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Why Global Hackers Are Nearly Impossible to Catch
livescience.com — They're in our computers, reading our files. The Chinese government, that is, according to two U.S. Congressmen who recently accused Beijing of sending hackers to ferret out secret documents stored on Congressional computers. The Chinese deny any involvement, but if they were lying, would we be able to prove it?
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- knucklebusted, on 06/19/2008, -2/+39Senators are not capable of telling who is hacking their computers. First, the fact that a government owned/purposed computer is that insecure is completely unacceptable. Any computer used by a government official should be locked down to the point the good senator can no longer surf prσn and other sites that are known to infect said senator's computer with the spyware required to allow the hackers a foothold.
- misterhektik, on 06/20/2008, -2/+12They obviously aren't using Gibson's. No one can hack the gibson.
Hack the planet!- ikcilabd, on 06/20/2008, -0/+5get me the switching control center, i need to trace a call thats in progress
- jemka, on 06/20/2008, -0/+20Having once worked for the defense department, we had several classes of electronic media that were forbidden to reside on any machine connected to the Internet. This was not a hard task to accomplish either. If you were working on something top secret, you weren't on a machine that was directly connected to the internet. If you had to share top secret information with another department / location / country, you did so following the proper procedures; none of which included the internet.
We don't need to spend billions trying to secure an open system. We need to spend a few million buying extra hardware that government employees can work on when separation from the internet is necessary.- triad203, on 06/20/2008, -0/+5It's a bit easier to secure things when you have a whole separate internet that is classified...
- jemka, on 06/20/2008, -0/+2:)
- logandurand, on 06/20/2008, -0/+2Really, don't you people have your own networks for this sort of thing? The last thing you'd want to do is connect government computers to privately owned, publicly accessible networks.
- jemka, on 06/20/2008, -0/+3They know. The point is that congressman and senator ***** aren't really endangering our countries most precious information. Now emails to prostitutes, on the other hand, aren't as easy to secure.
- iiiears, on 06/21/2008, -0/+1Attack the home machine "update" the firmware - soon it burns your trojan to all media in slack space and copies a bit of it to all multimedia/files/thumbdrives. If you even once play an mp3 at work they get access. You can't make the machine "clean" again ever.
- triad203, on 06/20/2008, -0/+5It's a bit easier to secure things when you have a whole separate internet that is classified...
- skags, on 06/20/2008, -1/+2It takes an investment in talented people. Government doesn't pay IT people too well, so they don't get people who know what they're doing.
- misterhektik, on 06/20/2008, -2/+12They obviously aren't using Gibson's. No one can hack the gibson.
- alanr19, on 06/20/2008, -13/+37Install linux/Unix/BSD and implement a proper security policy. Problem goes away.
- davidpeace2002, on 06/20/2008, -0/+11And linux/BSD are FREE! Imagine the savings to the taxpayers!
- nanja, on 06/20/2008, -6/+0i would like to discover linux, we are so overwhelmed by windows , you must search really well to find computer with linux because not all of us are so genius in computers to change a computer from windows to linux, at least i am afraid to do it myself, and i am afraid that they don't have the same support as windows..i am positive though to linux. As for the governments computers i don't care if they are hacked, i care about personal computers to be safe.
- jemka, on 06/20/2008, -1/+7I'm guessing you chose nanja not becuase ninja was taken, but because you just spelled it wrong.
- xptweakerntn, on 06/20/2008, -0/+1jemka, I'd bet several pretty pennies that you nailed it!
- PabloMac, on 06/20/2008, -0/+1ESL much?
- davidpeace2002, on 06/24/2008, -0/+1You can use Linux on any pc. I use Ubuntu Linux on an HP tablet that was "designed" for vista. Go to Ubuntu.com, download an image, burn it to a cd and install. Good luck.
- Dajhan, on 06/20/2008, -2/+1linux/BSD is hard to crack (for many), but it doesn't me its unhackable. you really think OS matters when hackers attack you?
Implementing proper security is not enough, you guys ('coz I'm not a American) need to tighten your cyber defences.
- nanja, on 06/20/2008, -6/+0i would like to discover linux, we are so overwhelmed by windows , you must search really well to find computer with linux because not all of us are so genius in computers to change a computer from windows to linux, at least i am afraid to do it myself, and i am afraid that they don't have the same support as windows..i am positive though to linux. As for the governments computers i don't care if they are hacked, i care about personal computers to be safe.
- Rahodeb, on 06/20/2008, -1/+6Yeah, then they can't work at all!
j/k :P - wiretapped, on 06/20/2008, -2/+2Can you describe to me what a proper security policy is?
- jemka, on 06/20/2008, -6/+1Doubtful. I think alanr19 is the type of person that uses their favorite flavor of linux purely to impress other people.
Can you check your mail on my computer? Sure. Where's the start button? You noob!!!! Its LINUX there is no start button. You Micro$oft $lave!!!11!!!!- jvincent08, on 06/20/2008, -0/+5You've obviously never actually used Linux, or used a very minimalistic install with no GUI.
- alanr19, on 06/20/2008, -1/+8Ok I'll tell you.
Users should only be able to access what they need to access in order to do their job.
Desktops shut down at night. (This is when all the intrusions happen!)
A prescribed minimum strength password policy.
Update software often (I know some in the State Dept. that use unpatched vanilla Win 2000 professional - 8 years without patching!!!!)
Physical barriers to certain systems.
No confidential info on Laptops!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Encrypt laptops volumes anyway.
Reduce laptop use.
VPN from external desktops using smart cards with temperal keys.
Constant technical and social hacking tests run by independant external contractors that report monthy.
The list goes on and on and on
- jemka, on 06/20/2008, -6/+1Doubtful. I think alanr19 is the type of person that uses their favorite flavor of linux purely to impress other people.
- jemka, on 06/20/2008, -2/+6Mark today as the day alanr19 single-handedly developed a plan to make the US government computer infrastructure impervious to hacking. Simple answer; Install linux/Unix/BSD and implement a proper security policy.
For get MIT, just ask alanr19.- alanr19, on 06/20/2008, -4/+2So whats your suggestion? Keeping in mind that according to you proper security policies won't work neither will secure OS's.
I can't wait to hear this......
(Oh and every time you mention Apple you'll lose a finger, god damn fanboys)- jemka, on 06/20/2008, -0/+2Well contrary to your solution, exploits are rarely the direct result of the OS. Choose all the OS's you want, a secure system is only as secure as it's weakest point. Sure you need a tight OS, but more importantly you need control over the applications your OS runs. I say "more importantly" because today, most COTS OS's will be just as secure as the next so long as you tighten up your graphics a little. And by that I mean your applications.
No disrespect, ok well a little, but you have to admit a secure OS does dick if you don't secure your applications. - alanr19, on 06/20/2008, -0/+1@jemka
"Well contrary to your solution, exploits are rarely the direct result of the OS."
Ok I can tell straight off that you are not very well up on the latest exploits that are in the wild. Not a good start.
"Choose all the OS's you want, a secure system is only as secure as it's weakest point. "
That's why I said a secure OS in conjunction with a good security policy is needed. Ya know.... to eliminate weak points. Did you even read my post?
"but you have to admit a secure OS does dick if you don't secure your applications."
Secure your applications? You're not making sense. Are you trying to say only install applications proven to be secure? If so then agreed.
- jemka, on 06/20/2008, -0/+2Well contrary to your solution, exploits are rarely the direct result of the OS. Choose all the OS's you want, a secure system is only as secure as it's weakest point. Sure you need a tight OS, but more importantly you need control over the applications your OS runs. I say "more importantly" because today, most COTS OS's will be just as secure as the next so long as you tighten up your graphics a little. And by that I mean your applications.
- alanr19, on 06/20/2008, -4/+2So whats your suggestion? Keeping in mind that according to you proper security policies won't work neither will secure OS's.
- madwaxer, on 06/20/2008, -0/+2that would make it hard for the .N.S.A. to do their Windows-enabled back-door snooping. think about it; what is stopping windows from securing their kernel by disabling open ports by default?
- madwaxer, on 06/20/2008, -0/+1that would make it hard for the .N.S.A. to do their Windows-enabled back-door snooping. think about it; what is stopping windows from securing their kernel by disabling open ports by default?
XP, NT,ME, 98, Vista are all multi purpose tools for easier monitoring. they may be losing their control over OS use to unix systems but it doesn't mean they won't do all they can to stop it. if i get a hold of any ppl whose PC need a fixing i always replace their OS with their choice of unix platforms. eventually they call to ask what other programs they can add to it. just like learning to use ant other OS. - chrispr, on 06/20/2008, -0/+1Right, because high value linux targets have never been hacked by skilled hackers.
/sarcasm - maxgoedjen, on 06/20/2008, -1/+0The US Government: Proudly Running Windows Servers Since 1995!
- davidpeace2002, on 06/24/2008, -0/+1Proudly running Windows '95.
- iiiears, on 06/21/2008, -0/+1Firmware "updated" is forever.
- davidpeace2002, on 06/20/2008, -0/+11And linux/BSD are FREE! Imagine the savings to the taxpayers!
- dsa202, on 06/20/2008, -10/+2It's probably because they use a proxy. You can't trace it back when you use one of those.
- Matt2k, on 06/20/2008, -0/+7Well, I don't know if I'd call it a proxy exactly, although that's what they are. You compromise multiple machines and tunnel your connection through them, or just SSH/RDP. Do that through a few in a row and you have a hard trace to follow. Each one could be in a separate country, involving new police, getting new warrants, dealing with new sets of server owners. Its generally not worth the effort.
- dsa202, on 06/20/2008, -5/+0Too much effort my friend.
- RonBurgundy76, on 06/20/2008, -0/+4Well, if you're messing around with government computers, you'll go to jail a lot sooner than he will. So perhaps the effort is worth it, eh?
- thedarkwolf, on 06/20/2008, -1/+1ssh -L
FTW
- dsa202, on 06/20/2008, -5/+0Too much effort my friend.
- Ninjab3ar, on 06/20/2008, -0/+5Wow, you're a pro..
- dondara, on 06/20/2008, -0/+1*Blink* Yeah, thanks for playing.
- Matt2k, on 06/20/2008, -0/+7Well, I don't know if I'd call it a proxy exactly, although that's what they are. You compromise multiple machines and tunnel your connection through them, or just SSH/RDP. Do that through a few in a row and you have a hard trace to follow. Each one could be in a separate country, involving new police, getting new warrants, dealing with new sets of server owners. Its generally not worth the effort.
- an0nymous, on 06/20/2008, -10/+3Yeah. Spying is bad!
http://digg.com/politics/George_Bush_s_Latest_Powe ... - ikcilabd, on 06/20/2008, -1/+12If I were gonna hack some heavy metal, I'd, uh, work my way back through some low security, and try the back door.
/some movie- nstlgc, on 06/20/2008, -0/+3War Games. The backdoor is Joshua.
- ikcilabd, on 06/20/2008, -0/+1Faulkner is amazing looking
- nstlgc, on 06/20/2008, -0/+3War Games. The backdoor is Joshua.
- DuffyDirect, on 06/20/2008, -5/+1why are pat robertson and al sharpton sitting next to each other?
- seomike, on 06/20/2008, -0/+4Because Jesus wants you to go green and help them make more money...
- durden0, on 06/20/2008, -2/+26Sadly, the best hackers, i.e. titan rain and other such groups, are nearly undetectable to all but the best security professionals out there. The few who do have the ability to combat these skilled hackers, are spread too thin, or are working for the NSA figuring out how to better spy on americans to 'protect us'.
- eviljolly, on 06/20/2008, -1/+345 ways to fake a location: (yes I know there are more)
1. VPN
2. Remote desktop/VNC/RDP
3. SSH
4. Proxy
5. Poisoned route (less common these days)
The point is that you can make yourself look like you came from another computer from just about anywhere, and if there are no logs to prove that you were connected to that machine, which there usually aren't, then you have no "paper trail" to prove you were even there.
Welcome to the internet, enjoy your anonymity while it lasts. I think governments are going to make changes before this carries on for too much longer.- alanr19, on 06/20/2008, -0/+11Poisoned route (DNS poisoning) is quite easily implemented when you are a repressive despotic government with absolute control.
I'd strongly suspect this method. - MacSuxWindozSux, on 06/20/2008, -0/+6Walk into Starbucks and use their wifi. Nuff said.
- eviljolly, on 06/20/2008, -0/+3http://www.flickr.com/photos/shanghaidaddy/3700269 ...
I guess you're right :P- megasmakie, on 06/20/2008, -1/+0lol - did anyone else think 'frickr?'
/joke
//korean - NodOfficer, on 06/20/2008, -0/+2I believe the United States has now found their first targets to bomb if war should ever be declared.
"That Starbucks was harboring CYBER-TERRORISTS!"
- megasmakie, on 06/20/2008, -1/+0lol - did anyone else think 'frickr?'
- Gimpishi, on 06/20/2008, -1/+1Just remember the mac address tied to your device the next time you try that...
- Lounger540, on 06/20/2008, -0/+7Yeah, because that's so hard to change...
- eviljolly, on 06/20/2008, -0/+6Even a script kiddie could spoof a Wi-Fi MAC address....
Atheros chipsets and a few others even allow packet injection. (great for WEP cracking) - MacSuxWindozSux, on 06/20/2008, -0/+1There's a lot of wifi cards and routers that allow the mac address to be merely typed in. Especially if you are using open source firmware.
- rizla420, on 06/20/2008, -0/+2Better yet, build your own wifi predator and jump on an AP up to 1km away. No need to be in the store.
- eviljolly, on 06/20/2008, -0/+3http://www.flickr.com/photos/shanghaidaddy/3700269 ...
- Lick, on 06/20/2008, -0/+1What if China's security is f-ed up and US anti-patriot hackers are faking their location as if they were in China?
- baylat, on 06/20/2008, -0/+2ahhh the conspiracies. Its like reading Tom Clancy's novels.
- Dajhan, on 06/20/2008, -0/+0I suspect, they will not use the conventional methods.
- alanr19, on 06/20/2008, -0/+11Poisoned route (DNS poisoning) is quite easily implemented when you are a repressive despotic government with absolute control.
- dmark77, on 06/20/2008, -0/+16Kind of like that time Boeing was going to sell China that new state-of-the-art 747 they wanted.
Till they found out the CIA bugged everything (including the bathroom).- alanr19, on 06/20/2008, -2/+7I'm not disagreeing with you but how could the sound of chinese bowel movements and urination be of interest to them?
Thats just weird.- UberNick, on 06/20/2008, -0/+13They sell it to the Japanese, duh.
- CarzorStelatis, on 06/20/2008, -0/+7Find out which politician is having sex with his secretary, in order to try and get information from the secretary?
- Sponky, on 06/20/2008, -0/+6Because that's where their agents listen to their mission objective recordings.
After the tapes self destruct they flush the remains down the toilet.
Also it's a good place to put on a false face to avoid a "tail" so video surveillance is warranted. The titillation from the occasional communist pink bit is tolerated because it relieves the stress from not being able to surf for pron at work and keeps our agents happy and productive.
- alanr19, on 06/20/2008, -2/+7I'm not disagreeing with you but how could the sound of chinese bowel movements and urination be of interest to them?
- 3rdDay, on 06/20/2008, -0/+7Deeply disturbing. The accusation that hackers are going after political dissidents is really quite an unnerving prospect. Everything should be done to protect political activists who are working to establish and advance human rights and the computers terrorists who oppose them should be brought to justice.
- IdanH14, on 06/20/2008, -0/+2I think that's not going to happen soon. Here's why: In the international political arena, anything that can give one side an advantage will be done (if the risk-benefit ratio is in favor of doing it, of course). It's just how it works.
- digitallysick, on 06/20/2008, -3/+7Wanna be hackers? Code Crackers? Slackers? Wasting time with all the chat room yackers? - Weird Al
- wigren, on 06/20/2008, -0/+19 to 5 chillin' at Hewlett Packard, what!
- asanti24, on 06/20/2008, -1/+1they were not Chinese hacker, they are Larry flint hired hackers to discover new sexual affairs involving politicians.
- sinverb, on 06/22/2008, -0/+0LMAO!!!!
- popstation, on 06/20/2008, -2/+28The word HACKER gets tossed around to often, its losing its value.
- Rahodeb, on 06/20/2008, -0/+2...thanks to FPS aimbots
- BrosDuCK, on 06/20/2008, -0/+1Oh well said. Dugg.
- donkz, on 06/20/2008, -0/+1and life-hacks
- noumuon, on 06/20/2008, -0/+2yes, because the only real hacker is YOU. seriously though, hacker does get thrown around, but when the chinese government is breaking into your computer... i think you can let the term "hacker" slide.
- Rahodeb, on 06/20/2008, -0/+2...thanks to FPS aimbots
- rizla420, on 06/20/2008, -0/+12I consider myself fairly save computer and networking wise and i can assure you that the majority of incidents i see on my web server logs and my home router/firewall logs all tend to originate from somewhere in southeast asia. You'd be amazed at the volume of crap that comes through.
Case in point. I initially had set a fairly closed firewall policy on my router. I blocked all outgoing ports unless allowed by a specific service I enabled, sadly I didnt realize that the router passed through all external communication coming in. I have a secondary firewall in my setup that I have my home networks sitting behind and I was amazed and how many port scans were coming in all originating from over seas IP's. In these cases they were specificially looking for MSSQL servers listening on port 1026-1028. Every few minutes i'd get pinged. Luckily I had my second firewall with an explicit deny all policy that dropped all inbound unsolicited packets. I later had to customize my router/firewall (the one from my ISP.. verizon.. westell 327w) to specify my rules more explicitly.
Bottom line, if people just throw a pc/server out there and think they're secure because they dont think someone would attack "them" because they're a nobody. Think again, these are all automatic attacks that look for common vulnerabilities in various OS's. Once they get your box, your just another part of the swarm.- thedarkwolf, on 06/20/2008, -0/+1Survival time: http://isc.sans.org/survivaltime.html
For XP, on average, when bringing up a new box, you will be attacked on a vulnerable port/service before you can download and install the necessary security patches. Thats just scarry - Dajhan, on 06/20/2008, -0/+0Yup, that's true.
There are others who uses your server as a bridge (although I do not know why they do it, because I'm not one of them). Also, there are someothers out there, who automatically search new servers and see if there's anyting interesting on their archives. - Skooma714, on 06/20/2008, -0/+1I have the same router.
You can just block every IP-range from asia straight off.
- thedarkwolf, on 06/20/2008, -0/+1Survival time: http://isc.sans.org/survivaltime.html
- deathsythe, on 06/20/2008, -0/+3Torr- for the win!
- rizla420, on 06/20/2008, -0/+1You're actually really on the money. I've noticed attacks coming from end nodes on the tor network, some of the attacks were coming from MIT and I sent their network security an email about it and they said it was their TOR servers.. move along.
- IdanH14, on 06/20/2008, -0/+5Haven't they never heard about encryption? :O
Put all the senators files in a virtual, hidden and encrypted partition, using something like TrueCrypt or even something better (if something like that exists), and no one will be to crack that any time soon. It will take the damned Chinese hacker (or any hacker, for that matter) years to crack a decent encryption.- Dajhan, on 06/20/2008, -0/+0You seriously think that, huh? Maybe your up for a challenge (if ever a code smashing guy will be up for it).
Once a hacker gets a file, they get it, period.- Edan25, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1Eh, no. That's not how it works. There is no magic.
- iiiears, on 06/21/2008, -0/+1Do you understand the math used in encryption?
Do you program and read and understand all the source code for every encryption application you use?
Do you have access to and understand all the code included in your computers firmware?
Was your hardware/firmware manufactured in china? - (It is very possible your motherboard was)
You may be hacked already.
- Dajhan, on 06/20/2008, -0/+0You seriously think that, huh? Maybe your up for a challenge (if ever a code smashing guy will be up for it).
- BillOReilly08, on 06/20/2008, -1/+6I'M IN UR COMPUTERS, READIN UR FILEZ.
- Kinnkster, on 06/20/2008, -1/+4Did they really just say "They're in our computers, reading our files." ?
- Skooma714, on 06/20/2008, -0/+1A cat wrote it.
- wiretapped, on 06/20/2008, -1/+9The U.S.A is doing the same to China... don't be fooled by western propaganda.
- mattearle, on 06/20/2008, -0/+2Moreover, what the hell is the U.S. government going to do to China if they do catch them? They couldn't even beat Iraq in a war, China has one of the biggest armies in the world.
- BrosDuCK, on 06/20/2008, -0/+2Nuke them? :O
- Atomic1fire, on 06/21/2008, -0/+1EMP would be much more useful
considering its a hacking not a fullscale assult
rendering China dead at the core of its attacks
- mattearle, on 06/20/2008, -0/+2Moreover, what the hell is the U.S. government going to do to China if they do catch them? They couldn't even beat Iraq in a war, China has one of the biggest armies in the world.
- SystemLord, on 06/20/2008, -1/+5Crackers you idiots, crackers. When will the media stop referencing the Mittnick movie and selling ***** to public that computer hardware and software disassembling is a bad thing. Hackers learn for better, crackers break in for worse. Get your facts straight, but oh wait, it's internet!
- nuno86, on 06/20/2008, -0/+1Who cares if it's called crackers or hackers... ?
- thedogfatherx, on 06/20/2008, -0/+3Because they are living in dark basements with an unlimited supply of potato chips and pop. Duh.
- nousername22, on 06/20/2008, -0/+0They don't even have to hack businesses any more. With all the American companies that have moved to China, the just intercept all the traffic to and from the companies. They steal everything and we make it easy for them.
- zantos420, on 06/20/2008, -1/+1***** china
- narcofiche, on 06/20/2008, -0/+1I wish I was into hacking. I think a lot about the possibility that all the people and businesses who profited so much on the war, gas prices and pharmaceuticals could potentially control the country regardless of who is running it due to the crazy amount of money in their possession. If this ever comes true, one line of defense would be the knowledge behind all the technology that they depend on. It is very important.
- rizla420, on 06/20/2008, -1/+2Dont wish. Do. It requires *gasp* reading, studying, tinkering. The way i see it, i'm arming myself with the skills and tools for the future when the digital world is pervasive and controled by BigBrother and BigDaddy Corp. THose who know will be able to stay afloat. Those who dont will be caged in technologically.
- ShaoKahn, on 06/20/2008, -0/+1Wanna know what the U.S. had in mind to wage war on the internets? (a.k.a enemy weapons system)
http://cryptome.org/io-roadmap.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4655196.stm
Bloggers beware. - gregnorc, on 06/20/2008, -0/+27 PROXIES
- diablo2032, on 06/20/2008, -0/+0sounds like our US government needs to employee our own home-grown hackers to combat this electronic espionage threat.
- wonkavsn, on 06/20/2008, -0/+6Chill guys, it's cool. I just installed Sub Seven on ... China.
Pretty soon their cd trays will open without their consent and they'll be like "Holy crap!".. only in Chinese.- diablo2032, on 06/23/2008, -0/+0its been a while since i heard that name lol, whatever happeend to mobman, the guy that created it?
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