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Finnish police censors a critic of censorship
effi.org — Electronic Frontier Finland (Effi) demands the National Bureau of Investigation (NBI) of Finland to explain why it has censored a net site that criticises Internet censorship.
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- zache, on 02/12/2008, -2/+4Wikinews have also article about this:
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Finnish_internet_censo ...- Koookie, on 02/12/2008, -1/+4Fixed link: http://tinyurl.com/29e35q
- lekahe, on 02/12/2008, -6/+2Effi criticises yes, but their means are very questionable. They keep nagging why nothing is done and at the same time THEY PUBLISH the addresses. What is the point in this. Now those, who did not know the addresses but may be interested got good sources can see them. It is not so simple for the Finnish police to censor foreign websites who show the porn.
I read most of the content, also the Finnish part until I became sick of the way they are doing their "criticism".
My conclusion of this is a scam to get the list to distribution. It is not censored yet, since I got the access
BURY!!!- p1ru, on 02/12/2008, -0/+41. EFFI is not publishing anything, expect their press release.
2. The website is only blocked for some of the finnish ISP so far. It *IS* blocked for me (kymp.net).
3. lekahe: You're finnish. Read:
http://www.tekniikkatalous.fi/ict/article59589.ece
http://www.tietokone.fi/uutta/uutinen.asp?news_id= ...- lekahe, on 02/13/2008, -1/+1The press release has a link to the website and I can access it via Sonera and Nikki has links to the list. I am not favouring censorship, but publishing lists like that is irresponsible.
If there is even one link to child porn, the site has to be banned!
There are more civilized ways to make the difference.- wheany, on 02/13/2008, -1/+2The list has been aggregated by scanning links form porn pages automatically and adding them to the list if the link is redirected to the police's information page.
So if you follow the links from lapsiporno.info, your browsing would already be blocked the moment you click the link.- lekahe, on 02/13/2008, -2/+2I am Finnish so I should not get access to the pages. I however do get them open. The first link I clicked at random goes straight to a child porn site!
- wheany, on 02/13/2008, -0/+1In other words the filters are trivial to bypass by using the same ISP you are using.
- lekahe, on 02/13/2008, -2/+1Who actually knows what the list is? Nikki claims that it is the list the police has, but I have been following this for the whole day and so far I have no evidence that the links on the site are on the police list.
As far as I can say this may be just an attempt to spread this material and advertise it by saying police has put filters on it.
Part of the Finnish internet providers have succeeded to filter Nikki's page according to local news, but not mine. - wheany, on 02/13/2008, -0/+2So you are saying that no other people have independently verified that those sites are indeed blocked? Or are you saying that there is some kind of conspiracy where several internet users in Finland, on multiple ISPs are lying that those sites are not accessible.
Look at how dumb you are. - lekahe, on 02/13/2008, -2/+1Nikki's site is blocked according to many users, but I have not seen anyone referring to the original list he has on his site!
Everybody is referring to him as he was some kind of a victim here without even knowing what they are actually talking about.
Maybe no one wants to admit that they have seen the original disgusting list!
Those who do not have access to Nikki's site, hopefully don't even find the links. - wheany, on 02/13/2008, -0/+2I have been following the list since its inception. I also use Sonera, so my home internetconnection has not been filtered. My mobile phone operator is Elisa and it currently blocks lapsiporno.info. Though, I have to admit that I haven't tried any of the links on my phone before, but I can do it now, I'll just copy the web page to my phone and start trying.
Also: there is another independent list at http://je.org/sensuurilista/
And one mirror of lapsiporno.info: http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/mjrauhal/lapsiporno.in ... - wheany, on 02/13/2008, -0/+1Okay, I did as I said I would, and saved the link file on my phone, using my unfiltered Sonera broadband connection.
Then I made a video where I test 3 links from the list using my phone's Elisa internet connection. It's on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_ymduwBzJ4 The video is poor quality, recorded on another phone, and the speech is in Finnish.
Spoiler Alert: All three links that I tried were blocked and redirected to the police's information page.
- wheany, on 02/13/2008, -1/+2The list has been aggregated by scanning links form porn pages automatically and adding them to the list if the link is redirected to the police's information page.
- lekahe, on 02/13/2008, -1/+1The press release has a link to the website and I can access it via Sonera and Nikki has links to the list. I am not favouring censorship, but publishing lists like that is irresponsible.
- fuliginosus, on 02/12/2008, -1/+6Publishing that list is the only way to show how faulty it is. There is complete Japanese ISP censored with over 6000 different user pages (according to Google site: search) and only a small fraction (if any) of those have anything illegal on them. Lots of censored sites contain only legal porn. Majority of sites on the blacklist are located in the USA or Europe and IF those servers are used to host something illegal, police should take them down and arrest offenders, not just put them on the blacklist and close their eyes.
- lekahe, on 02/13/2008, -4/+1The Finnish police can't actually go and arrest foreign offenders. The Finnish ones they have when they show up. They are co-operating with other countries but what else can the Finnish police do meanwhile? Ban the sites!
- p1ru, on 02/13/2008, -0/+1@lekahe
http://www.kasvi.org/index.php?4154
http://pjarvinen.blogspot.com/2008/02/poliisin-ver ...
Mr Kasvi, member of finnish parliament is promoting child porn, you say?
Oh, and Mr Järvinen, too: "Kävin testaamassa muutamia Nikin listalla mainittuja osoitteita. Mikään niistä ei ainakaan nopealla vilkaisulla sisältänyt sellaista aineistoa, jonka itse luokittelisin lapsipornoksi."
"I am Finnish so I should not get access to the pages"
You obviously should call your ISP (service provider) and complain that you must have the censorship ASAP. While at it, get filter for digg.com and hs.fi, too.
- p1ru, on 02/12/2008, -0/+41. EFFI is not publishing anything, expect their press release.
- lekahe, on 02/13/2008, -4/+1According to http://blogit.tietokone.fi/tietojakoneesta/?p=324 (Finnish), the first comment : according to Nikki more than a half is not porn links. So what! If there is one link to a child porn page, Nikki should be arrested!
The discussion on Tietokone is continuing...- ohplzstfu, on 02/13/2008, -1/+2Snap out of your hypocrit daydream and try to understand what's behind all this. It's not about some borderline "child" porn pictures, it's about users being censored. Blocking those pages will not do anything to stop the child pornography. They are not child pornography pages, they are galleries with FEW questionable pictures used. Those pictures are ones being used in FBI honeypot sites anyway and most likely a good portion of those pages are just those. Method being used to block the pages is not efficient and again, it will not stop one from accessing any of those sites. The child pornography is not on public web-pages. Lekahe, you are being censored for the wrong reasons and you seem to love every minute of it.
- lekahe, on 02/13/2008, -3/+2I am against all censorship. I submitted the story about Finnish stupid effort to ban poker playing.
I am Finnish, so I am not banning anything else but CHILD porn because it is illegal!
And I really am not enjoying this. You can't even imagine how sad I am because people are so stupis that publish lists like that in the name of a good cause!
Over the few weeks I have seen totally good content being buried here.
I think Nikki is no better than terrorists who want to change the system by harming other people on the way!
- lekahe, on 02/13/2008, -3/+2I am against all censorship. I submitted the story about Finnish stupid effort to ban poker playing.
- BuGi2, on 02/13/2008, -0/+2So you think linking to illegal material should be illegal too? By that logic, Google should be censored as well. And yes, childporn is illegal, but the correct way to deal with it is to take the site down completely, not sweeping it away. The people who want to find that stuff, will find it regardless of censorship. The filter is easy to bypass in under one minute ( www.opendns.com ), as I've already done. So the censorship is ineffective and useless. only thing it currently does is makes people think that childporn is dealt with and censors a political site critical to censorship. Meaning that most of the people can't get to it as they don't know how to bypass the filter, or doesn't want to. This gets us to the point where people can't find all the available information and that's the reason why _EVERY_ form of censorship should be disabled.
You said: "I am against all censorship." Clearly that's not the case as immediately after you note "I am not banning anything else but CHILD porn".
On the 12 years I've used the intarwebs, I haven't come accross a single piece of child porn, so I'd say the whole idea of censoring it so you can't find it by accident is flawed too.
- ohplzstfu, on 02/13/2008, -1/+2Snap out of your hypocrit daydream and try to understand what's behind all this. It's not about some borderline "child" porn pictures, it's about users being censored. Blocking those pages will not do anything to stop the child pornography. They are not child pornography pages, they are galleries with FEW questionable pictures used. Those pictures are ones being used in FBI honeypot sites anyway and most likely a good portion of those pages are just those. Method being used to block the pages is not efficient and again, it will not stop one from accessing any of those sites. The child pornography is not on public web-pages. Lekahe, you are being censored for the wrong reasons and you seem to love every minute of it.
- jarkkop, on 02/13/2008, -0/+5Censorship like this is never going to work. There are simply too many problems with the method they are using, in addition to the fact that it's completely useless.
- qwuinc, on 02/19/2008, -0/+1Not to mention the motivation for enacting it was not to help the children. In fact, if this kind of list worked, it would just give a nice image of the police doing something, while in fact they are just hiding the problems.
Oh well, I guess EFFI and other people warned it would be abused really soon, but I guess people don't believe it before they see it with their own eyes.
- qwuinc, on 02/19/2008, -0/+1Not to mention the motivation for enacting it was not to help the children. In fact, if this kind of list worked, it would just give a nice image of the police doing something, while in fact they are just hiding the problems.
- dada0, on 02/13/2008, -0/+1It's a tough dilemma. We know there are sites containing child porn, but we can't very easily do something against them, since they are hosted in other countries. So the only way to effectively get rid of them is to block them. The question is whether this is useful at all. Even when blocking such sites, it's still possible to obtain this kind of material some other way. The web isn't just HTTP, after all. It's likely that removing access to all of these websites will result in only a trivial portion of the actual material being blocked.
- wheany, on 02/13/2008, -1/+3If only there was some kind of INTERnational criminal POLice organization...
- ohplzstfu, on 02/13/2008, -0/+3Pfft. A great majority of those pages are on servers that are located in US or EU area. Why aren't they taking any actions? Because now that this sercret filterlist is succesfully implemented, in few years government can block whatever they wish thru it. Babysteps straight into 1984.
Now lekahe, you might want to think about the kids in those pictures you so eagerly want to censor. Those pictures are already taken most likely years ago. Does the pictures on those sites somehow increase their sufferings? Putting them away from your sight is not the way to deal with the problem. Rather identify the kids, search and help them. - Whigu, on 02/14/2008, -0/+3fuliginosus wrote "Publishing that list is the only way to show how faulty it is" that so true.
Funny enough Digg just removed my digg link ( http://digg.com/political_opinion/The_Finnish_Inte ... ) to that list...
Is digg supporting censorship again? (We all remember 09-F9-11-02-9D... ) - Sikakoira, on 02/21/2008, -0/+1Here's a link to analysis on the contents of the blocklist in english: http://maraz.kapsi.fi/sisalto-en.html
There seem to be total of 9 clearly illegal sites in the list of 1047 sites, and 28 sites that are hard to decide, whether they're legal or not. 46 pages on the list are child modeling pages that do not contain nude children or sexually explicit content. Such content is legal, though suspect. All in all, 888 pages on the list contain no illegal material. The reason for censoring most of those pages would probably be that "they contain sick *****", and won't be missed by majority of people, but that just isn't a legal reason for censorship.
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