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Brian Ball of macZOT screws developer out of $5,520
maniacalrage.net — Brian Ball agreed to pay $5,520 for xPad by Garrett Murray - after one month in, he stopped paying, ceased all communication, and found a loophole to get out of his end of the contract. Very sneaky indeed, and I certainly won't be purchasing anything from macZOT again.
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- UGM2099, on 10/12/2007, -4/+35Beware the wrath of Digg. This could get ugly.
- virtualball, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11Eh, they said the same about Gizmodo and the wrath of digg, look how that turned out...
- DJSdotcom, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12The ugliest part about this is the ridiculous contract, where if somebody doesn't want to pay it's no big deal, contract is null and void. As someone who does client work for a living, the most important part of the entire project/deal/negotiation is the contract. Putting together a legal document worth many thousands of dollars without having a lawyer go over it first is just a recipe for disaster, and this developer learned that first hand. If it took a few thousand dollars lost for Garrett Murray to learn how to properly deal with contracts, then I guess it's money well spent.
- vonnie, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I don't buy stuff anymore from maczot because there isn't anything interesting anymore on it. Other than that, the developer was silly to include that loophole in the contract. Even so, when doing business you have to have some basic level of trust with your business partner. You simply can't put every single case in the contract. Untrustworthy partners will find a way to screw you over anyway.
Million dollar deals are being closed with a simple "you have my word". If someone screws you over, you cancel any future business deals with him and you spread the word. (and start working on your 'people-reading-skills'). I don't think maczot will be able to close a lot of deals anymore with other developers after this.
- nezson, on 10/12/2007, -5/+34This *should* get ugly.
- fishbert, on 10/12/2007, -15/+37No, it shouldn't.
"If the buyer fails to make a payment after 90 days, this contract shall be void and terminated at which point all rights and license will revert back to the seller. At such a time, the buyer will no longer have rights to publish or use any of the materials covered in this contract. No refund will be made to the buyer."
The developer may feel he was screwed, and I do sympathize... but this so-called "loophole" is stated in simple, clear English (no legal translator required). I chalk it up to naivety regarding contracted work. The up-side of this story is that the developer retains the rights to xPad. - Oculus, on 10/12/2007, -4/+17Yeah, I agree with Fishbert. Unfortunately, as Garrett states in the article, it was his fault for trying to be "fair" when he wrote that clause into the contract. While Brian handled it in a crappy way, he was in his right to do what he did. Sucks from a business standpoint, but it happens. Sorry Garrett, glad you got the rights back though.
- demonicume, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7sucks? no thats down right *****. that clause says nothing about the money owed. this clause is standard. the idea that he should have to pay for the months he missed should have been understood. i'd take him to court and let a judge decide.
- Sturmur, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7While I do sympathize with the creator of xPad, fishbert is correct. There was no 'screwing' out of money. macZOT followed the contract.
BUT, the action of macZOT may be more detrimental that they realize. The mac community is a pretty tight-knit community compared to that of the Windows community. Trying to market yourself as an honest, friendly retailer might be much more difficult. If I was a mac user, after this debacle, would not give any of my business to macZOT. Even though they didn't do anything technically wrong, the way in which they tackled their situation would deter me from trusting them with my money. - Quix, on 10/12/2007, -2/+17"BUT, the action of macZOT may be more detrimental that they realize."
Agreed. This is the worst $5k MacZOT ever saved. Yes, they followed the contract. Yes, they did it in a slimy way. Sounds like something Microsoft would do.
MacZOT is officially off my "links to check every day" list.
Mess with the good vibes of the Mac community at your peril. - Adgeman, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5I found maczot to be a huge disappointment. I bought it when it wasn't clear what would be included in it and got software which i either didn't install or zapped very quickly after I installed it. The recent MacHeist was a much better deal.
- katanna, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Legally, he was right.
Morally, he was wrong.
Matthew - FeynmanFan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0It's more than just a loophole.
Imagine the negotiation for this. You're buying a product that you think **MIGHT** be valuable, but you're not entirely sure. So maybe you offer $2000 to buy it outright.
The other guy counters with a pay as you go situation; if it looks like it will work out, then you keep paying, otherwise, you can terminate the contract. This arrangement significantly reduces your risk, so you're willing to offer $5500 (or whatever the deal was).
This so-called loophole was part of what was purchased - a reduction in risk. I don't agree necessarily, even in hindsight, that it was a bad idea: it depends on what the alternative arrangement would have been. The alternative might have been no deal at all.
- fishbert, on 10/12/2007, -15/+37No, it shouldn't.
- garrettmurray, on 10/12/2007, -3/+77(I wrote this post, I am the developer in question.)
@fishbert: If you notice, in the post, I wrote that it is my fault for writing that loophole in. My complaint was the way in which Mr. Ball acted in the situation, which I feel was very unprofessional.
I agree with you--the upside is that I retain rights to xPad, and the further upside is that I made it freeware and will release the source.
I'd also like to clarify that I wasn't screwed out of the full amount, but $4,140 USD instead. He made the first two payments.- zforrester, on 10/12/2007, -0/+35dude, thanks for making it freeware, that's totally awesome
- TugsMcgroin, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6The best way to get even was to make the project freeware. Very nice move. In theory, couldn't you go after any revenue (or loss of revenue because you couldn't sell it) generated between the end of the 90 day window and when you regained control of the product?
- fishbert, on 10/12/2007, -8/+4@garrettmurray
I agree that Mr. Ball acted unprofessionally in that he took his sweet time in notifying you of the change in their plans for the program (and the payments). His reason - that it was due to "other urgencies" - is certainly understandable, but that doesn't really excuse it. However, I don't think he can be painted completely in an unprofessional light, as he did apologize for the delay and offer to help you find another another developer for the program.
Stuff like this happens, and in this case, I don't believe it was due to any malicious/devious behavior on the part of Mr. Ball. In short, it's not something I'd boycott the company over.
As a side-note, I just purchased a Mac Pro last week (my first Mac), and now I've been exposed to another new program to try out for it. Thank you. - spdorsey, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Good work. GarretMurray. I also have freeware available, and I love that anyone can enjoy it without the hassle of giving me a few bucks. Congratulations on taking the higher ground and being the better man.
- webranding, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Well I sent you I think $9.99 for xPad over a year ago and I'd do it again. It is the one application I can say is running on my machine 24/7. It is just so nice to work in a clean, slick, and simple product. I don't need mail merge, charts, all that junk. I just want a place to write. So thanks for creating a product that I recommend more then anyother to every mac user I run into.
- ezweave, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6From your post, it sounded like it was only broken up into monthly payments to make the purchase easier to swallow.
I do agree that the contract should have been worded better, however treating other developers with respect is crucial to your business. I hope this costs them business, just because the contract allows it doesn't make it ethical.
As to the delay? That is purely exploitive. Even if "other issues" were more pressing, they could of at least contacted you (it was easy enough). The actions of Mr Ball paint him as being lazy and manipulative. He should run for office. - ideabrian, on 10/12/2007, -49/+25This is Brian Ball, the person in question here. First, to see something like this on Digg is great. It gets exposure for xPad if it's being re-released and gets people to know that you can get out and try to make things happen. Here's the scenario for those who may otherwise be afraid to make a deal.
1. Get a contract (also known as an agreement) that both sides "agree" to.
2. Do you best to make something work. In our case, we were able to spend a little bit of development time and effort into xPad, and I think the money Garrett got for the deal was a lot more than the 60 sales he had in the previous 6 months.
3. When the deal doesn't work out, if you were smart and put a way out into the contract, then use the agreement.
Simply put, Garrett came out ahead in the deal. Sure, if he spent the money ahead of time with the expectation he'd have it, then it's unfortunate. However, he made it clear that he had no intention of doing anything further with xPad and had moved on to other things.
If you buy something at Target, and return it because it doesn't meet your needs, are you screwing Target out of the money? The manufacturer? Or are you simply following the contract that was agreed upon before you purchased. The one that says you can return it for a refund based on certain conditions.
Garrett is a great guy, I enjoyed working with him on this, and I don't feel bad at all because he made a couple thousand dollars he wouldn't have made and a lot of people got exposed to his cool software. The fact that we couldn't afford to invest $500 / month for an app with very little demand and lots of competition is a lesson for all of us.
Get xPad for free when it's available. It's a nice app.
Brian
P.S. This seems like something John Gruber should blog about too. Anything with the word screwed in it is fair game. - ideabrian, on 10/12/2007, -37/+10@Garrett,
If the truth were as juicy as how you're positioning this, I don't think there would be much to talk about. - garrettmurray, on 10/12/2007, -1/+34@ideabrian: I find it interesting that you're alleging this isn't true. I wrote facts only and I have emails, contracts and instant message logs to back it up. I don't appreciate a statement that makes it sound like I've sensationalized. My post was succinct and to the point and was completely accurate. I haven't "positioned" anything and you know that.
- Shaft0rz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+16@ideabrian: Fair enough, in a sense. If you couldn't afford the payments though, why did you sign the contract?
- gaoshan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+25MacZot's reputation has already been tarnished by this. I know I won't deal with them again.
- lisaPT, on 10/12/2007, -58/+6Garrett,
Your headline is inaccurate and inflammatory.
As you admitted in a previous reply, Mr. Ball did not screw you out of $5,520. In fact, according to the contract that YOU agreed to, he didn't "screw" you out of anything. He paid you a few payments, stopped paying, and returned to you your application to do with what you wanted. You actually made money in the deal (the payments he made to you), and got your app back (which you could have sold again, marketed and sol more, or whatever).
Do you know if Mr. Ball got that much value out of the deal?
As a person who is trying to get people to be on his side by claiming that he did business with someone who operated dishonestly, why would you put up a dishonest headline for your news item? You are obviously hurt and upset.
IMHO it is more a lesson in understanding how to act with 100% personal responsibility for the agreements that you enter into, with your software or whatever. (You can lose the victim mentality and get on with your life. You obviously have much talent and much success.)
A good lesson learned at a young age.
Lesson - Don't agree to anything that you don't want to happen. That is why there are contracts (and lawyers). Do your due diligence.
In retrospect, it is nice that Mr. Ball did what he did, actually. It allowed you to make a decision to offer your app as freeware (probably because you also did not want to market it). So now people everywhere can enjoy your application for free, which they obviously appreciate. I think I'll download it and try it out myself.
So, actually, you've probably received way more value than Mr. Ball - especially since you are now complaining about this to everyone and giving him a bad rep. Mr. Ball gets slammed and you get to be known as a hero who gives away freeware (which you didn't have to do). I'd say that is a good deal and worth more than the $4,000+ that you didn't get in your business deal (though it wasn't technically lost money because you got your app back).
You did get your app back (and everything else). Mr. Ball has nothing of yours, just your comments here on digg, which are obviously affecting how people view Mr. Ball and macZOT!
I wouldn't say you lost anything, other than some pride because you realized you made a mistake in your negotiations, and you don't like that Mr. Ball followed a contract that you probably should never have agreed to (you see now in retrospect, though you wouldn't have thought anything had it gone the way YOU wanted).
Things happen for a reason, and when you can find three good reasons why Mr. Ball returned you your application, you'll have a happy day, and stop being an angry young fellow.
Good day to you! - garrettmurray, on 10/12/2007, -1/+39If you'll notice, lisaPT, I DIDN'T CREATE THIS DIGG POST. So I didn't create the title, or the excerpt. I don't appreciate you yelling at me and calling me a jerk when you're not even sure what you're responding to. Good day to you as well.
You'll also notice, if you read this comment trail, that I CORRECTED the headline in a comment. My first comment, actually. Please read before you post. Thanks. - squidreturns, on 10/12/2007, -22/+6I can't believe people are burying Brian's explanation. Get off it. Both the developer and the marketer have taken up their sides in this story, which is commendable, and idjits are out there burying one or the other's side of the story? Get a life.
Oh, and by the way, in business, people disagree. Both guys here are right, and both are wrong. Who's the one who got screwed, the developer who lost 80% of his promised sale? Or the marketer who got screwed by (potentially) paying a 500% overcharge for a dog of a product?
Oh, and by the way, all business disagreements aside, xPad is a lamer version of SideNote, which was already free. So why the hell would someone pay for it? - dssstrkl, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14I've used MacZOT in the past, but never again. There is a difference in following the leter of a contract and following the spirit. Deciding two months in that he wasn't making enough money and not informing you is a slimey way to conduct business. This is why people are pissed at Novell and I hope that MacZOT does under because of this. I know how much work indie devs put into their work, and having ***** like this happen does not help the community one bit.
- cheesy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5An additional "benefit" (in a revengeful sort of way) from making xPad freeware... now all the people who bought xPad via MacZOT might be pissed at MacZOT for charging them for an app that is now free!
You did the right thing by refunding those who bought it after you regained ownership. Hopefully MacZOT will be forced to do the same... - rufous, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12@LisaPT, I've never seen a more obvious sock puppet account.
- somerandomnerd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Nothing dugg.
Nothing submitted.
One single comment.
I'd say that ticks all the boxes. - ToeCheese, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1@ squidreturns
You are such a dumb f*ck. How did Mr. Ball get screwed? By your statement, Mr. Ball purchased a product without researching it. It's like some of these a**holes who purchase shareware without trying the demo and then want their money back because they thought their product did something else.
And while Ball used the contract to get out of it. It seems like those who purchase an item just to use it for a while and return it back within the 30 days for there money back and that is slimey!
- garrettmurray, on 10/12/2007, -1/+34@TugsMcgroin (which, by the way, is one of the best usernames I've ever heard): It's not worth it and it's not really about the money in the long run. $5k isn't a ton of money and it stinks that this all happened, but this is more about making people aware and moving forward.
I'm glad people still want to use xPad, and I was happy to make it freeware. I hope that releasing the source will get some people interested in adding to it--I still think it's a great app but it's in need of an update and I think the community can do good things with it.- virtualball, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Thanks for making it freeware! It sucks to know that you try to be nice and sell your app to an orginization and get screwed for trying to be fair. That really sucks for you and thanks for the source! Now people could make it better then ever.
Oh and there is such a thing as the 'reply' button :) - hoyaman, on 10/12/2007, -8/+2Garrett,
The "reply" link is in the first comment of each thread..... it's hierarchical. I can see why you might be upset about it, but I don't know that you lost any money on this.
Consider that you wouldn't have sold the rights to xPad if it were still making money for you. You'd be actively developing and selling it. If you did and thought MacZOT would be great way to market the app, then you'd agree to either a percentage or a lesser fee up front in exchange for the "awesome" marketing power.
Given what Brian Ball has said, sales of xPad were rather underwhelming for him. In other words, in planing the purchase, he'd anticipated much more than $5k in sales of the app, and actually achieved much less. So he gave it back to you.
That's exactly how it works in any other line of business. Acquisitions collapse all the time precisely because the buyer has a false assumption about the product being sold, and it's potential.
Think on it: if you believe so strongly in xPad's potential, why not capitalize on the marketing push given to it by MacZot and iusethis and RELEASE and update, and continue to sell it? If it's worth $5k, you'd recover that and then some in no time.
If it isn't worth the $5k, then get it off your hands and make it open-source freeware. Not that software released under GPL isn't worthless (think Vienna), it simply has only as much worth as the community wishes to build into it, and that worth is "sweat equity," not financial equity.
Hopefully, your business ignorance won't kill a promising marketing effort. And while I like xPad, you should know that without MacZot, I wouldn't have considered it - KIT, Mori, DEVONnote all do the stickie thing just a bit better, with so much more.
Best of luck in your future endeavors.
- virtualball, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Thanks for making it freeware! It sucks to know that you try to be nice and sell your app to an orginization and get screwed for trying to be fair. That really sucks for you and thanks for the source! Now people could make it better then ever.
- spdorsey, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12I've never liked MacZot much. They were very rude to me via email when I requested that they accept payment through means other than PayPal.
- JHawk24821, on 10/12/2007, -22/+3www.duggmirror.com
- Sturmur, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13http://www.duggmirror.com
- HideoKojima, on 10/12/2007, -55/+1Typical mac fanatic.
- zforrester, on 10/12/2007, -2/+22IT"S IN THE APPLE SECTION
- virtualball, on 10/12/2007, -1/+30Dude, what's your problem? He was scred out of 4000-some dollars and all you can say is "typical mac fanatic?" This has nothing to do with Apple/Mac besides it is a program.
Typical Mac Hater - dssstrkl, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12typical *****. If you don't like mac stories, why troll the Apple section?
- garrettmurray, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3@virtualball: Thanks. Oh, and for some reason, the reply link doesn't show up on all comments for me. I don't know why... (I can't reply to you right now, for instance, because there's no option!)
- Scatropolis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10you have to reply to your original comment. It's just a chain off each head comment.
- garrettmurray, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Ah ha! Thanks!
- phong, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13I was such a fan of xPad that I purchased a license a couple years ago. I know that there are many other fans of xPad out there as well. Then I found out it was sold to MacZot which made somewhat disappointed inside, something just didn't feel right.
Garrett is a cool guy and it is unfortunate that he had to deal with so much crap.
That is extremely unprofessional on Brian Ball's part and I wonder how many other developers he has screwed.
I registered on MacZot but never purchased anything . . . I might not ever will. This definately gives me a negative view on MacZot.
Get xPad. Garrett is a great guy for making it freeware. He deserves a lot more.- garrettmurray, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@phong: Thanks for the kind remarks--I appreciate it!
- WiZZLa, on 10/12/2007, -18/+1MicrosoftZOT? or WindowsZOT? or VistaZOT?
- MajorMauser, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1Interesting
- superKduper, on 10/12/2007, -47/+6Mac people are dishonest. That's why I don't deal with them. Ever.
- sabarsky, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Why don't you go troll elsewhere?
- benwaterworth, on 10/12/2007, -8/+6it may be interesting to see if the people with a sense of humour can keep digging you up at the same rate as the mac fanboys digg you down.
i'm guessing the fanboys will win.
(just fyi i have a mac and a sense of humour) - titlesaysitall, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5wow, sweeping generalizations.
- benwaterworth, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7isn't that what digg is all about?
- impdr, on 10/12/2007, -8/+2gimme a t.
gimme an r.
gimme an o.
gimme an l.
gimme an l.
whadduzzit spell? - indranil, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1@benwaterworth: you say Mac fanboys and people with good sense of humours as if they're different!! Oh, and see how fast you're getting dugg down? :D
- Jetpac, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4is there any kind of silmilar program or a port of this program for windows? looks awesome!
(would love to mac it up but im a pc gamer.. :( )- moiety, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7So am I. That's why I bought a Mac Pro. Best of both worlds. ;)
- Glenn, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16I'm very disappointed in Mr.Ball. I worked with him for a number of months when he was getting MacZOT going, and this story will really make me think twice about supporting MacZOT in the future.
- paulsmerdon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7This situation is a clear example of how, in certain circumstances, lawyers can actually be useful.
- TechPedia, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19@ideabrian
Brian, if that's really you, I don't think you are doing yourself a service by arguing this in the public forum.
Your argument that this is like buying something at Target and returning it is invalid. You bought the source code to his software (which you probably still have) and can develop similiar apps or apps with similar features. You sold the product during the purchase time (which he couldn't, legally) and you likely caused Garrett undue financial hardship during the 90 days...90 days in which you sold how many copies of xPad?
You were, in the moral sense, COMPLETELY in the wrong. Perhaps legally you have the upperhand, but as a member of the Mac community, you are not in a very noble position.
I think that you should offer refunds to everyone who purchased xPad from MacZot during this time period.- flickr, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Here here.
- garrettmurray, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12He does indeed still have all the source materials, including the app itself, the code generation app, the website originals and the user list.
- garrettmurray, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10I want to clarify: There's nothing that can be done about the fact that he has them. I'm not saying that as in "he won't give them back," but just confirming that these are digital assets, so aside from deleting them there's nothing that can be done. I'm not worried about Mr. Ball releasing some other version of xPad (I would hope he wouldn't do this).
- awilkinson, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7The cheese eating rat bastard.
- Sturmur, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7What happened to this story, it's gone from the frontpage?
- garrettmurray, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10I want to know the same thing. For some reason, it disappeared suddenly from the front page of Digg. Can someone explain to me why that happened?
- DPowers08, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12Brian Ball probably got a ton of friends to bury it.
- macdude20, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Somebody should write a story on how stuff like this gets censored by people like Brian Ball. I'm sure that it would make the front page and really teach a lesson to those who unethically game digg to their advantage
- xshaisu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Digg is flawed.
- hoyaman, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1Don't storie rotate to and fromt he frontpage?
My word, I don't know if this complaint makes ANY sense now. You can't figure out how Digg works, then what?
- zackkitzmiller, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6At least xPad is freeware Under GPL now.
- Jetpac, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3There needs to be a windows version!!
i have so much use for a program like this!- TechPedia, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Maybe Brian will write one and release it.
:) - heffae, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I agree I use Notepad2 which is a great windows text editor but this thing looks great and I would love to try it. Here's hoping now thats it's GPL some one can port it to windows.
Though given that it's a Cocoa app I don't know if that is actually realistic.
- TechPedia, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Maybe Brian will write one and release it.
- burkesquires, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2An option that has not been mentioned here is to vote with our mouses by clicking on the ads on the xPad page so the ad revenue goes to Garrett and it offers a goodwill compensation to make up the difference that Garrett was cheated out of. (This is assuming Garret has access to the revenue generated by the ads)
For those who believe Garrett was cheated out of money, do not support macZot and click now!- garrettmurray, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16I do, and I appreciate the sentiment. But this isn't about the money. In fact, I want to say this:
Any money that comes in via those ads starting today will go to The National MS Society. I will donate 100% of all ad revenue. So I agree with you--click those ads... I'll send all the money to someone who really needs it.
- garrettmurray, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16I do, and I appreciate the sentiment. But this isn't about the money. In fact, I want to say this:
- JimNtexas, on 10/12/2007, -12/+4The author sold his program with a 90 escape clause for both parties. The author of the program is also the author of the escape clause. One party elected to escape. The language could not have been more clear. Nobody is being screwed.
I called the Wammmbulance and buried for lameness. - ideabrian, on 10/12/2007, -44/+9Garrett and I (Brian) Just chatted and tried to get clear on what's going on. Here's the summary:
1. He wanted to explain to his customers what happened. He wasn't saying he got screwed and that was something sensationalized by the person who originally dugg this so they could get on the front page. (which is what any decent marketing person would do! ;-)
2. We agree that we both learned from the process and there are no hard feelings moving forward.
3. Please do support anybody who's trying to make something happen - whether it's xPad or MacZOT - realizing the mistakes are how people learn.
4. Sometimes things don't work out for the best. However, in the grand scheme of things, most things do.
5. Get xPad. Don't hate MacZOT. Use Mac OS if you can.- garrettmurray, on 10/12/2007, -2/+67Whoa... that was even more unprofessional. That's NOT what we decided. Here are the contents of our messages:
Brian Ball: Do you think that's an honest assessment of what happened?
Garrett Murray: as i just wrote in a comment on digg, i think it's interesting that your method of dealing with this is to call me a liar.
Garrett Murray: my post is 100% accurate, and you know it.
Garrett Murray: and, if you want, i can post the contract, the emails, the instant messages as well.
Brian Ball: I didn't call you a liar did I
Garrett Murray: you wrote: "If the truth were as juicy as how you're positioning this"
Brian Ball: Garrett, the only thing you need to know is this.
Garrett Murray: which means that i've lied or misrepresented the things that occurred
Garrett Murray: which i did not
Brian Ball: When we were negotiating the deal..
Brian Ball: I didn't see the loophole as you being fair if I couldn't pay.
Garrett Murray: i am not a stupid person. i would not write ***** and pass it as fact. i have nothing to gain from all this. i'm not selling anything, i'm not asking for anything.
Brian Ball: I saw that as integral to the deal in itself.
Brian Ball: that is, I saw it as, if I can't make this deal work, then I have a way out.
Garrett Murray: people have asked me what happened and told me i should write about it, so i have. xpad customers have complained about things and i have to set that straight. i did right by them for 3 years and then i messed up by letting this whole thing happen
Brian Ball: My intention was never to sell it at retail and market it that way.
5:35 PM
Brian Ball: It was contingent on making it something I could bundle with other developer's apps.
Brian Ball: From there, it would be like a free add-on.
Garrett Murray: i put that clause in in the last (or second to last) version of the contract, and i didn't do it for your benefit. i'm sorry the way you took it was that it was a simple out for you if things didn't go well
Garrett Murray: as i wrote in the post, that was my mistake.
Brian Ball: And, I figured that since i was on a payment plan, I had some breathing room to make it happen.
Garrett Murray: and you didn't bring it up during negotiations because i think you saw your out and let it pass quietly. which is fine. the cards fell where they did.
Brian Ball: I certainly couldn't have done the deal if I had to pay $5,000
Brian Ball: cash for the app
Garrett Murray: well, that's called being underhanded, brian
Brian Ball: I could have had a new app coded for that.
Brian Ball: no it's not
Garrett Murray: yeah--you wish. good luck finding the developer who builds an app for 5k and gives it to you.
Brian Ball: I think you made some assumptions that just weren't accurate
Garrett Murray: when you find them, tell them apple is hiring suckers as well
Brian Ball: why are you bitter about this?
Garrett Murray: look, i have the right to represent the situation accurately and explain to my loyal customers what i did that might have caused them issues
Garrett Murray: i did that
Garrett Murray: and i did it factually.
Brian Ball: I didn't see you mention the money you got up front
Garrett Murray: without libel and without blowing things out of proportion
Brian Ball: wasn't it like $900 or something
Garrett Murray: i DID mention it, actually
Garrett Murray: PERHAPS YOU SHOULD READ THE POST FIRST
Brian Ball: I don't see it on Digg
Brian Ball: also, on your post, you said I only made 1 payment
Brian Ball: that's not accurate
Garrett Murray: i didn't post that digg hit, i didn't excerpt it
Garrett Murray: someone else did
Garrett Murray: yes, it is accurate
Garrett Murray: you made the initial down payment
Garrett Murray: of 920
Brian Ball: the way I see it, you made a lot more on xPad through this deal than you would have without it.
Garrett Murray: and then 1 more payment
Brian Ball: no, I made at least 2 payments
Garrett Murray: and that's what the post says
Brian Ball: after the initial
Garrett Murray: no, you didn't.
Garrett Murray: you defaulted on october 10, after making the september payment (the first payment)
Brian Ball: and, I wasn't "selling" xpad during that time of getting stuff back to you.
Brian Ball: Sales were zero
Garrett Murray: i don't appreciate you alleging that i'm lying when you don't even remember what happened and haven't even read the post.
Garrett Murray: doesn't matter--people who had xpad and wanted to buy it hit YOUR site
5:40 PM
Brian Ball: Did you digg this?
Garrett Murray: NO
Garrett Murray: i have not dugg it. i made comments on an existing digg item that someone posted.
Garrett Murray: to be honest, i wasn't even prepared for the amount of feedback it's been sending
Garrett Murray: it crashed my server, all that stuff
Brian Ball: well, the title Brian Ball of macZOT screws developer out of $5,520.. is that accurate?
Garrett Murray: no, it isn't. and i WROTE THAT IN MY FIRST COMMENT
Garrett Murray: brian, i'm sorry, but if you're not even going to read things and then get angry about them, i can't waste this time
Brian Ball: Garrett, I'm not really angry at all.
Garrett Murray: see my first comment: http://digg.com/apple/Brian_Ball_of_macZOT_screws_developer_out_of_5_520#c4567766
Brian Ball: I don't feel like I did anything wrong in this.
Garrett Murray: that's fine. i'm not asking for anything from you.
Brian Ball: I wanted to make it work.
Brian Ball: It didn't.
Brian Ball: That's really all there is to it.
Garrett Murray: again: i had customers for 3 years, i made a decision that affected them, i apologized for it and told everyone what happened.
Brian Ball: great.
Brian Ball: they deserve that
Brian Ball: if I can learn something from this, I'd be pleased.
Brian Ball: if we were to do it over again, how could you see us working it out so that it was a win-win for both of us.. assuming I still couldn't invest the $460 / month on something that wasn't selling.
5:45 PM
Garrett Murray: brian, i wouldn't have sold it to you if you were more honest with me. saying you couldn't invest the monthly amount means you were never planning on paying it. which means signing that contract was pointless and you intended to default on it
Garrett Murray: i don't appreciate that kind of tactic
Brian Ball: no no
Brian Ball: I didn't go into the deal with the intention of defaulting
Brian Ball: Garrett
Brian Ball: look at your numbers prior to our deal
Brian Ball: those numbers certainly didn't justify the price we agreed on.
Garrett Murray: i gave you those numbers BEFORE you signed
Brian Ball: the fact that we both signed means we agreed. I get that.
Garrett Murray: do you understand who insane you sound to say that they didn't justify the price we agreed on??
Brian Ball: But don't you?
Garrett Murray: you LOOKED AT THEM and THEN sign A CONTRACT
Garrett Murray: i don't get what's confusing
Brian Ball: yes, and so did you.
Brian Ball: In fact, you wrote the contract.
Garrett Murray: if someone said to you, this car has only three wheels, and then you bought it, and then you took it back and said i'm not paying for this, it only has three wheels, people would laugh in your face
Brian Ball: or at least you sent it.
Garrett Murray: you knew what you were buying
Brian Ball: yes, and if someone said.. "but if you can't make the payment, I want the car back."
Brian Ball: actually, "If you don't make the payment, I want the car back."
Brian Ball: you presented the contract.
Brian Ball: that clause made it doable in my mind.
Brian Ball: I can't assume what you meant by it.
Brian Ball: it's just English
Garrett Murray: yes, yes, i get it. i understand that i shouldn't have given you the out. i appreciate the mistake i made. i wrote in the post that it was my fault for doing that.
Garrett Murray: but i also wrote that you acted extremely unprofessionally. you weren't upfront about your intentions, you ignored my requests and invoices, you didn't pay after 10 days into a month, etc
Garrett Murray: you acted unprofessionally and i didn't appreciate it.
5:50 PM
Brian Ball: well, if there was anything unprofessional about it, I was simply dealing with a situation that could have gone either way.
Garrett Murray: and i take offense that you think i should be happy with the 1300 because it's more than xpad was selling. that's not an argument--i wasn't actively selling xpad anyway so there's no comparison to be made.
Brian Ball: if you weren't actively selling xPad, then why wouldn't the money you made be welcome?
Brian Ball: We sold it on macZOT and you made $225, then a down of $920, and then a payment of $460
Brian Ball: $1625
Brian Ball: so you're right, only one $460 payment
Garrett Murray: i know i'm right. i confirmed details before i posted, i'm not a jerk
Brian Ball: I guess I am then.
Garrett Murray: the point of this is that you're saying "any money is good money"
Garrett Murray: which isn't the case
Garrett Murray: i wasn't look for just some amount of money
Garrett Murray: i worked my ass off on that app, and i didn't want to just sell it for whatever i got and then hope for the best
Brian Ball: I think the bottom line for me is that I had good intentions.
Garrett Murray: i made a mistake selling it to you, and i take the blame for that
Garrett Murray: and i made a mistake making it easy for you to default
Brian Ball: right, and equally, I made a mistake buying it.
Garrett Murray: and i take the blame for that too
Garrett Murray: but you made the mistake of buying something your couldn't afford and saying you could, and for acting unprofessional about it as well
Brian Ball: so two guys make a mistake, on a smallish scale. Isn't that something that happens daily?
5:55 PM
Brian Ball: it wasn't something I could afford.. it was more like the ship went in a different direction and xPad didn't make sense anymore.
Brian Ball: once i got clear on that, that's when we decided to give it back.
Brian Ball: prior to that, I was really trying to find a way to make it work.. during that time of decision is what you experienced as delay. My apologies.
Brian Ball: "He does indeed still have all the source materials, including the app itself, the code generation app, the website originals and the user list."
6:00 PM
Brian Ball: what does that mean I still have them?
Garrett Murray: apology accepted.
Garrett Murray: well, you do. there's nothing that can be done about that.
Brian Ball: technically, I probably do.
Brian Ball: backed up or whatever
Brian Ball: you don't think I'm going to try building a text editor from it though, do you?
Garrett Murray: i clarified that in a comment a few moments ago
Garrett Murray: refresh
Garrett Murray: i have to run. i wish this whole thing hadn't turned out this way. i wish you success in the future and hold no grudges (honestly). i just had to write that stuff because i felt it was necessary.
6:05 PM
Brian Ball: okay.. fair enough. I don't hold any grudges either. Love that we get to learn about life in such an interestingly "read dugg" way. - Frabjous, on 10/12/2007, -1/+26Ugh. I feel slimy just reading that. How does any decent person justify that sort of behavior?
I've bought things from MacZOT before, but that's not happening again. - quackartist, on 10/12/2007, -14/+1I think actually brian was pretty accurate in summarizing that conversation. While I think he did not act in a very nice or smart way, he was on solid legal ground. It's unfortunate that you put that clause in the contract; it's also unfortunate that Brian bought something that he didn't find to be worth the money.
- zforrester, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5This is awesome
Next, on FOX... - macewan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I'll definitely think twice before recommending anyone purchase from that site. If they treat a developer that way then how do they treat the customer?
- phill, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Brian Ball sounds exactly like a guy I do business with. If the name wasn't printed, I would have thought it was my customer.
- iSharQ, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Uhmm - I understand people are Digging this down because they disagree, but wouldn't it make sense to Digg it up? It's an important post to the context of this discussion?
- garrettmurray, on 10/12/2007, -2/+67Whoa... that was even more unprofessional. That's NOT what we decided. Here are the contents of our messages:
- digrob, on 10/12/2007, -6/+24Brian Ball, you are scum. It's pretty pathetic you have to have your cronies digg this down so everyone can't see what kind of loser you are. This is part of the problem with Digg.
- williamw, on 10/12/2007, -1/+41I too have been deceived by Brian Ball. A few months back I was attempting to get some part time work with something mac related, mainly support or something along those lines. I was put in contact with Brian, I thought macZOT was cool and thought he would be a good option, he also works with AppZapper. I started chatting with him, asking if he needed any help with any of his current projects. He wasn't totally clear if they had any work for me or not. Brian got me to a couple sample tests (writing list of the top apple bloggers, how would I improve macZOT, etc) after those he told me as a final test I was to take the top 100 "suggest-a-zots" apps, go to easch one of the sites and get the name of the developer, a contact email (not on most apps sites, only support emails). For about 70% of the emails I had to spend a couple minutes digging through sites, contact forms,and domain registar info. To do the whole list took about 5/6 hours of slow annoying work, and I was under the impression that I would be getting some work after all this.
I finally finish and send it off to him. The first thing he does is scrutinize me for not using PageMaker (Some gross app for offices). After that he didn't say anything else, so I aked him whether he had a place for me now that I'd done some work for him. This is where he pissed me off, he said "I was under the impression that I was coaching you" he then unloaded some pyramid scheme crap (Step 1: Visualize the objective blah....).
I seriously advise people to never work with Brian.- williamw, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Correction : It was FileMaker
- mediamanbkk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Lesson is that Developers should not give monthly terms - leave that to Credit companies
- phong, on 10/12/2007, -0/+23I just wanted to get this out.
I personally do not know Garrett. However, over the years, I have read snippets of his blog.
Earlier, when I said that he was a good guy . . . he is, seriously.
I know that he is a very strong advocate/supporter for the National Multiple Sclerosis Society. Through giving out Gmail accounts back in the day, and with his apps, he was able to get people to donate and raise hundreds and hundreds of dollars (perhaps well over a thousand) for the National MS Society, helping fund research in order to help people who has MS.
So get xPad or SimpleLog (his web app) and donate. Click on his ads also.
Unfortunately, I have a copy of AppZapper on my Mac and everytime I go to the about box, I see Brian Ball's name.
I have no right to judge or call Brian a jerk. But from what I have seen (literally, especially the IM messages), the way that Brian carried himself is very sad. I know that there were talks about the legitimacy of MacZot in respects to supporting software developers. I don't know about that anymore.
I'd say . . . Brian should write a $4,140 check to the National MS Society, and refund people their money back when it was sold under the ownership of MacZot.
I hope it all works out. - pr0fess0r, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3Garrett, you seem like a wonderful guy and you've handled this very well. Making your app freeware was a great move on your part. I'm a newbie Cocoa developer and you're an inspiration. (ooh, how do I get a copy of the source by the way?)
It's probably not fair to criticise either of you because (a) it's none of our business and (b) only you guys know the whole story... but I know that I signed up to MacZOT and MacHeist and so on because these services looked fun! They were novel, and had that "good vibes" Mac experience. If you got screwed, then that sucks, and Brian should realise that he could lose the good will of the community unless he makes a gesture along the lines of yours - then all of us Mac geeks can forgive him and we can get back to convincing people to switch from the PC :)
So, I'm not giving up on MacZOT yet but I hope Brian shows us all he's a good guy - pr0fess0r, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Oh and I'd happily donate for my free copy if you put up a PayPal link :)
- Toccoa, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15Ugh. At least I can delete MacZot from my daily RSS viewing.
- mstanisl, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Same here! Already deleted it. You know, like Brian Ball (read: jackass) deleted his own blog post, which I responded to. Not just me, but a lot of people with a very similar opinion. Guess Brian Ball likes to run away from anything that doesn't work out right away for his personal gain.
- slyydrr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3He's always been notorious for deleting the posts that "disagree" with something on the site. When I brought it up in another post, he deleted it. I brought it up again and he essentially called me an idiot. That was the point that I stopped giving him my business. Now is the point that I show other people why they shouldn't do business with him.
- mcsimpson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I guess the less on is that if you're gonna put in a clause that says "miss payments and you default, all licenses and material returns to the original owner" you should also include the line "and buyer is liable for remaining balance."
- BWhaler, on 10/12/2007, -0/+16Well, any dude that needs to pay 5 grand in monthly installments isn't too solvent or is going into the deal looking for a back door. Seller should have been smarter. Sorry Garrett.
With that said, a scumbag move is a scumbag move, and in my opinion Brian Bell is a scumbag. Trying to hide behind a contract and play semantics is for those with no honor. And the Bush Administration. And apparently, Brian Bell.
Brian: You will learn that you should never, ever ***** with the Mac Community.
We are too loyal to the small developers since there was many years when these little developers were all we had. Times have changed and everyone loves us know that we are cool again and because we have a higher disposable income, but we remember where we came from. And ***** these developers is a guaranteed way to lose your business. (See the MacTable story for a preview of your destiny.)
I have purchased from MacZot in the past. But will never do so again, nor from any company that employs Brian Bell. - plastree, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Mr. Ball,
This story makes you and your company look bad, period. No amount of semantic shuffling can repair the damage, in fact it worsens your image further. It seems too late to apologize now, but continuing to justify your position will only worsen your reputation. If you had simply apologized up front and worked out a deal with Mr. Murray, he might never have written the post to begin with. It could have been so easy... - Dripps, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Why can't I find this link searching on digg? I searched for Brian Ball and MacZot....all which came up empty. Seems there's some burying going on.
- macsamurai, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Brian had posted his response to all this on macZOT and I did a follow-up post with some of his comments before he removed his post on macZOT. Not sure why he deleted his own post but I suspect he wasn't quite prepared for the ensuing backlash from his own macZOT community. My follow up remains here: http://www.tuaw.com/2007/01/04/brian-ball-responds-to-xpad-developers-claims/
- cauldron, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I believe he deleted his post so he could re-think it and post a kinder, gentler one (which he now has). Which was a good idea, as the first post was pretty uncool.
- MajorMauser, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3After reading all of this..Since Brian (macZot) was never intending to SELL the app... it was just going to be thrown in as a bundle with other MacZots.... How? again How? can it not be selling well when MacZot was never actually actively selling it?
But I do think Xpad was the preverbal 3 wheeled car that the developer was selling to MacZot. MacZot seems to be like a large record company going out looking for IP and not really concerned with what it was actually buying... that is MacZot was not really knowledgeable of what it was buying and was willing to throw it into the air and see if it could fly. Since MacZot never even gave it a chance to fly... it basically rented the App for a few months and gave it back to the developer.... its in his contract. The Developer then which is the most confusing thing.... because if this app is worth anything ... And all the talk about "Garrett Murray: again: i had customers for 3 years, i made a decision that affected them, i apologized for it and told everyone what happened." all of the customers why is he turning around and giving the App away for free?
I think Xpad was thinking they were dealing with a mom and pop corporation and in fact he was dealing with a guy who is wheeling and dealing IP not really caring about what IP its buying.... which is really what MacZot does..
I think it was the intention of the developer to unload the 3 wheeled car to MacZot and when MacZot had a way out of it (Like a Warranty that you usually get when buying a used car) Xpad just like that used car dealer... when ballistic and did not want the product back. But it is in the contract its in plain english and the way I look at it MacZot was being fair.... as far as the contract and by giving everything back to the developer.- garrettmurray, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11@MajorMauser: When I speak of customers, I speak of people who paid the $9.99 over the three-year period when xPad was shareware. They are people who paid and supported the app, and I had a responsibility to tell them what happened. I stopped actively developing xPad a long while back. I had continual intention to pick it back up, but it never happened to due to other work, life, etc. When I saw the opportunity to sell the app to someone who wanted to continue it, I was thrilled.
It might be hard to believe, but I really love xPad and there are a lot of other people who do as well. This wasn't all about money (obviously--$5k isn't much for the 9+ months of work I put into version 1.0), it was about keeping xPad alive even if it wasn't me doing the work. A lot of people used the app and I thought it should be updated, but I didn't have time and Brian Ball came to me expressing interest in buying it so I thought that would be great.
I was very clear in all aspects of what Brian Ball was getting. I gave him sales figures, told him trends, estimated how much time he'd need to spend on further development before making money back, all of that. I was very clear. We had many conversations over the period of many days, and the end result was that Mr. Ball decided to buy it. I don't appreciate the argument that I was trying to "unload" junk on Mr. Ball. I wasn't unloading anything. I was very clear with him.
So, then, why am I giving it away for free now? This goes back to what I was saying before: I love xPad and I want it to continue. The only realistic way to do this at this point, since I have no time to develop it, is to make it free and open source it and let the community make it better. I've said over and over that this is not about the money. The post that started all of this was written to warn people about unprofessional behavior, apologize to xPad users, and to announce the change to freeware.
I hope that helps you understand the situation better.
- garrettmurray, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11@MajorMauser: When I speak of customers, I speak of people who paid the $9.99 over the three-year period when xPad was shareware. They are people who paid and supported the app, and I had a responsibility to tell them what happened. I stopped actively developing xPad a long while back. I had continual intention to pick it back up, but it never happened to due to other work, life, etc. When I saw the opportunity to sell the app to someone who wanted to continue it, I was thrilled.
- dcollantes, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Mr. Ball acted in a _very_ unprofessional way. From now on, I will use the term "he/she did a ***** Brian Ball to me" every time someone is unprofessional, shady or sleazy towards me. I am a Mac user but _never_ visited MacZot till today, and never will again.
- stainboy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2darn it, i ran out of popcorn. no, don't pause it for me, i'll catch up when i get back with another bowl.
- jaypz, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1It would be helpful if people didn't digg down Mr. Ball's comments just because they don't like him. Digg them up so they're easier to read, eh?
- ToeCheese, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I would Digg them up if he wasn't trying to spin his latest ***** up. Maybe if he issued an apology.
- MenageAMoi, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1I've been getting more and more worried about Maczot recently - what went wrong? I've been tending to delete the emails unread recently anyway - now I'll just unsubscribe.
- goodinuf, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3My experience with Brian Ball is that he does not keep his word. This is a shortened story of how he made a deal with me, then after I agreed he reneged.
Back in June after I purchased a MyzteryZOT I found out what I purchased did not agree with what was advertised. After many emails to Brian regarding the advertising error and requesting a refund I got a "Sorry" no refunds reply from Brian. I persisted with emails during which Brian made other offers that were not acceptable to me.
Eventually Brian offered to give me a license to the disputed software for free. Brian wrote rather than a refund "Wouldn't you rather just have Pzizz paid for?"
Even though I had no use for Pzizz after further consideration I wrote back agreeing to his offer "After a nights sleep I realize that your offer is more than an acceptable solution it is a fair solution."
The next day Brian wrote "So far, nobody I've talked to thinks it makes sense for me to send you the serial. Imagine if word got out a out and 650 other people came knocking at my inbox saying.. "Umm.. why did (name) get the free Pzizz when the rest of us had to pay $11.50 for it?"
It seems a lack of integrity is not something new to Brian Ball.
Eventually I did get a full refund on the MysteryZOT but it took a lot of time and work on my part. Since then I have not purchased anything from Zot.
I have saved all emails and MacZot screen shots in case the materials could be useful for a district attorney or attorney general.
The above post got deleted from MacZOT about 5 minutes after it was posted.- random44, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I also was treated unprofessionally by MacZot during my first (and last) purchase there. My story has been documented on my blog, but I write this here only to add my voice to the crowd. It does not appear to be an isolated incident that MacZot has acted in an unethical manner. In my case, I did receive a refund after a few days, but was also insulted by the email that came with it. Insulting your customers is never good practice, and I removed MacZot from my daily list shortly there-after (when every comment I made was also deleted from the blog).
- jorgeq, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I've been a faithful reader to Garrett's blog for the past 3 years and when I came across the post concerning this whole "debacle", my initial was, "Why would he ever want to divulge business information out to the public like that" but then I later understood where he was coming from when he did. He felt obliged to do so because of the customers he had acquired through xPad, me being one of them.
I purchased a license and I fell in love with the sweet App and so I was a bit disappointed when I found out that you were no longer behind it. As weird as it may sound, thanks for that lengthy explanation concerning the matter because I'm sure we all wanted to know what occurred behind-the-scenes. Keep up the great work Garrett! - moronpatrol, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1I would just like to say....
i dont even know wtf maczot is
if i cant discern it in 2 seconds ...i got better crap to do.
anyways sounds like contract is legis but probably someone has some ethics issues
i suggest....
A DUEL, wild wild west shoot out - hellotyler, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Brian is not a moral or good person. He is a lowdown sleezeball. Period.
Yes, he is 'legally' in the right. But that doesn't change that from what I can see he is an underhanded individual. - theonedigg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2MacZot is DEAD! Long Live Any Other Site not equal to MacZOT!!
Avoid MacZot like the Plague...Would be nice if MacZot ceased to exists 3 Months from now...- ToeCheese, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Dude he is scummy enough to just rename the site. Remember the Camera Digg issue from a year ago? They had multiple sites. He would even try a different name with the developers. It's easy when most of this occurs via email.
- goodinuf, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Regarding renaming site
Brian Ball is listed as the registrant for MacZot.com. Unless he uses a different registrant his reputation may follow him.
- AlfaWolph, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I don't feel sorry for this guy at all. He didn't have a lawyer look over the contract- something you should _always_ do in business. And no, I don't buy for a second he was just "trying to be fair" by leaving that part out. I think he just plain didn't think about it. In the end, he bought himself some sense though and he should leave it at that.
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E-Commerce
Development of web shops | Development of financial software | Development of e-paymet systems
E-Commerce
Development of web shops | Development of financial software | Development of e-paymet systems
http://www.senpai-it.com/tech.php#ecommerce
Software Development
Business analysis and CRM systems | Bug fixing and application testing | Development of network protocols
http://www.senpai-it.com/tech.php#software
Design & Artwork
Corporate design, print production | Application interfaces design | All kinds of computer graphics
Design & Artwork
Corporate design, print production | Application interfaces design | All kinds of computer graphics
http://www.senpai-it.com/tech.php#design
Web Development
Development of web sites and portals | Flash animation and Action Scripting | Development of web services
http://www.senpai-it.com/tech.php#web
Finding misplaced or hidden information from websites
http://www.senpai-it.com/articles.php?id=1
Siarhei Shandrokha (CTO, Senpai IT Solutions)
siarhei@senpai-it.com
___________________________________________________________
http://www.airsole.net
elevator shoes
Turn any shoes into height increase elevator shoes. - hunkpr, on 12/22/2007, -1/+0Contemporary Chinese Wedding Invitation
Custom Wedding Invitations
Wedding Invitation Design
Free Wedding Invitation
Personalized and Unique Wedding Invitations
http://www.983wedding.com
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http://www.diet-article.com
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Job Resume - http://www.sristysaviation.com/resume.html - cannyinfotech, on 05/05/2008, -0/+0PlatingNum Park are a UK-based Oracle consultancy with clients ranging from FTSE100 multinationals to small SME's. We are Specialists in 10g RAC, Tuning, Installation, rman Backup & Recovery . We strive to increase your performance we well as productivity while reducing client costs. We can provide consultants to help with any technical project and environment support requirements including Oracle database, RAC, Oracle E Businesss suite. Please visit us at http://www.oracleconsultancy.net for your oracle support needs.
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