpiano1, on 06/14/2008, -5/+5Based on..? Show me a poll where the vast majority of the UK is against the Lisbon treaty. Oh right, there isn't one.
- kieranmaine, on 06/15/2008, -1/+2Why would you vote against it?
- blackhappy, on 06/15/2008, -2/+3Maybe you can give them back Northern Ireland as a thank you.
- advwar, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1Give it back? It belongs to the UK, and wants to remain part of the UK.
- lorenzoamigo, on 06/15/2008, -1/+2Not it ***** doesn't. It's Irish land. And I'm English. The only people who want it to remain a part of the uk are the n'th generation jocks who live there.
- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2does it really matter? I was hoping nationalism died in 1946, but proven wrong I guess.
- reindeersp, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Why do ye think you own anything? Its part of Ireland and no people had any right to come in, take over Irish land and cause a war that people are still getting killed in.
- advwar, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1Give it back? It belongs to the UK, and wants to remain part of the UK.
- jwkpiano1, on 06/14/2008, -5/+5Based on..? Show me a poll where the vast majority of the UK is against the Lisbon treaty. Oh right, there isn't one.
- Crazymaniacc, on 06/14/2008, -12/+52Thank you Ireland, I don't want a president of Europe as well.
- jwkpiano1, on 06/14/2008, -8/+10Not in the treaty, doofus.
- lordnikon, on 06/15/2008, -4/+5The treaty would create a new position called "President of the European Council" which has been informally referred to as the "President of the European Union"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_Euro ...- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+5President is a deriviation from "presidere" which means "to chair"
The president of the Counsil is NOT the president of the EU, whatever may be written on wikipedia.
In a lot of European countries which interchange the words "president" with "president-minister", "prime-minister", "premiér". It's not a head of state, because in those countries oficialy he isn't, or it's a king.
- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+5President is a deriviation from "presidere" which means "to chair"
- lordnikon, on 06/15/2008, -4/+5The treaty would create a new position called "President of the European Council" which has been informally referred to as the "President of the European Union"
- jwkpiano1, on 06/14/2008, -8/+10Not in the treaty, doofus.
- liberta, on 06/14/2008, -18/+11The only problem is things like this is that 99% of those who voted yes or No had no clue about what the treaty was about or what was in the treaty.
Just because a politician or a wealthy business man tells you to Vote Yes or No doesnt mean all those idiots should have followed.
--------
xenbet.com - DiggGeek24, on 06/14/2008, -17/+2Stop fighting the EU I hope everyday the world would unite into a one world govt. the only people fighting it are racist xenophobes.
- comradeTJH, on 06/14/2008, -0/+5No. Souvereign and federalism is crucial to keeping up all the very different cultures living closely together in Europe. Thinking you could unite the whole world into one state is not only naive but actually xenophobic and collective thinking, depressing individualism and diversity that makes us humans worth living. Think about it.
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -0/+4you are an idiot.
the world is a little more complex than that. - USNavyBlue, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2"racist xenophobes" Lol - what a lame worn out excuse! Get over it. The person who screams it - really is the racist xenophobe. You will make a good little serf in the NWO! Don't you realize that a "one world govt." is the plan of Satan? Geesh - I guess your not Christan.
- DiggGeek24, on 06/14/2008, -2/+1Satan that evil guy that lives in the earth lol
- ItStillMoves, on 06/14/2008, -11/+59Yes, THANK YOU IRELAND, FROM BELGIUM!
This is one Belgian (among many others) that is really grateful...as you know, our masters don't let us vote here.- rupaw, on 06/15/2008, -12/+6So you Belgians don't vote for the people who present you in government. So you're not a democracy. That explains everything. You know we in Germany and Austria we are miles ahead of you. We have democratic elections every couple of years and vote those into power who are then empowered to make decision for the good of our nations. This principle seems to be lost on people like you!
- Phridge, on 06/15/2008, -1/+7Germany didn't vote on the Lisbon Treaty either dingus!
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0523/eulisbon.html?rss- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -3/+1They ratified, which means exactly what the man said. You vote for your leaders, and you should trust in the decisions they make for you. If you don't trust the people you vote into control, you should choose other leaders.
- Phridge, on 06/16/2008, -0/+2It's hardly that simple. Plus, that guy was just being freaking racist!
- Phridge, on 06/15/2008, -1/+7Germany didn't vote on the Lisbon Treaty either dingus!
- rupaw, on 06/15/2008, -12/+6So you Belgians don't vote for the people who present you in government. So you're not a democracy. That explains everything. You know we in Germany and Austria we are miles ahead of you. We have democratic elections every couple of years and vote those into power who are then empowered to make decision for the good of our nations. This principle seems to be lost on people like you!
- JamesMatt, on 06/14/2008, -3/+4
Twenty-eighth Amendment of the Constitution Bill, 2008
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_constitutional_ ... - DanotheSnitch, on 06/14/2008, -15/+25You have to credit the tactics of the No campaign, in how swiftly they switch their main point of attack against the Treaty, from topic to topic.
If you notice it has moved from abortion, to tax, to the veto, to commissioners etc, and while the Yes campaign try to put out one fire, the NO's light another in a different direction. This means that the YES have to literally spend all their time on defence, putting out fires, rather than being able to take to the offence, and sell the benefits of a Yes vote.
I suspect the truth of the matter is that rising unemployment and fuel prices are what were voted against yesterday, despite it being of no help whatsoever. If ever there was a treaty in which it was pointless to vote based upon the contents of your wallet this was it. Plus Irish people like to use EU referendums and local elections to give two fingers to the government and the establishment rather than having the balls to actually do it in an election
The lies and deceit were supposed to be the last desperate roll of the dice from an ever increasingly pointless Sinn Fein and the now marginalised Socialist Party. Unfortunately the vote came at a time when the economy and unemployment havent looked as bad for nearly a decade; the winners in all of this are nobody but Sinn Fein's council who will bleat about a victory validating the party, until the next election when they are resoundingly put back in their boxes.- mmccarthy, on 06/14/2008, -2/+6I voted yes but the reality is the government were very bad at promoting this treaty. It wouldn't have happened under Bertie's watch. :D
- seanieb, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2ha! :-D
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -2/+5It is not the No side (who were made of many small disperate groups) fault that the Yes campaign had no substance.
Empty rhetoric and scaremongering was on both sides but the Yes had nothing else to go along with it.
- mmccarthy, on 06/14/2008, -2/+6I voted yes but the reality is the government were very bad at promoting this treaty. It wouldn't have happened under Bertie's watch. :D
- Dimbleby, on 06/14/2008, -5/+36Thank you Ireland! I voted NO against the first EU Constitution when they tried to pass it. Netherlands said something like 60% orso NO to bureaucracy and globalisation.
I can no longer, but YAY for Ireland.- rupaw, on 06/14/2008, -5/+3So why is your country then not just leaving the EU. Who says that you should stay. Being against anything is hardly a constructive position to bring Europe forward. I hope that France and Germany dissolve the Union and found a new one. Everyone who is not committed to the European project should not be permitted to join.
Membership in the EU must become a privilege again! Peoples with an attitude like yours should not be permitted to join. As simple as that.- Findeton, on 06/14/2008, -0/+4"Peoples with an attitude like yours should not be permitted to join"
No, We DO WANT AN EUROPEAN CONSTITUTION, it's just that we think this constitution is horrible.- rupaw, on 06/14/2008, -3/+4Why? I read the constitution. Can you explain with one or two examples what's horrible about it?
This treaty is the medicin that Europe needs! Having 27 member-states, each of them able to veto anything is a disaster and prevents any progress. I doubt that you read what you opposed. - zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Well Findeton, then you should have voted this treaty, giving you the right to collect 1m votes (on 600m people, that should be easy) to put something on their agenda.
This was our possibility to have a say in their decision-making.
- rupaw, on 06/14/2008, -3/+4Why? I read the constitution. Can you explain with one or two examples what's horrible about it?
- Findeton, on 06/14/2008, -0/+4"Peoples with an attitude like yours should not be permitted to join"
- rupaw, on 06/14/2008, -5/+3So why is your country then not just leaving the EU. Who says that you should stay. Being against anything is hardly a constructive position to bring Europe forward. I hope that France and Germany dissolve the Union and found a new one. Everyone who is not committed to the European project should not be permitted to join.
- seanieb, on 06/14/2008, -22/+22Just like a lot of the people who voted, the comments here are uninformed.
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -7/+4Yeah, and you are one of the, If you are saying that all the people on the no said, we misinformed fools, who voted out of fear then you are saying the Majority of Ireland are idiots.
There must be no hope for us.- seanieb, on 06/14/2008, -0/+6Thankfully I didn't say that!! So your point is moot.
I'm sure there were uninformed voters on both sides, and here some of the comments are just plain incorrect.
If I take away my personal views on "yes" or "No", what is painfully obvious is that the election commission did a very poor job of informing the people of Ireland, either way.
I have had the experience of talking to a lot educated people saying that they couldn't understand what they were been asked to vote for, that's a disgrace. Especially when you think that the election commission were paid to take care of this. Some one should be fired, so that this doesn't happen again in the future.- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -0/+3see now this i can agree with you more on.
But it was purposefully vague and unclear, it didn't matter anywhere else, they were putting it through anyway.
and i apologise for the many misspellings in my first post, it is near unreadable.
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -0/+3see now this i can agree with you more on.
- seanieb, on 06/14/2008, -0/+6Thankfully I didn't say that!! So your point is moot.
- JamesMatt, on 06/14/2008, -10/+4POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!! the 862,415 that voted NO!!!
- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -1/+2800k people deciding something for 600m people, on something they didn't understand, I don't see that as a democratic thing, no mather the outcome.
- HippyJM, on 06/14/2008, -1/+6Way to be vague and unhelpful. Which side was uninformed about what?
- seanieb, on 06/15/2008, -2/+4I think the public in general was uninformed. The election commission did a very poor job.
- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1Most were uninformed, both camps. Not because they couldn't, because they did not wanted. Everything was available, as always on europe.eu
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -7/+4Yeah, and you are one of the, If you are saying that all the people on the no said, we misinformed fools, who voted out of fear then you are saying the Majority of Ireland are idiots.
- mqduck, on 06/14/2008, -10/+0What's an Ireland, and what do they have against ewes?
--MQDuck, Proud American - blackhappy, on 06/14/2008, -10/+9The problem with a EU constitution is your trying to bring countries with different values, traditions, prejudices and lifestyles under one banner of uniformity. There is way to many centuries of bad blood between these countries to ever expect them to all play nicely with one another.
- USNavyBlue, on 06/14/2008, -4/+8Ireland wants to remain a "sovereign" nation as most of the people of the many European Countries, however they had no choice in the matter to vote yes or no. That is NOT democracy. The majority of the people in the different European countries are VERY HAPPY this did not pass. As you can see from reading many of the posts here. Just because in the past their has been "bad blood" between them really has nothing to do with giving up each sovereign nation to form one European Country - that is the definition of tyranny and Communism.
- earnang, on 06/14/2008, -4/+3If you had ever even traveled to Europe you would be surprised how similar the traditions and way of life are. The whole concept behind the European Union is to unite this great continent in order to avoid "bad blood" on the basis of the same cultural identity found in member states. A centralized government is ideal for most local governments finding it hard to reform their local state. The problem with the E.U is that it's "big", "slow" and does not inform properly it's citizens about the way it functions.
- blackhappy, on 06/14/2008, -2/+6Um, I live in England!!! I see and hear constantly the differences between Europeans. I was shocked as ***** to learn how much of a grudge the English still have against the Germans. And lets not talk about the whole Irish English conflict or the English/French attitudes towards the Italian.
People of the EU will never consider themselves Europeans, but will always see themselves as French, German, Spanish, Slovenian, ect. - USNavyBlue, on 06/15/2008, -2/+3@blackhappy: Thank you and well said! To the point.
- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2England is an isle, mainland Europe is very alike.
- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2England is an Isle, mainland Europe is very the same. And I feel myself European, I lost my member-state-nationality a long time ago.
- blackhappy, on 06/14/2008, -2/+6Um, I live in England!!! I see and hear constantly the differences between Europeans. I was shocked as ***** to learn how much of a grudge the English still have against the Germans. And lets not talk about the whole Irish English conflict or the English/French attitudes towards the Italian.
- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1United in diversity. Still there are lot of things that binds us.
And, we're war-fatigue.
- earnang, on 06/14/2008, -4/+3If you had ever even traveled to Europe you would be surprised how similar the traditions and way of life are. The whole concept behind the European Union is to unite this great continent in order to avoid "bad blood" on the basis of the same cultural identity found in member states. A centralized government is ideal for most local governments finding it hard to reform their local state. The problem with the E.U is that it's "big", "slow" and does not inform properly it's citizens about the way it functions.
- USNavyBlue, on 06/14/2008, -4/+8Ireland wants to remain a "sovereign" nation as most of the people of the many European Countries, however they had no choice in the matter to vote yes or no. That is NOT democracy. The majority of the people in the different European countries are VERY HAPPY this did not pass. As you can see from reading many of the posts here. Just because in the past their has been "bad blood" between them really has nothing to do with giving up each sovereign nation to form one European Country - that is the definition of tyranny and Communism.
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -15/+53dupe of Mine: http://digg.com/world_news/No_side_in_Lisbon_Treat ...
Anyway I voted No, but can the people claiming it was a vote against Europe, or to leave the EU, or saying we only voted no out of Fear please SHUT THE ***** UP.
The Treaty was badly explained, govt ministers admitted not reading it.
We would lose a commissioner 5/15 years, vetos, it brought forward plans for common EU defence, which although we would not have to participate it, is not the way the EU should go.
The EU is a WONDERFUL thing, WE are PRO EU and this No vote was not a vote against it, It was Us the PEOPLE of Ireland having our say about how things should be going. Our NO vote was ACTIVE participation in Europe, something many european ministers don't seem to understand.
IREALAND DOES NOT SHARE THE EUROSCEPTICISM THAT ENGLAND AND THE US HAS.
don't tar us with that brush. We are a Pro EU country.
And I'm glad we voted no.- mmccarthy, on 06/14/2008, -2/+11Well said :)
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -2/+2I'm just so sick of being misrepresented, by the Yes side, or by idiot europhobies in other countries...
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -2/+2I'm just so sick of being misrepresented, by the Yes side, or by idiot europhobies in other countries...
- seanieb, on 06/14/2008, -3/+3I can gather from from your points against it (ala sinn fein) and your user name that you are follower of Sinn Fein.
The fact that Sinn Fein/Gerry Adams has the balls to even weigh in on something like this, has me stunned. Gerry Adams showed his total lack of understanding of politics in the Rep. of Ireland and European issues during the leaders debates before the last election. He and his party lack the credentials to make a call on this matter. ok sinn fein has one person, Mary loo, but what about all the other parties European representatives?
The sovereignty and independence issue is a huge simplification of the treaty, and neglects specific mention of Ireland's neutrality in the treaty.- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -2/+4No i hate sinn fein, you shouldn't make assumptions so readily.
My username has absolutely nothing to do with that.- rupaw, on 06/14/2008, -2/+2You're right! Austria joined 1995 as one of the biggest payer to the EU (relative to the number of citizens). We spent a lot, but obviously not enough to give you a good education. We are a rich country but our and Germanys money (did I mention that I'm German living in Austria) was wasted on Ireland.
I say it again. You Irish should leave the EU. Me and my countrymen would vote for this anytime. Let's make a referendum here and see who wants to pay the Irish. And let's make another referendum about asking you and your folks about the money back that we gave them. Guess we would have a majority hands down!
I guess I know your answer already:" arse, idiot, a**hole." Profanity: That's what you Irish are good at! But not anything else... :-) - rupaw, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Know that replying at the right place is not possible. Digg doesn't allow unlimited nested threads. Nobody can reply to your insulting answer below.
- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1rupaw: don't flame. Although I'm in the same camp, it's annoying
- rupaw, on 06/14/2008, -2/+2You're right! Austria joined 1995 as one of the biggest payer to the EU (relative to the number of citizens). We spent a lot, but obviously not enough to give you a good education. We are a rich country but our and Germanys money (did I mention that I'm German living in Austria) was wasted on Ireland.
- rupaw, on 06/14/2008, -5/+3I'm sorry but what you say makes no sense. We spent billions of Euros on your country to pump up your economy and now you're the biggest blocker of the European union. I hope the EU kicks Ireland out, I really do. The worst thing that could happen to us is if we delay the ratification of the treaty just because of Ireland. If you don't want a strong Europe, why are you not just leaving. We would save a buck or two if you did.
- Findeton, on 06/14/2008, -1/+4No not. It is the rest of the countries who have blocked the european union. In fact, if you bother to read the official stadistics, it is in Ireland where there is the biggest percentage of support to the European Union.
Owwmykneecap IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. This no to the treaty is the biggest yes to the European Union that Ireland and anyone could get. Because this treaty is so important and so bad that it must be rejected. - Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -3/+3You did in your arse. Austria Joined in 95
In 1995 we were not the Poor country we were in the 80's
you are a misinformed idiot and if one country cost europe a lot of money it's austria, haha - mickoneill30, on 06/14/2008, -0/+0Explain the main points of the treaty here Rupaw will you. As you're so much for it.
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -0/+4Rupaw said: "You're right! Austria joined 1995 as one of the biggest payer to the EU (relative to the number of citizens). We spent a lot, but obviously not enough to give you a good education. We are a rich country but our and Germanys money (did I mention that I'm German living in Austria) was wasted on Ireland.
I say it again. You Irish should leave the EU. Me and my countrymen would vote for this anytime. Let's make a referendum here and see who wants to pay the Irish. And let's make another referendum about asking you and your folks about the money back that we gave them. Guess we would have a majority hands down!
I guess I know your answer already:" arse, idiot, a**hole." Profanity: That's what you Irish are good at! But not anything else... :-)"
If you're education is so great, try replying in the right place.
My education can't cope with it, after all our system was rated 2nd in the world just behind Japan.
Profanity is all Ireland is good at? from you post it seems racism is all germany/austria are capable of.
Thankfully I've been there and I know Austria and its people are much better than that.
you'll have no fear about a referendum my friend, you're gov would be to scared you might actually reject it.
The point of the EU is not to be in it and do what you are told, but to play an active part. - JamesMatt, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2in terms of membership Ireland has been in the EEC/ EU for the past 35 years, Austria are only spring chickens in the EU.................
- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1Eire the biggest Pro-EU? You forget Spain my friend. To let you know, 78% voted yes on the still not watered down Constitution back then. That was with a high voters turn-out.
- Findeton, on 06/14/2008, -1/+4No not. It is the rest of the countries who have blocked the european union. In fact, if you bother to read the official stadistics, it is in Ireland where there is the biggest percentage of support to the European Union.
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -2/+4No i hate sinn fein, you shouldn't make assumptions so readily.
- groovechamp30, on 06/14/2008, -4/+5What a name...owwmykneecap...
Nice, supporter of terrorists are you?- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -0/+5I assume you didn't see where I explicitly said I don't like Sinn fein?
- JamesMatt, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3Jesus bud your getting it in the neck!!! :o)
how the hell does some associate your name with Sinn Fein? hehehehe
- JamesMatt, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3Jesus bud your getting it in the neck!!! :o)
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -0/+5I assume you didn't see where I explicitly said I don't like Sinn fein?
- USNavyBlue, on 06/14/2008, -3/+3Well said!
Most people in the USA no that Ireland does not share the EUROSCEPTICISM - its our unfortunately corrupt government! - trumpcard, on 06/14/2008, -9/+2Blah Blah Blah ...you seem angry like most Irish terrorists who voted no.
- mmccarthy, on 06/14/2008, -0/+3This was about ordinary well educated Irish people who support Europe voting No. They didn't understand what they were being asked to vote for and the Yes campaign was very badly organised. They just assumed that it would be passed as the majority in Ireland are pro Europe. If it goes to a re-vote and the commission explains the main points of the treaty better to the people of Ireland it will probably pass.
- mickoneill30, on 06/14/2008, -1/+1They weren't that well educated if they didn't understand what they were being asked to vote on.
If you don't understand you shouldn't vote. - mmccarthy, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1@mickoneill30
Have you seen the size of the treaty? Have you read it?
This was a very complicated issue. - zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+22600pages, read actually easily, not what you would expect from a governement text. Give it a try.
- mickoneill30, on 06/14/2008, -1/+1They weren't that well educated if they didn't understand what they were being asked to vote on.
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1That's nice and offensive.
- mmccarthy, on 06/14/2008, -0/+3This was about ordinary well educated Irish people who support Europe voting No. They didn't understand what they were being asked to vote for and the Yes campaign was very badly organised. They just assumed that it would be passed as the majority in Ireland are pro Europe. If it goes to a re-vote and the commission explains the main points of the treaty better to the people of Ireland it will probably pass.
- JohnP, on 06/14/2008, -1/+5Im sorry but read the comments all over the web and tell me the no vote wasnt to 'destroy the EU'...
You may be someone who voted no for good reason, but the majority are just ignorant.- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -1/+1Of people that didn't vote, yeah I've seen them too.
Most comments i 've seen are of people getting angry because the vote is being misrepresented, By Yes side, rightwing nutters, little Englanders and a host of others who don't make up Ireland's ordinary Working and Middle class. - flavioribeiro, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2Ask these people why the no vote was to "destroy the EU", then. Because if you research the case, it's pretty obvious that the Lisbon Treaty effectively creates a country called Europe, where the member states have little individual power and have to submit to a central government.
The section dealing with the military is particularly scary, because this treaty tells the member countries to beef up their armed forces and submit them to the EU.- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1"The section dealing with the military is particularly scary, because this treaty tells the member countries to beef up their armed forces and submit them to the EU."
It doesn't, they're talking about a Euro-corps, but it's not in the treaty.
- zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1"The section dealing with the military is particularly scary, because this treaty tells the member countries to beef up their armed forces and submit them to the EU."
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -1/+1Of people that didn't vote, yeah I've seen them too.
- jwkpiano1, on 06/14/2008, -1/+7Dude, Ireland doesn't always deserve a minister there. Your population doesn't justify it. Remember one person, one vote? Less than a million people just affected the lives of 500 million. Thanks, Ireland.
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -2/+4yeah and 490 million had no say at all.
- rupaw, on 06/15/2008, -1/+4Have you ever heard about the democratic principle to elect people into power who are then enabled to make decisions for the good of your nation. Democracy is not just if you ask every ass in your country all the time. What are Irish members of Parlament do all day if not casting votes on behalf of the people. This is the most ignorant statement about the whole thing. Nobody asked you to cast the vote for almost 500 million people. Take responsibility for your own actions and fact the consequences but don't hide behind people whose opinions you don't even know.
- mmccarthy, on 06/15/2008, -1/+4@rupaw
It's a little difficult to know the opinions of people who weren't give the right to vote. If you prefer to live in a less democratic society that is your right but we'll take our democracy thank you very much. - ffttoteof, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1@rupaw
Are you honestly suggesting that because most people in the EU weren't given the chance to vote, that Irish people should have abstained?
"Well, I'd like to vote on this, but it just doesn't feel fair because the rest of the EU citizens couldn't, so I'll just go home." - jwkpiano1, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2Wrong, they elected those people who approved it.
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -2/+4yeah and 490 million had no say at all.
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -1/+5lets get one thing clear to the People trying to give me a bad name,
Owwmykneecap is my username, it derives from when I was signing up to a website and my friend messing beside me hurt her knee and said...
"Oww my knee-cap"
Nothing else, Ok.
Now debate this issues. - mickoneill30, on 06/14/2008, -0/+1The treaty of Nice agreed the reduction of commissioners. The treaty of Lisbon was to outline how it is to be done. Its still going to be done. We just don't know how now. We could get a worse deal.
What vetos were we going to lose????? Please don't bring up the stupid tax arguments. If you read the treaty you'd know those arguments were crap. - soupr, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2England support the treaty, they're not Eurosceptics :)
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -1/+3The people (probably) wouldn't, if it was put to a popular vote.
But they are very unhappy with their gov though.
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -1/+3The people (probably) wouldn't, if it was put to a popular vote.
- mbraynard, on 06/15/2008, -1/+5Well, your post makes no sense at all. You voted down, essentially, an EU constitution. The same document under a different name.
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/15/2008, -2/+2Explain to me how it makes no sense.. please.
- mbraynard, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3It was a Eurosceptic vote. It's like you are a pro-Lisbon poster trying to spin the results to us ignorant internationals.
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/16/2008, -0/+2That's just incorrect
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/15/2008, -2/+2Explain to me how it makes no sense.. please.
- blackhappy, on 06/15/2008, -2/+1I could really give a ***** about Lisbon, just wanted to say that Hurling is a pretty kick ass sport. Saw it for the first time the other day on some random sports channel.
- mmccarthy, on 06/15/2008, -0/+1LOL! It's a dangerous game.
- mmccarthy, on 06/14/2008, -2/+11Well said :)
- Panda200x, on 06/14/2008, -8/+12Glad to be Irish here :D
There was a strong campaign against it here, some of the billboards were epic. - tororosso, on 06/14/2008, -22/+18Why EU is good from a practical point of view:
1. One currency, easy for people travelling, moving about within the EU.
2. Less corruption, more rights for workers, particularly evident in former Eastern Bloc countries.
3. Better consumer and environmental protection laws.
...
Anyways, it's easy to be euro-sceptic, ie. recycle NWO and big-government arguments in lazy and non-pertinent ways ;)- jkleinfeld, on 06/14/2008, -3/+7A shining beacon of truth in this otherwise sea of ignorance
- Redzin, on 06/14/2008, -14/+9To be honest, I have no idea what this treaty was about. The only thing I know about it is that, if it was passed, we would have to elect a president (I know this because the current Prime Minister of my country, IE Denmark, is considered a candidate).
Perosnally, I'd rather have people who know what they are talking about and how things work make the decisions than having a national vote. In national votes, the majority of voters tend to have no idea wtf they are voting about, and thus the vote is kinda obsolete and random. As I said, I have no idea what this treaty was about, and neither do 99% of other europeans. I'm quite happy there was no vote in most countries... we'll have to see how the Irish are gonna affect us now (be it for better or worse).- stopbrorape, on 06/14/2008, -6/+2it's called democracy bitch.
- plingboot, on 06/14/2008, -1/+4indeed, and we elect governments for this reason.
I'd rather trust a informed intelligent elected minority than to put important decisions to a referendum of mostly uneducated ignorant mass of idiots such as yourself.- kieranmaine, on 06/15/2008, -2/+1If the "uneducated ignorant mass of idiots" do not know anything about voting for people how do they know they're voting in "informed intelligent" people and not just someone with an agenda?
As much as the "uneducated ignorant mass of idiots" don't always do what is sensible, it's up to people to try and and educate each other.
- kieranmaine, on 06/15/2008, -2/+1If the "uneducated ignorant mass of idiots" do not know anything about voting for people how do they know they're voting in "informed intelligent" people and not just someone with an agenda?
- plingboot, on 06/14/2008, -1/+4indeed, and we elect governments for this reason.
- rupaw, on 06/14/2008, -4/+5The Irish vote shouldn't affect us at all. If they Irish have a problem with the EU, they should just leave. Nobody would miss them!
- JamesMatt, on 06/14/2008, -0/+4IRONIC: there is no process set out to leave the EU HOWEVER.....if the Lisbon treaty was passed
The Treaty of Lisbon provides a process for withdrawal.
anyways majority of Irish people are extremely happy with being members of the EU we have all benefited from membership. - mmccarthy, on 06/14/2008, -0/+2The Irish don't have a problem with the EU, they have a problem being asked to vote on a treaty the size of a book without someone explaining it properly. You may be happy to let others decide for you but we like to have some say.
- rupaw, on 06/15/2008, -3/+2You should read the European newspapers today. Most ask Ireland to leave the union. This vote will have consequences that none of you Irish have anticipated. From now on you're OUT (and that's a good thing for Europe BTW). I can't even tell you how I loath this provincial ignorance of you. Europe won't be taken hostage by a couple of potato farmers!
- mmccarthy, on 06/15/2008, -1/+1@rupaw
I saw you picked out a short list of headlines that you felt most reinforced your view. That doesn't mean there is no other point of view out there. Your aggressive and obnoxious stance in this thread does the EU no favours at all. The Irish don't respond to threats. The shear ignorance of your position and your lack of knowledge of the actual facts are letting you down. I will not engage with you any further as its obvious where you stand. - kieranmaine, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3@rupaw
Why are you so angry? It's just one treaty that most people don't understand because no one has explained it to them. Maybe if things were broken down into nice small piecemeal parts that everyone could easily learn about then things might get moving. The EU needs to apply some agile processes to its evolution. - zeabu, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2Kieranmaine: If you don't understand physics, you should not vote against the theory of gravity. The same happens with the treaty. If you don't understand it, a yes or a no is void, you should retain yourself from voting.
- kieranmaine, on 06/16/2008, -0/+2Zeabu:
Maybe "don't understand" should be replaced with "don't know everything about". If people had the chance to read the whole treaty I'm sure most people would understand them. Still, if someone doesn't know, or understand, how a change to there laws may affect them, it makes more sense to vote no than to not vote. If you don't vote you may allow people to bring in something that could be detrimental to you. On the other hand it might be great. But by voting no you're essentially saying to the people that create these treaties, that they've done a terrible job at getting there point across, but feel free to try again. Thus my point in making the changes smaller and more easy to disseminate to the populous.
The same things applies to gravity. If you don't explain to people how voting gravity in will affect them, why should they abstain from voting, when abstaining could lead to the current status quo being changed, which they understand.
- JamesMatt, on 06/14/2008, -0/+4IRONIC: there is no process set out to leave the EU HOWEVER.....if the Lisbon treaty was passed
- stopbrorape, on 06/14/2008, -6/+2it's called democracy bitch.
- RRJackson, on 06/14/2008, -11/+36The last thing Europe needs is a sitting president who speaks for the entire EU. Lisbon was a terrible idea and thankfully Ireland put a bullet in it.
- dhughes, on 06/14/2008, -4/+15> The last thing Europe needs is a sitting president who speaks for the entire EU.
Why not?- JohnP, on 06/14/2008, -4/+5Yeah, it could counter the war mongering of the US president OR be a good friend for Barack Obama
- RRJackson, on 06/14/2008, -9/+2Obama will need friends after he loses in November. Maybe he can go on a lecture tour in the EU and sympathize with the authors of Lisbon on what it's like to lose a popular vote. ;-)
- plingboot, on 06/14/2008, -3/+4
Doesn't the EU already counter the war mongering? And Europe already has a presidency, its rotated every 6 months between EU members. All this rejected treaty would have done is to create a permanent 2 year post. But many think its a step closer to a United States of Europe type of super state, which no-one really wants.
- JohnP, on 06/14/2008, -4/+5Yeah, it could counter the war mongering of the US president OR be a good friend for Barack Obama
- igyigyigy, on 06/14/2008, -1/+12Why do you say that's a bad idea?
- rupaw, on 06/14/2008, -6/+7Ireland put a bullet in its own head. Do you really think that we - the rest of Europe - care if Ireland wants to leave the Union? We pumped billions in their country, after their departure we actually might save a buck or two. Ireland should just leave the EU. Nobody that I know would give a damn about them! Why would Germans, the French or the Portuguese change anything because of the Irish?
If you don't like it LEAVE! Good bye! :-)- RRJackson, on 06/14/2008, -2/+3Why don't we wait and see what happens? I doubt Ireland is going to be leaving the EU and from the looks of things their vote has stopped the Lisbon's momentum. FWIW, as an American I'm just watching this from the sidelines, but I spent part of May in Ireland and was fascinated by the discussion that was going on about Lisbon. Very politically-active population there.
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -1/+4Austria joined in 95 you idiot, you pumped nothing into our country.
you are an obnoxious idiot, who doesn't seem to want to follow the rules of the EU.
i.e. unless all countries pass this, it can't go ahead.
The E.U is about more than Germans, the French or the Portuguese or the Austrians.
Austria is only a little country anyway, it can't even put on a football tournament itself.- rupaw, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2And they Irish (and English) suck at football so much that they don't even qualify ... OK! So do the Austrians - that's why we hosted the event in the first place - BUT AT LEAST WE DO IT WITH OUT OWN MONEY! When was the last time you did anything without EU-money? Well it's time that you get used to paying for your own stuff. Maybe one day you can afford to host your own tournament, but I doubt it.
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -1/+2Yo Rupaw, we don't get EU money, We pay money to the EU
We haven't got money in years.
Go shout at some eastern europeans
- plingboot, on 06/14/2008, -1/+5Er... This isn't a vote to leave the EU.
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -2/+3exactly.
1000 diggs to you. - zcreem, on 06/15/2008, -1/+2No but it means in part at least that Ireland will be left behind, because the rest will go ahead anyway.
It is the start of a two tier Europe, with France and Germany at the front.
A bit like EU 2.0
- Owwmykneecap, on 06/14/2008, -2/+3exactly.
- dhughes, on 06/15/2008, -0/+3 Doesn't Ireland have one of the strongest economies in the world right now?
- zcreem, on 06/15/2008, -1/+3Small but thriving, not the same as strong in the sense it cant dictate to anyone.
And without EU support how long will it last.
- zcreem, on 06/15/2008, -1/+3Small but thriving, not the same as strong in the sense it cant dictate to anyone.
- ffttoteof, on 06/15/2008, -0/+2Holy Jesus, how does Ireland's voting no on this translate into "they want to leave the EU"? All it means is they weren't happy with the Lisbon treaty.
"If you don't like it LEAVE!"
No. In a democracy, if you don't like it, try and change it. That's what voting is for.
- bagelmaster, on 06/14/2008, -1/+4One negative I can see (as an American, on the sidelines) is that a president would probably be looking out for the interests of whatever country he came from. And that country would probably be
- dhughes, on 06/14/2008, -4/+15> The last thing Europe needs is a sitting president who speaks for the entire EU.