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Zune Marketplace's Absurd Pricing Scheme

applematters.com — Plenty of people have credit cards and they understand the concept of purchasing items with them. So, how, you ask, could Microsoft screw this up? No, first you might ask, what is there to screw up? I mean, the system already works. All you need your customer to do is show up with a credit card? Right? Wrong!

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  • koregaonpark, on 10/12/2007, -9/+70$5 = 400 points
    $15 = 1200 points
    $25 = 2000 points
    $50 = 4000 points

    If
    $5 = 400 points
    then
    $1 = 80 points
    therefore
    100 cents = 80 points
    meaning
    1 cent = .8 points
    or
    1 point = 1.25 cents

    LOL
    • TheWriteGuy, on 10/12/2007, -10/+47...PROFIT!
    • Trention, on 10/12/2007, -51/+24It doesn't seem all that absurd to me, it's the same system Nintendo is using for the virtual console, Micorsoft is using it for Xbox Live. Doesn't seem that hard to do the math to me, but to each their own.
    • noliberalbull, on 10/12/2007, -3/+50yes, but at least with nintendo's system 1point=1 cent, 100 points=$1... much easier
    • JnOrris, on 10/12/2007, -10/+24yea but we have that common thing called our national currency which most people so far have gotten used to. But apparently that whole money thing is too confusing for M$.
    • oxyrubber, on 10/12/2007, -8/+27I refuse to buy into a middle-currency scheme.

      MS makes a little more money by not having to run CC transactions of less than $3 by letting you "buy in bulk", but they don't pass any of the savings off to you.

      Also, how do you know that they won't make songs more expensive (in terms of points) later on, after you have already exchanced your Dollars for points. Dave and Busters inflates their ticket currency all the time. Why couldn't MS do the same with Zune? If I buy points, I'm using them immediately before any inflation can happen.
    • vandread, on 10/12/2007, -55/+22ok I've got a few points for the idiots out there.

      1) The point system is what allows Microsoft to bring multiple platforms together to have content distributed through one system. Its cheaper to run one system than 10 different ones. So it makes sense for Microsoft to do this.

      2) Microsoft is a company. They exist to make money. It makes sense for a business to do this.

      3) No one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to spend $5 for 400 zune points, if you don't like it, don't buy a zune.

      Problem Solved, now STFU and stop complaining since most of you, which are already iPod users, aren't going to be buying a zune anyway.
    • swicklund, on 10/12/2007, -5/+32vandread - said: 1) The point system is what allows Microsoft to bring multiple platforms together to have content distributed through one system. Its cheaper to run one system than 10 different ones. So it makes sense for Microsoft to do this.

      The point is not to make it easy on Microsoft's programmers, it should be easy for the CONSUMER
    • ZeroMP, on 10/12/2007, -3/+26This point system pisses me off to no end. If companies like MS don't want to run through $1.00 credit card transactions and get burned on them - then they can still make you "buy in bulk" you just don't convert it to meaningless "points".

      Tell them: The song is $.99 - but the least you can purchase/deposit is: $5.00
      Then leave the remaining $4.01 as DOLLARS and CENTS.

      The point system is ridiculous and unnecessary.
    • Qwfwq, on 10/12/2007, -7/+14Could this have anything to do with the out-of-USA markets?
      All markets would have the songs priced the same in points, with different conversion rates then between the points and local currency - don't know if this makes any sense. Also I notice that with the current currency rates 1 point should be roughly 1 euro.
    • Quix, on 10/12/2007, -6/+34Shhh, keep the Zune criticism to a whisper, folks. You're going to wake up flag564. And you know how upset he gets when he sees Zune criticism. He goes flippin' nutso!

      (whisper) $1 = 79 points? That's just MSIdiotic. Good luck with the Zune scam, Redmond. This will win consumers away from the "evil iPod" how exactly? Ah, the old "dazzle them with confusion" ploy. Genius! (/whisper)

    • Coded1, on 10/12/2007, -10/+1I do see how the corporates out there say "well if they say its right and you believe it then capitalism at its finest!", well that is true isn't it? On the same hand lets take a look at the person who just got a Zune who has heard of iTunes et al and the going rates. Well Marketplace can sell a tune for 100 credits which would work out $1.25USD. Is this wrong? No! Should we be able to discuss it and clarify it amongst ourselves? Yes!

      Maybe the user is too lazy or doesn't have the skills required to make the distinction between the two services, the Zune pricing strategy is just an abstraction layer that will allow the Marketplace to take advantage of it. How do we know the value of this currency will not change? How do we know the sticker prices of the media will not change accordingly to the value of the currency? All of this makes sence doesn't it?

      All I am saying is that talking about it does not harm the corporate world, it merely balances it. If you want to buy something then likely little will stop you from taking out your wallet. It is as simple as supply and demand, if the talk going on curbs your demand then it is up to the business to adjust to make your demand higher. This is called the product evolution, it is not negative and will continue as long as the market exists.
    • uptown, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14They're doing it to make it appear that you're spending less than you really are unless you actually do the math. 80 points = $1 ... but a lot of people will think that it's more like 80 cents ... so the psychological impact will be that they're spending less. It's the one and only reason they're doing this.
    • rasterbator, on 10/12/2007, -9/+2Mi¢ro$oft XBOX360 and Zune should switch to Lindens.
    • cypherz, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11@vandread
      "1) The point system is what allows Microsoft to bring multiple platforms together to have content distributed through one system. Its cheaper to run one system than 10 different ones. So it makes sense for Microsoft to do this."

      You are clearly not a programmer. The points system doesn't have anything to do with multiple platforms. Converting multiple foreign currencies to a base currency is trivial and get this: THEY HAVE TO DO IT ANYWAY. Accountants don't work with "points."

      The posters who point out that the points system's purpose is to cut down on cc transactions and force users to buy in bulk are likely correct. Further it allows MS to obscure and manipulate the costs of songs purchased.
    • 23r17i05o42n, on 10/12/2007, -11/+10Flush this brown turd brick.
    • adragons, on 10/12/2007, -3/+0@uptown I think you are right. There is a psychological reasoning behind this. No doubtedly, many people will feel that having 80 'points' *feels* like having more to spend, than when you have $1.
    • Ninjab3ar, on 10/12/2007, -6/+5why does this point system matter?

      im still going to pirate my songs....
    • jrbrewin, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4the reason they're using it is because of xbox360, it's the same points system there, and it's worked there for true micro-transactions. Therefore it's a proven way of getting consumers to buy things.

      okay, technical / socially, it allows microsoft to cut down the credit card companys cut on every transaction. Additionally, it allows parents to hand out points on, for example, a weekly / monthly basis, instead of handing over credit card details. But that's it.

      granted, the way the points tally up to $ is silly. but, i for one think a unified internet currency wouldn't go a miss, and having used it on x360 i can honestly say i like it and thought it was a logical step.
    • flag564, on 10/12/2007, -21/+2"Shhh, keep the Zune criticism to a whisper, folks. You're going to wake up flag564. And you know how upset he gets when he sees Zune criticism. He goes flippin' nutso!"

      Dude, grow up.

      Im the only thing keeping your sorry comments from being deep into negative territory. Your piggyback trolling comments are only worth the praise of equally childish fanboys.

      I could care less if you want to use the pricing scheme. I dont buy music from online stores, so no big thing to me.
    • dvdmon, on 10/12/2007, -7/+6Gee, you don't think the guy with the blog called "Apple Matters" is biased, do you? This guy seems to think that MS is the devil and is out to "rape" as he says all of its customers. Some of these Mac fanboys get so emotionally involved with their choice of platform that competing platforms need to be seen as the arch villain. Look, all companies, Apple included, are out to make money. Yes, having an unnecessary layer is dumb, but it's not fatal as this guy seems to think it is. Most people can use a calculator and figure out how much a given song or album will be costing them if they can't figure it out in their head. That's the thing about PC people, we don't need everything dumbed down for us. Just kidding! The underlying problem with both this store AND with Apple's, is that they sell DRM-crippled music, and sell it to people for about the same price as they would pay for a CD at the store. Unfortunately, most people don't care, mainly because they're uninformed, and would rather have instant gratification rather than having to wait or even go somewhere to get their music.
    • Petrarch1603, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8all your points are belong to microsoft
    • totorototoro, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@Quix,
      now look what you did! ;)
    • DelMonte, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6flag564 said: "Dude, grow up."

      Two hours later, in another digg thread, flag564 posted this wonderfully mature comment: "And the Astrosmash/Quix ambiguously gay ipod duo checks in."

      Who needs to grow up here?

    • vandread, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1@All you ***** that can't understand my post

      I'm not talking about the marketplace accepting different currencies you ***** but selling different products for different points. Would you be happier if they went 1 US dollar for 1 point? Then the US will be 1 for 1 while the rest of the world will be different too?

      They are selling products for points, right now its music, later it might be video, games, other media etc. For a company it makes business sense to make money. So if you don't like it, tough. They are in business to make money, not bend over and give the customer what they want. If they gave the customer what they wanted then Windows wouldn't be crap.
  • blueskydiver76, on 10/12/2007, -16/+24This is recockulous. Do the people that use this scheme (xbox or zunies) realize that they are gonna get facked somehow in the end (no pun intended). MS is gonna have billions of these points sitting around doing nothing for the customer. MS is laughing all the way to the bank. This isn't DRM or anything even "Convenient", instead its give me your money...ill collect interest on it and keep the interest for myself. Very smart on MS part. I won't be falling for it. I prefer to buy my music where i want to, listen to it on what I want to and not have to convert my money into something that I can't get back easily.
    • estvir, on 10/12/2007, -72/+10'recockulous'

      And you managed to turn on your computer how ?

      There's also benefits to the Points system like in relation to credit card charges, etc but it's more fun to ignorantly bash things.
    • Civil44, on 10/12/2007, -3/+25estvir - He woke up with a sense of humor. Something you seem to lack.
    • fallenone05, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18@estvir
      there are benefits...if you are a Microsoft shareholder
    • sidebuster, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6I think Microsoft isn't stopping with the 360 and Zune. Vista will more than likely have some kind of download service (games, movies, music) that uses the same points.

      In the end there will probably be more than 2 things using these marketplace points.
    • plbland, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11Part of me thinks the idea of a global currency is actually quite clever, so no matter what country/region Microsoft is advertising/selling the price will always be the 'same'.

      In reality, currency exchange is a pain in the ass!
    • Namco, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8estvir, you obviously aren't a Love Line listener or don't know who Adam Corrola is
    • DaffyDuck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12Microsoft is going to be investing the money they are borrowing from you with no interest. They are going to be making money from the money left over after you buy a song or two.
    • KayIslandDrunk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0allofmp3.com does the same thing with charging in bulk and it seems to work for them
  • Stepbasin, on 10/12/2007, -7/+18@ estvir

    Benefits? Oh, please share. What are the amazing benefits?
    • greatblackowl, on 10/12/2007, -7/+17I'm not completely familiar with the Zune Marketplace stuff, but I believe that the same points can be used to buy Zune music as XBox Live stuff (over their internet service or something). I do still agree that it would be better to just use real money, but at least the two microsoft services' money plans are interoperable.
    • keithmcbride, on 10/12/2007, -16/+6while everyone is eager to complain about this...

      there are minimum charge limits to credit cards. so if you go to download one song for $1 or whatever, they can't make a single charge for that amount. they charge you for a few hundred points.

      and as someone stated, it makes it very simple to do worldwide. not everyone uses the dollar. there is a set exchange rate for yen->points, dollar->points, euro->points, etc.

      microsoft has the xbox in like 26 countries.

      as many liberal people as there are on digg right now, i feel like there would be some less ethnocentric comments
    • Odweaver, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11@keithmcbride

      Zune is US only so making it easier on a global level won't do jack *****.
    • superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -2/+23Apple does a single charge if all you buy is one song.

      They just wait a day or so in case you make other purchases, then bundle them.

      Credit card companies can pretty easily handle charges in the amount of a dollar now.

      What I really don't like about the Microsoft system is that it misleads consumers by having points that are worth ALMOST as much as a penny. So people naturally tend to think 1 point equals one penny, and Microsoft makes bank on the confusion (and on the amounts you can't spend because the multiples you buy are not equal to the multiples you can spend on anything).

      Microsoft's point system is, like the lottery, a tax on those bad at math.
    • DaffyDuck, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1Keith, see http://www.glenbrook.com/opinions/apple-itunes.html
    • cleverboy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11@keithmcbride:"as many liberal people as there are on digg right now, i feel like there would be some less ethnocentric comments"

      Wow. That's a stretch. Let's ignore the misplaced "ethno" comment and cut right to the heart of the matter. iTunes is in many many countries... and it deals in "money". That's all. I guess that was shorter than I thought. Sorry, your point isn't good enough.

      Moreover... with this "CuRrency Abstraction Protocol" Microsoft has instituted, suddenly people are unable to know what something *really* costs immediately... in the comfort of their OWN HOMES! It's like living on the border to a foreign country. Will points cost the same or different in other countries? Are points transferable? How much of your points is Microsoft sitting on? Honestly, its MORE messy for this to be the case. ALSO, please note... fast food restaurants have special deals with credit card companies for this very reason. High purchase rates, and low fraud. That's a combination that will bring credit card companies to the table. It would appear that Microsoft didn't have the base of pre-existing users to promise anything like that (like Apple did with the iPods), but even still.
    • ZeroMP, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11"... but at least the two microsoft services' money plans are interoperable."

      And dollars aren't?
    • keithmcbride, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1I somehow doubt that many of you who are outraged by this have an Xbox 360, and thus have no experience with these points. And I also doubt many of you are buying a Zune.

      The points on the 360 are almost ALWAYS in even multiples (200,400,800)

      If you like iTunes so much, then stop complaining about Zune and stick with it. I have an ipod, and I have little interest in Zune. I just feel like the number of comments about this pricing scheme is ridiculous considering its been in place on the 360 for almost an entire year already. Its not news.

      And just because its US-only right now doesn't mean they don't want to possibly expand later. Why would you expect MS to ever say they only target the US?
    • cleverboy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@keith: "If you like iTunes so much, then stop complaining about Zune and stick with it."

      I'm sorry, is this about LIKING iTunes, or being dissappointed that Microsoft is continuing such an harmful approach for consumers?

      Keith, I've been talking with someone about the fact that XBOX live uses the same "point" type system. He shrugged like most people. He loves his XBOX, and he's never purchased anything from Live. Also it's less threatening, because many people out there are FAR more likely to purchase media (music/video), than "games". This is the simple truth. If LIVE requires the same deposit amounts for buying video downloads, I'm sure people will have the same hesitation, and should. Microsoft didn't ship with podcast support. Care to wonder why? It's no big secret if you think about it. Also, Microsoft will offer its "rental" paradigm, but will discourage it over single-track purchases.

      Who is the last publisher that you know that has sold 1 billion digital downloads of their game stock? As such, you're hitting people more where they live by utilizing this "float" paradigm. Why do I care? Do you have to ask? Microsoft's history is in removing "choice", in order to promote its products. If you think IE dominates the browser market because it was the "better browser", you're very wrong. If Microsoft positions Zune in such a way that people don't realize they have a "choice" in the market (bundling/OEM), people will immediately... be "trapped" in their ecosystem. --Not simply by DRM (which, like Apple's, could be circumvented) but by having their money trapped in a system in an irremovable fashion.

      No matter what they buy, the $5 increment will always manage to keep their money in part, encouraging them to come back. I don't want to be the first one to explain to a friend that they'll always have a Zune balance, unless they make a one-time purchase in excess of $400, to the nearest multiple. I'm sorry, that's worth complaining about. Sometimes complaints make a difference, at the very least, serve the important purpose of raising awareness, BEFORE someone makes an poorly-planned "first step" to try something.

      I'll champion more open systems like those implemented by the existing competition (re: not JUST iTunes), than this "point" system anyday. Your "lay down and take it" attitude is disturbing. "Why are you complaining??? Sigh!" Eh.
  • maninblac1, on 10/12/2007, -40/+12Frankly, i think the idea if completely genius.

    Who gives a ***** about some whiney person who says you're taking my money in advance. Holy crap, even the bank does that. If you go and deposite $10,000 at your local bank today, then go back tomorrow and try to pull that $10,000 out, you'll get a big whopping no. Most banks say there is a 48-72 hours turn around time, no one complains about them holding your money and you can't get it back till later.

    Cry me a god damn river, then promptly drown in it.

    I tip my hat to the execs who put this scheme together, because no one is going to notice...and no one is going to care.
    • fallenone05, on 10/12/2007, -13/+6allow me to take your hat and stomp it a couple of times and then take a crap on it.
      ok, now you can tip your hat and put it back on, biatch.
    • altjeringa, on 10/12/2007, -2/+20Here is the deal. You will always have at minimum a few cents balance in your Zune account, it's almost impossible not to, though the chances are pretty good that at any given point you'll have at least a few dollars there. Multiply that by hundreds of thousands of users and Microsoft is making a pretty buck on the "Float."

      Banks hold a check for 48 - 72 hours if it's from another bank. If it's cash it's available immediately and usually the same if it's a check from another bank. This is because it takes that long to transfer the money from another bank to your bank.

      Banks pay interest on the money you given them to hold for you.

      So yes this is genius, if you are Microsoft. The money may not seem like alot to a single user, 5 dollars here 2 cents there, but it's a bankfull for M$. On the other hand it is... well... underhanded, unneccesary, and makes things more complicated for the user. Which is what you should expect when dealing with M$. So if you bought a Zune... you got what you deserved.
    • oxyrubber, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7"no one is going to notice...and no one is going to care."
      And no one is going to buy into the Zune. -- Actually I doubt no one will, but Apple has the marketshare to dominate the field for at least a little while.

      Personally, there is no freaking way I am going to re-buy my music collection (puchased through iTunes), purchase a Zune (the purchase price of which, according to the CEO of Universal Music, contains a kick-back to the music industry), and then start buying music from the Zune store with Zune Points encrypted with MS's version of FairPlay and encoded in WMV.

      Oh hell I don't care. I just want to be able to remove the DRM and pass the songs onto my Linux box so I can listen at work. AAC is only slightly better than WMV for similar bitrates, but MP3 is the most compatible with all music-playing devices (including my car deck).
    • oxyrubber, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5And furthermore, you're an idiot.

      "Who gives a ***** about some whiney person who says you're taking my money in advance."
      These "whiney person"s are the CUSTOMERS. You know - those people who make or break a product and, by extension, a company.

      "Holy crap, even the bank does that. If you go and deposite $10,000 at your local bank today, then go back tomorrow and try to pull that $10,000 out, you'll get a big whopping no. Most banks say there is a 48-72 hours turn around time"
      Banks are heavily governed. Banks, Savings&Loans, and Credit Unions all give interest (with most accounts). $10,000 is a magic number because that is the threshold where the FBI gets to know about the transaction (which causes delays). $9,980 should take no longer than a few hours (banks are required to keep 10% or 20% of all semi-liquid investments on the premesis.

      "no one complains about them holding your money and you can't get it back till later."
      The banking system is long established (400+ years) and in the US, the FDIC insures bank accounts up to $100,000... so people know their money will still be there. Microsoft could very well sell off the Zune brand or the Zune Points "banking" system and then be insured by some small company. There is no gurantee that MS will be around forever... which makes the currency less stable.

      Inflation is the big problem. There is no written contract you sign when you exchange money for points that says "all songs will be XX points in cost". It's probably not a dealbreaker for most people, but having MS fanboys as dumb as you is just as much of a deterrant.
    • AngryBoy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Going along with altjeringa's comment...

      Another scary thing about these "point" systems or even gift cards in general is that these businesses are not banks. Ever heard of FDIC? The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation is insurance by the government that up to $100,000 of money you keep in the bank will be paid back to you if the bank is unable to pay you.

      Microsoft is not FDIC insured. With all the money Microsoft has, I realize it's highly unlikely they wouldn't be able to pay you back... but if for some reason Microsoft went belly up and declared bankruptcy, you would be *****. All of your points you have with Microsoft would be gone and there wouldn't be a damn thing you could do to get them back.
  • Stepbasin, on 10/12/2007, -10/+27@manibblac1

    Ok, I am a bit confused. Are you comparing Microsoft to a BANK?

    . . .

    Um, what?

    No, you see, Microsoft is a software company. They sell software. A bank is a financial institution. And it should be noted that when they hold my money, I earn interest on it.

    Oh, and before you make another ridiculous comment, Microsoft isn't a restaurant either (and so we don't leave tips).

    But thanks for making me smile this morning.
    • Garage81, on 10/12/2007, -25/+14why can't you just hit the reply button like a normal human? why do you have to make your own comment and put "@manibblac1" at the top. JUST REPLY TO HIS COMMENT.

      /rant
    • superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7@Garage81: That is more probably Digg accidentally not attaching his comment to the correct thread.

      The whole "@user" convention arose because you want to reply to a sub-thread but you can only reply to the primary poster and otherwise it can get confusing which response you are in turn responding to.
    • succubuskiller, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2Actually Microsoft has enough cash on hand to be a bank...

      They are not taking your money by gunpoint. People say that Zune is US only.. yes right now but I think they would consider to go Global sometime? Also Microsoft signed with UMG stating for every Zune sold they would get a $1+ which would supposedly be split with the artists. Hmm, artists probably like that idea as well as the music companies.

      I hold my judgment against saying crap until I physically use it myself, let alone an Apple fanboy site which may contain just a little bit of bias.
  • iwa87, on 10/12/2007, -2/+31So basically, we give Microsoft money, and they in return give us points. But we may not use all that points, or if they are any left over points, it might not be sufficient enough to buy another song, but Microsoft gets every 'valuable' penny from that cash-to-points conversion. Our left over points worth nothing (unless we top up even more points). That isn't fair, now is it?
    • bacon_skoda, on 10/12/2007, -6/+7it's fair because everyone loves MS Marketplace.
      you can't live without it. it's like air. therefore, it's justified.
    • halik, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10That's pretty much the idea... nice try by msft to help themselves to all the change that's left over from purchases.
    • TheWriteGuy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15It's similar to having to buy "coupons" or "tickets" in order to ride the rides or play the midway games at a carnival. And it feels just as scammy on your wallet.
    • mt066, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8I think it's prety convienient that the denominations you can purchase do not coincide with the cost of the songs, so there will always be some left over points.
    • totorototoro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6@mt066,

      Convenient for Microsoft, you mean?
    • bacon_skoda, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3imagine the cost of keeping track of 3pts forever.
      then realize zune will last 1 year.
    • venicerocco, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1AAAAnnnnd... They're not even selling you anything tangible. It's just a copy of a file. An exact duplicate. Nothing physical. Not only are they stealing your money, but they're selling you [basically] air! How much does it cost to manufacture an MP3 file I wonder?

  • chris9902, on 10/12/2007, -14/+14"4. Scratch your head as you try to figure out why you need to buy “points” to buy songs. Why can’t you just use standard American currency? Doesn’t Microsoft accept the Dollar anymore? "

    1) so you can use them on your Xbox to buy movies and DLC.
    2) it costs money for every credit card transaction so buying in bulk cuts costs.
    • monkeyrun, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Most if not all Credit card companies charges a flat rate for any transaction.

      It doesn't really matter to them if you give him five $1 or one $5.
    • absaroke, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3Credit card transactions are actually NOT a flat rate. Merchants typically pay a transaction fee (the flat part) and points on the total $ amount of the transaction. Micro$oft has probably negotiated a pretty good deal on both, but it is unlikely that they are only paying one or the other. Flat tran fees are usually made up of a couple cents per transaction plus a fee for AVS check. And then they pay a % and that is called "basis points." 185 basis points means the merchant will pay to his/her acquiring bank 1.85% of the total purchase cost.
    • slowelectron, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9iTMS will gladly transact a one song purchase ($0.99) on my credit card.
    • superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9But if you must ALSO buy points in odd multiples for renting 360 movies, then you still have points left over - all the time.

      Furthermore, does it make sense that in order for the economics of owning a Zune to work you must also own a 360? I guess it does to Microsoft... and people complain about Apple trying to lock users in! Microsoft is trying to make you buy all Microsoft devices so you'll have more use for those 14 points left in your account.

    • ZeroMP, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Hey jerkoff you can still buy in bulk and not make up a silly point system.

      Just call them dollars and not points so people can instantly see how much they are spending on things. It's not that difficult of a concept.

      1) Points are not necessary on Xbox Live
      2) Points are not necessary on Zune

      How can people be using the fact that they are the SAME points both places as an argument for their existence? Use dollars, the last time I checked that was still the unit of currency here in the US.
    • monkeyrun, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1@absaroke

      Do you know the difference between "Flat RATE" and "Flat FEE" ??
    • ElectricGrandpa, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"Most if not all Credit card companies charges a flat rate for any transaction.

      It doesn't really matter to them if you give him five $1 or one $5."

      You're an idiot. It does matter, because if you do one $5 transaction, then you get 4 songs out of it, and they have to pay ONE fee. If you do 4 seperate purchases, then they have to pay 4 fees. Get it?
    • monkeyrun, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Please go to school. I am not going to teach math here.
  • Brereton55, on 10/12/2007, -17/+19i love the website this is on.... totally unbiased
    • WinterSolstice, on 10/12/2007, -4/+22Biased yes - but not wrong in this regard.

      I thought the same thing with my Xbox points. I bought them, but I can't do anything with them (the remainder, anyhow), and I can't get them back.

      It'd be like purchasing $1.50 in iTunes song credits... that's one song, and Apple keeping the rest.

      -WS
    • gotamd, on 10/12/2007, -9/+3But iTunes/Apple is not completely innocent of this themselves. What do you think iTunes gift cards are? They come in amounts like $25. So, how many $0.99 does that buy? 25...and Apple gets to keep the $0.25 left over (unless you buy more). Why doesn't Apple just sell you a $24.75 gift card?
    • MacParrot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1gotamd,
      The difference is that you don't HAVE to buy an iTunes music card to buy content on iTunes. Can you buy content for the Zune from Microsoft without using points?
  • carapi, on 10/12/2007, -24/+14Gee...Applematters.com being afraid of the Zune. How weird.
    • igraham09, on 10/12/2007, -13/+2wrong post, bury promptly
    • superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1You misspelled "scorn".
    • Quix, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8@ carapi: you confuse "being afraid of" with "being amused by."

      I love how all the diehard Microsoft apologists equate criticism of the Zune with fear.

      This stupid "purchase with points with no logical equivalent value" shows just how out of touch Microsoft is with the home consumer. They always have been, they always will be. MS simply can't bulldoze its way into the consumer space with the power of its OS/Office monopoly, but they still operate with the misguided mentality that they can.

      "The Freedom to Innovate" indeed.

      Nothing to fear here.
  • totorototoro, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8Hope these "MS Points" don't turn out to be like "Flooz" ;)
  • isewise, on 10/12/2007, -11/+12Well this pretty much kills the Zune.
  • TheToecutter, on 10/12/2007, -15/+5Buried as biased. IMHO.
    • igraham09, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3it's not like you're not getting the facts; because you are... you're just getting them with some MS-bashing goodness added in

      besides, reading "just the facts" is boring as hell...

      and... it's going to be biased either way; against or for MS

      and and... did you really expect to read something completely unbiased and opinionless?
  • derning, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13Same idea as buying tokens at the arcade.

    However, if MSFT's main goal here is to drive the Zune's MARKETSHARE to catch Apple's iPod, then Zune Points are a pretty dumb move. It is an attempt to lock users into MSFT's "points" system. But won't this discourage many from using the Zune Marketplace in the first place? Isn't that a dumb thing to do, especially this early in the Zune's infancy?
    • bacon_skoda, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2this way, they can say a song is 99 points. so it's just like iTunes.
      "the water's fine, jump in!!"
    • superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5In an arcade, if I buy a token I can generally find SOMETHING that takes one token.

      It's more like an arcade that you can buy tokens in groups of four, but each game takes three tokens.

      Granted towards the end of the arcade, there were some where almost any game of worth was two tokens - but still...
  • woody56292, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9I can do math and I have a 360 so this isn't a problem for me. but I do agree that is should be 1 point = 1 cent. but they can't do that now.
    • Subliminalbits, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Sure they can. They control the bank balances and so they just adjust everyone's balance uniformly at the same time to bring Marketplace points into line with real currency.
    • phidong, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1Subliminalbits,
      The Zune Microsoft points work on the Xbox Live marketplace as well, so it's not as simple as just adjusting everyone's balance. I actually don't really see what the big negative with the Microsoft points is. The main difference I see between MS points and something like Apple gift cards is that I've seen the Microsoft points on sale before, in fact I've purchased 1600 points for ~14 dollars a couple times.

      If purchasing Microsoft points for the Zune is as horrible as you all make it out to be, I can't wait for retailers to start discounting their Zune cards because no one is buying them. :D
    • jdb8167, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3While Apple is silghtly guilty of the same thing with gift cards, there is a world of difference. If you have say $0.79 left on a card and you buy something for $0.99, you only get charged $0.20 on your credit card. With Microsoft's system, to use that left over $0.79 you have to go out and buy another $5.00 of points so you probably will never get to $0.00 on your account.

      So, Apple sells cards that are not in an even multiple of $0.99 but you can get that card's balance to $0.00 easily. Big difference.
    • cleverboy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@jdb8167: "While Apple is silghtly guilty of the same thing with gift cards, there is a world of difference. If you have say $0.79 left on a card and you buy something for $0.99, you only get charged $0.20 on your credit card."

      Don't be silly... everyone knows what a gift card is. The point is, with gift cards, you can pay the difference in cash, and your OUT. With Microsoft's marketplace "points", you'll *never* be able to remove the balance without some math and a heavy expenditure. Not simply a "big" difference, its incomparable. It's upsetting to me, because its clearly a "scheme", and the idea of Microsoft gaming people who honestly want an alternative to the iPod, is disgusting.
  • raid517, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10So they get to take your money and do what they want with it until you decide to spend it?

    You know an idea like that probably sounds like good business sense - but I think consumers are going to hate it.
  • gxcdesign, on 10/12/2007, -5/+13This already spells the doom for the Zune
    • flag564, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1Just like 10,000 other foolish things you pulled out of your arse to try to make the same point. This one just as dumb as the others.
  • Morphinity, on 10/12/2007, -15/+5Got bias? This article is anti-Zune from the first sentence. And it just gets worse. I don't like the Zune, but how can this article be accepted? Also:
    "So, let me explain why this is important. If Microsoft prices a song at 79 “Zune Points” is it cheaper than a 99 cent song from Apple? I don’t know, lets do the math.

    79 points * (1.25 cents/1 point) = 98.75 cents (or approximately 99 cents)

    So the answer is 'no, the MS song isn’t cheaper, it is the same price as Apple’s'."
    Who cares if it's the same price? If there was a way to get cheaper music the whole world would be all over it. No one ever said that the Zune Marketplace was cheaper.
    • igraham09, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4as stated in my above comment:

      it's not like you're not getting the facts; because you are... you're just getting them with some MS-bashing goodness added in

      besides, reading "just the facts" is boring as hell...

      and... it's going to be biased either way; against or for MS

      and and... did you really expect to read something completely unbiased and opinionless?
  • AdmJollyRoger, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9It's pretty much what Di$ney does where you have to buy "Disney Dollars" up front because nobody in Disney Land takes anything but Disney Dollars. So, you buy 300 Disney Dollars to use all day long and at the end of the day if you only used 250 then guess what? You just wasted 50 dollars. All you can do is keep walking around the park and try to blow your last 50 Disney Dollars, because they certainly won't give you your money back.

    So no, MS is not really being all that imaginative here--they just stole the idea from anther equally greedy megacorporation.
    • Kev585, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4That's not a great analogy given 1 Disney Dollar (DD) was equal to one conventional dollar (USD, etc). They problem here is Microsoft will make you buy at least 5 dollars worth of points and charge an uneven amount of points for songs (Much like what they do on X Box Live Marketplace with content).
    • superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5That is totally incorrect - though they sell Disney Dollars, there is not one place in Disney World or Disneyland that does not ALSO take cash directly. They sell them for fun and also on the theory people will not spend a few and hold some back as keepsakes (letting Disney keep the money), but you are under no obligation to get them.

      I go around once a year, and have been to every part of Disneyworld multiple times.
    • RidesAPaleHorse, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I go to Disneyland several times a year and I've never had anybody require that I pay in Disney Dollars. Do they even have those anymore?
  • Kurto2021, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1why can't they do that now? They can just take your points and convert them over to cash and increase the number of points you have.
  • charliebf5, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3It's just like a small retailer/restaurant not allowing credit card charges for < $5. Saves them money w/ the credit card companies.

    Not a good, customer friendly, solution however. Apple had the much better idea to aggregate single purchases over a day or so into one credit card transaction.
    • mark1372, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I missed the report that Microsoft was cash-poor and couldn't afford a cent or two for a credit card transaction.
  • madtoaster, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2HAHAHA way to fuk up again, microsoft...
  • crapple, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3M$ took a page out of Showbiz Pizza's (or Chuck E. Cheese's for you youngin's) book. Ass bags.
  • Brutus013, on 10/12/2007, -7/+0Yeah, because it is absolutely impossible for Microsoft to, maybe, change the points system? No way, you cant CHANGE software, that would be like erasing a misspelled word and rewriting it, totally impossible. Yup, death of the Zune alright.
    • bgbs, on 10/12/2007, -8/+0You know, zune can go by without you. Thats the first thing people do, is they critisize something first to its limit and then they go and buy it.
    • acousticiris, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11Not totally impossible, just unlikely.
      How many versions of Microsoft Office included Clippy by default, regardless of the customer disdain for annoying little virtual creature?

      I'm not an iPod fan (actually, I own a "plays for sure" device by Creative), but it does illustrate the differences between the two companies rather well. Every element of Apple's iPod, from the device packaging, the retail store, the software, and the device scream simplicity/minimalist by design. Microsoft tends to make their pdocuts, packaging and software are designed by owners of used car dealerships.
  • kuribo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3I always saw the same kind of problem in iTunes giftcards. Correct me if I'm wrong (I've never used these cards or the iTMS) but you buy them in even dollar amounts, right? I see ones for $15, etc. But, all songs cost $.99. So, aren't you losing 1%, unless you buy $99 worth of cards?

    Of course, that's not to say that the Zune's system isn't completely backwards too.
    • zip22, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6you are correct, but as the article states, with the zune marketplace you have to use giftcards. with the itunes system, even with a giftcard you can completely empty your account by spending the remander of a giftcard and charging the difference to a credit card. with the zune market, the only time you would have an empty account would be if you rbought exactly 400 songs.
  • deadbaby, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8I was actually optimistic that the Zune would challenge the iPod before I heard about this "MS Points" thing. Consumers are smarter than people give them credit for -- everyone knows "points" is just a nice way of disguising the real cost. Like this article says, it just doesn't have mass appeal. It'll be big with the hardcore Xbox 360 users I suppose but I don't see my mom logging onto Microsoft's site to buy "Ms Points" so she can buy music.
  • acousticiris, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3The Zune marketplace is based on the same ideas that the arcades use. It's the virtual version of "tokens" instead of cash. Most people can't do currency conversions on the fly, and that's essentially what this is.
    It probably works fine for the XBOX 360's Live component, because ... well ... if you have an Xbox 360, you don't have any choice but to use Microsoft Currency.
    Unfortunately, there are many other options when it comes to online music stores, and for those folks who don't own a Zune, the added overhead of completing a transaction is going to simply cause your average customer to go elsewhere.
    It's just common sense ... If you want someone to buy something from you, you make purchasing as easy as possible (without introducing the risk of fraud by not getting enough information).
  • bgbs, on 10/12/2007, -8/+2This is actually a very smart system. Right now I use Allofmp3.com, when you download music you have to put $10 minimum into account, then you are able to purchase songs. The cool thing about this, is that you dont have to constantly go and purchase songs providing your CC, because you did it once and you can sit on it until you use it up. So when you look at it from this perspective than it makes sense because I put in $5 bucks, and I use them and am not afraid to waster them. As with Apple idea, a person wouldnt want to go back purchasing over and over again with his CC. People hate using credit cards, because it means they have to pay interested on the freaking CC anyways, in the end your 99 cents song costs you $1.20 So I say, you guys are wrong about apple. I will buy zune once I get the money, and I will buy from MS because it is a great system indeed.
    • acousticiris, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Your argument would be great except that Microsoft could simply store your credit card information (which they already do) like Amazon and you'd never have to input it again.
      Somehow, I can purchase items on Amazon.com with "1-click" (patented). So how is this "points" system superior to that as far as convenience is concerned?
  • Deuterium, on 10/12/2007, -16/+4Only an Apple lemming would worry that a song is paid for by a points system rather than a straight currency transaction. 96% of the world just says the song cost xdollars and moves on. We worry more about whether this is a good value. But then again Apple lemmings also think it's a HUGE deal that to turn off a Windows computer you need to hit the START button first. While the rest of the world turns off the computer and goes to bed the Apple "people" are kept awake at night worrying........worrying.........worrying.......About Microsoft. Ahhhh the irony.

    • muntz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1sooo, when a relative gives me a gift certificate to a clothing store that's a scam? that system has been in place since the 70s (earlier?) and it works just fine. No one is going to do the math and figure out exactly what you're going to by, but they want to give you a GIFT that isn't cash that you might otherwise spend on your bills.

      In other words, this gift cards/certificates doesn't compare to a the ms marketplace. It's a different beast altogether. It's not like you go and buy yourself gift cards/certificates to go shopping at each store in the physical (or online) world.
    • DelMonte, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3" But then again Apple lemmings also think it's a HUGE deal that to turn off a Windows computer you need to hit the START button first."

      No, you are the one making a huge deal out of this. Mac users simply use this as a prime example of bad interface design, because it's easy to point out. The reality is that Windows is full of these counter-intuitive things. Whenever I have to use Windows I keep finding this kind of bad UI design everywhere, it's like they don't care...
  • haggie, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Buying DRM'ed music with points? No thanks. I'll stick with mp3s and cash.
  • krazikamikaze, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2For reference: http://www.shift4.com/fees_rates.htm

    Merchants have to pay something called an interchange fee to the credit card companies for every purchase made with a credit card. The fee can include a flat-rate part and a percentage based part. If the flat-rate fee is 5 cents and most people are making credit card transactions of $1, that's 5% of your revenue wasted. If you force them to pay in larger chunks you can cut down on expenses.

    And the article says MS should just copy iTMS. This may have changed recently, but isn't iTMS itself unprofitable and just a way to sell more iPods? What's the problem with MS trying to make a profit, not by raising prices, but by reducing the cut taken by credit card companies?
    • Kev585, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I'm bite:
      The flaw in the system is not the point system itself or not making 1 $ charges for a single song. The flaw is not making one point worth 1 $.
    • superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Apple make some money off iTunes, it is not operated at a loss. Just low margins.

      The way they work the transactions is to wait for a day or so before charging you, and bundling all the charges you made into one - since most people buy a few songs at a time on a binge, it generally works out pretty well for everyone.
  • yonah, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4I hope this doesn´t ruin anything for zune. The iPod needs competition, in my opinion.
    • astrosmash, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3The iPod has tons of competition. Microsoft's entry into the market caused Apple to drop the iPod's price to $250. THANKS MICROSOFT!!!

      Plus, there's a large portion of the market who will never buy an iPod simply because they hate Apple. That anti-iPod market is large enough that it's worth it for companies like Microsoft and Sony to fight over.

      Microsoft will sell *LOTS* of Zunes, I can assure you.
  • funk49, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0What would be cool is if they had a way to transfer the points to someone else and also had a way to redeem the points back onto your credit card. That way, you would have people providing exchange services and multiple ways to use your points....sell them, trade them, give them away...more options than what is happening now.

    Also, the reason why it isn't one for one is that they are holding onto the possibility of very small micropayments and don't want to be limited to a 1-1 ratio. Who knows what they are smoking in Redmond.
    • bgbs, on 10/12/2007, -3/+0they copied allofmp3.com. The best music place ever.
    • DelMonte, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1bgbs: Yeah the best music place in the world! I'm sure the artists that recorded the music you bought there and that didn't receive a dime from aomp3 agree with you!
  • chickenselects, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3lame.

    It works for xbox live because its the only option. They are allowing you to use your gamertag with the zune which makes it appealing to 360 owners. You can also spend your MS points on your zune or on xbox live. If they did a different system then you'd loose the ability to share the points between the pc and 360.

    THIS is why they kept the same point system for the zune. Its too late to bitch, you should have gotten it out of your system when the 360 was released.

    don't be a noob.
    • muntz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1also, if i buy a 360 i can't use my leftover points because i'm on a mac. at least itunes works on both platforms (hopefully linux soon)
  • Microdot, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9holy ***** batman!

    long live the ipod/itunes.
  • Brutus013, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Wait, can't you just put your existing songs on the Zune, though?
  • abstraxion, on 10/12/2007, -11/+3Another thoughtful Microsoft opinion from "Apple Matters"

    Besides, Microsoft doesn't have the muscle to leverage CC companies into reducing credit card fees on small orders like Apple could because they're the number one provider of digital music right now. So just because Apple has blackmailed another industry into providing better fees for them doesn't mean we should hold it against MS.
    • superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9So please explain then how Apple arranged the same deal they have now when they first opened the music store and has zero percent of the market?

      The answer is that Microsoft is getting the same deal, and could work just like iTunes - they choose not to.

      Apple lowers transaction fees by waiting around a day to submit your charge, grouping together all purchases at that time - after all, songs are like potato chips. You can't buy just one...
  • placebofx, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1All Microsoft needs now is a theme park and some animated characters. MS fun money. Will Bill Gates face be on the bill?
  • bgbs, on 10/12/2007, -8/+0Can someone explain to me what an IPOD is?
    I dont understand this, all I hear is IPOD. help.
  • lysdexia, on 10/12/2007, -13/+0I can't take Apple seriously. They are - after all - the company that knows it's users will struggle with a two button mouse.
    • LegacyCode, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8How many times is this false statement going to be repeated? Granted, Apple only recently started selling a multi-button mouse, but their OS has supported right-clicks, contextual menus, etc for what, a decade now.

      If you are going to bash Apple, at least pick a real problem that they still need to address. Their OS is not perfect by any means (nor is any other OS for that matter), but your arguments will carry more weight if they are valid and stay on topic.

      I take Apple seriously because they look for the easiest, seamless way to provide an experience to the end user. Sure, they could do points, it may save them $$ in CC transaction fees. They could have variable pricing. They could support lots of devices. They could give you endless amounts of options, checkboxes, settings, etc...the list goes on...but there is something to be said for clicking one button, knowing exactly and immediately how much money you spent, and having that show up on your device, ready to play, no worries, no hassle.
  • sinner0423, on 10/12/2007, -9/+2What did you guys expect?

    It's Microsoft, and it's "legitimate" music purchasing. You and I both know that 95% of the marketplace doesn't legally buy music. Apple may be able to quote X amount of sales for their media, but think about how many iPod's have been sold, versus the amount of iTunes purchases. It doesn't make sense, people are getting their music, and it surely isn't from legitimate services.

    Biased or not, people are starting to realize what a giant waste of time these pricing models are. You can't compete with FREE, now can you?
  • sybersnake, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4This is the exact reason i have not bought MS points on Xbox Live. Why can't they just use real currency??
  • mandarin, on 10/12/2007, -9/+3What an angry article....
    Why am I not surprised it comes from Applematters? Just dont buy it, simple as that.
    Obviously the point system is used for Xbox Live Marketplace. It doesnt take a genius to figure that out.

    At least they're not charging 99$ for a leather slip-on...
    • flag564, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2"What an angry article....
      Why am I not surprised it comes from Applematters? Just dont buy it, simple as that.
      Obviously the point system is used for Xbox Live Marketplace. It doesnt take a genius to figure that out.

      At least they're not charging 99$ for a leather slip-on..."

      thats not the point.

      The point is that the Apple fanwhores, whom still want us to believe that the Zune is no threat to the ipod, jumps on this silly story from an Apple site and pours out their usual kooky anti-Zune rants and jeers. they mod up each others comments and run off screaming into the night with their ipods up their a$$es.

      And the next day, the Zune is still there.
  • bgbs, on 10/12/2007, -11/+0Listen people, the same IPOD Worshippers, complain all day about Windows, xbox, Office, etc. There is no reason to try to prove anything to them. All we know, is that M$ got there where it is right now without these fanatics, and frankly it doesnt need them to make money.

    They critisized xbox when it first came out. They will critisize ipod until they run out of steam. So we just have to let them get it out of their system. Give them their binky, let them suck on it, and go on doing about your business.
    • superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Why would iPod worshipers complain about the iPod?

      It seems like the "iPod worshipers" are a little more careful about what they type.
    • oxyrubber, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5"complain all day about Windows, xbox, Office, etc."
      The XBOX360 was a significant improvement and I don't have any problems with it, the products you listed are either bloated, insecure, inferior to rival products, or a combination thereof. Windows and Office are bloatware (with countless security holes). But it's not really MS's fault... it's the American public's for not making wise consumer purchases (of MS products). They are giving validation to the shotty programming/product-lifecycle practices Microsoft has/uses.

      "There is no reason to try to prove anything to them."
      If MS is going to get some of the Apple/IPod/ITMS marketshare, those are the exact people MS has to aim for. There IS a need to prove to those people that the Zune is somehow superior to Apple's product/service or the growth potential of the Zune is very small.

      "All we know, is that M$ got there where it is right now without these fanatics, and frankly it doesnt need them to make money."
      As we all know, MS made it where they are now by buying up products/companies and reselling their products and then bundling OS licenses with prebuilt computers for $5/license and charging $300/license. The IPod fanatics didn't help MS get where they are today, but they sure can prevent them from growing in the digital music distribtion market.
      MS's stock is not growing... which is bad news for stockholders and for employees who are hoping for equity. Their company is growing stale and dipping into too many markets. They DO need to take new markets with overwhelming success (which has been a problem for them recently).

      "They critisized xbox when it first came out."
      I didn't criticize the XBox until AFTER it came out (when it failed to meet or beat the PS2). The judge is still out as to whether the XBox360 is better than the PS3 and/or the Wii.

      "They will critisize ipod until they run out of steam.
      You are the only one criticizing the IPod. Did you mean the Zune? It's MS fanboys (or Apple hate-boys) that make me want to promote the IPod more (even though I haven't given Apple a dollar for any IPod I bought).

      And bgbs - quit trolling.
  • bdpf, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Is it legal for them to make an Internet form of money ?
    I thought Uncle was the only one who could make legal tender in the USA.

    Besides it's M$, so who in their right mind would buy from them?
    ROCK THREW THE WINDOW /RANT/
  • TheBEAST205, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1Why pay for music when you can be a pirate and get it for free!! That was probably MS's strategy "Let's make this complex point system so it will encourage people to go illegally down load music and piss off the RIAA!"

    As for Xbox Live, yes, I do purchase things with the points. I guess that's just a tough fact of life though :(.
  • smuduffy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Were these guys watching office space when they thought this up?
    Makes marketing a lot easier for them, and the benefit to consumer would be marginal at best.
    • bgbs, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1they were thinking global.......
    • MacParrot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1bgbs,
      If the only reason for the MS points was for a global market, then I might agree that it made sense. The problem is that it isn't because of a global market. Each music store has to go to each country and region and negotiate with them to allow for content sales. Each agreement is essentially a different contract for sales in the country that the music store will be hosted in.

      The reason for the multiple iTunes stores in each country isn't because of language issues, it's because Apple made an agreement with content copyright holders in each country to sell their content. Microsoft will have to do the same when they go global. I have no idea if the cost for download will be near the same in other countries as it is in the US (or the currency equivalent). If MS is smart, it will be, but that is an arrangement they'll have to make with the copyright holders.

      I won't buy a Zune not because I'm an Apple fanboy (though I am a Mac user and do use an iPod nano), it's because MS isn't offering anything better for me AS a Mac user. Their software isn't compatible and I refuse to buy a video player with a 3-inch screen (the same reason I won't buy a 2.5-inch iPod with video). Give me software that will run natively on my platform of choice, that is as easy to use as iTunes and I'll consider another player.

      As far as the points system goes, I must agree that this is essentially an interest-free loan to MS for all unused points. Please correct this misconception if you can, but I'm not sure what argument you could make against it. I give MS money for points. While those points are not in use, MS has my money to do with as they please.
  • Lotus79, on 10/12/2007, -8/+3I love the source. There is no way that this is microsoft bashing at all.
    • bgbs, on 10/12/2007, -8/+1of course not, it cant possibly be bashing when it comes from applematters.com .
    • TheZorch, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8I see nothing wrong with Microsoft bashing. I mean is it wrong to bash a company who stabs their business partners in the back on a regular basis, buys competitors out of business, forces their way into markets they traditionally don't belong, and forces OEMs to preinstall their OS and forces them to pay a "tax" for every computer sold even if it doesn't ship with their OS installed?

      In correction of my previous comment the articles SAYS Zune Marketplace songs are about the same prices a iTunes songs, but how long will it stay that way because we all know the Microsoft is on the RIAA's side and if they can't get Steve Jobs to raise iTunes prices then they will for damn sure see if they can get Microsoft to raise theirs.
  • TheZorch, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2This will ultimately end up costing people more money than say your average iTunes user. Suppose you have two people wanting to buy music on iTunes and Zune Marketplace. Lets say its the same song, any song really but lets assume its a popular Top 40 tune. On iTunes its .99 cents and on Zune Marketplace the song costs 400 points. Let us then assume the Zune customer bought a $15 2000 point card. That song cost the iTunes user only $1.00, actually less than that, and the Zune user is out $5. What we really need is a clear view as to how many points each song will cost in Zune Marketplace, but when you look at home hard the RIAA tried to push Apple to raise iTunes prices you can't ignore the fact that the RIAA will convince Microsoft to raise theirs...and MS consistantly has sided with the RIAA/MPAA.
    • superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I don't think Microsoft will raise prices at all, they can't to stay competitive with ITMS. However what they are doing is using the misleading point system to make people think they are paying 79 cents a song.
    • TSSaloic, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Yes initaly it costs $5/400pts minimum but the other $4.00/371pts are still yours and can be used for other songs or XBL Marketplace items.
  • theplaz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Interesting. I bet Microsoft hopes to profit by people forgetting points. Also people lose control of knowing what their spending. I hate stupid point structuers. Best Buy's reward zone just got rid of their stupid point thing You use to get 1000 points for a dollar purchase and needed 150000 points to get $5 back. Now you need only 250 points at a dollar a point (notice they changed it at the same time to require $250 to get $5 instead of $150). This is just stupid. They want consumes to loose control.

    Anyway, the only reason companies do this is to offer special deals by giving bonus points when you purchase lots of points.

    Dave and Busters also does this and it works pretty well. Skype kinda does it to get around currency and different rate problems.
  • GruntboyX, on 10/12/2007, -9/+4i seem to remember this conversation a long time ago but it went....

    Apple fan boys: Holy hell! Microsoft is licensing their operating system! that is so stupid the experience will be crap across a variety of hardware - Long live apple!.

    yeah we all know what happened there...


    I think its a great idea and it works because it normalizes the currencies its essentially like entering a foreign country to buy your goods. or buying goods from foreign countries on the internet but without those insane exchange rates credit card companies charge you. It also allows them to operate more efficiently because they can run one store that everyone world wide can participate in. Unlike itunes where there has to be a store for each country. Its a different philosophy, and i think it will work. And if you go by current exchange rates 1 ms point is about 1 euro. i wonder who they are targeting? And currently the Euro is stronger then the dollar. Its all semantics.

    bottom line Apple snobs are just scared that Microsoft might one up them on the competition. Remember we are in a world wide market. And Microsoft knows that ipods are only a huge success in the states. world wide they are not. They are going for the world wide market share. Not to appease the apple, hippie, California fruit cakes.
    • TheZorch, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6@GruntboyX
      "bottom line Apple snobs are just scared that Microsoft might one up them on the competition. Remember we are in a world wide market. And Microsoft knows that ipods are only a huge success in the states. world wide they are not. They are going for the world wide market share. Not to appease the apple, hippie, California fruit cakes."

      Sorry to burst your bubble but the iPod is a Global success and not just in the US. I don't knew where you got your information from but they must have been smoking something. The iPod is huge in Europe and Asia, especially Japan. I just recently discovered that Apple has stores in Moscow, Russia! Also, compared to the iPod the Zune is a bulky, ugly beast of a machine not mention that its a recycled Toshiba MP3 player which FLOPPED in Asia because it was a piece of *****.
    • slaytanic313, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I do believe for now anyway the Zune will only be sold in the US and so this system helps no one. As a former employee of BBY and selling tons of crap to people who just don't know a lot about technology and all, if it's not easy they won't by it. And this isn't a very wasy thing to catch on to. The reason the iPod is so popular is because people who can't program their vcr can use an iPod. That is why the wireless thing won't be big. Not a lot of people will understand it.
    • MacParrot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Gruntboy,
      Also consider that your iTunes log-in doesn't work in other countries. MS hasn't gone global with the Zune Marketplace, but I'll reserve judgement until I see if they do the same. If they do not allow for a global log-in, then the argument that it is meant for a global experience (hence not using local currencies for purchase) goes right out the window.
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