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With Vista Release in Sight, Key Windows Executive Exits

seattlepi.nwsource.com — A Microsoft Corp. executive who led Windows Vista's development is leaving for Amazon.com, with the clock ticking down to the scheduled release of the delayed operating system. Brian Valentine, a Microsoft veteran known for rallying the troops to finish big projects, is due to start work at Amazon as a senior vice president in mid-September.

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  • crammaz, on 10/12/2007, -21/+77Rats from sinking ship....???

    Sorry someone had to say it :P
    • thespace, on 10/12/2007, -45/+7LOL!! I was totally waiting for someone to make a comment like that!!
    • berwiki, on 10/12/2007, -9/+64Vista is probably going to be sooo awesome that he didn't want all that fame and fortune. Girls throwing their panties at him during family vacations...it can get ugly.
    • Xalorous, on 10/12/2007, -11/+16"Brian Valentine, a Microsoft veteran known for rallying the troops to finish big projects, is due to start work at Amazon as a senior vice president in mid-September. The Seattle-based Internet retailer declined to give details of Valentine's new role."

      Umm, based on this statement, it sounds like this guy is a "closer". He probably moves around from company to company helping them finish their projects.
    • JimV, on 10/12/2007, -25/+5Maybe he just decided that he didn't want to be part of the evil empire anymore.

      Or maybe Amazon just offered him a better job with better pay? Or both?

      - - - -
      Help baby Hannah!
      http://digg.com/tech_deals/Help_Baby_Hannah_Win_an_Awesome_Computer
    • JeffH, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15He was most likely just offered a better job and better pay, as there's no indication Vista won't secure the same amount of marketshare as....well, every Windows OS before it.
    • kevin.gc, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@Xalorous
      (quote)
      Brian Valentine
      (Former) Senior Vice President, Windows Core Operating System Division

      Brian Valentine left Microsoft in September 2006.

      Valentine was senior vice president of Microsoft's Windows Core Operating System Division (COSD), responsible for development of the Windows operating system and driving engineering excellence within the Windows operating system and across platforms.

      Valentine joined Microsoft in 1987 as an engineering manager in the LAN Manager group and then spent most of the next 12 years working on Microsoft Mail and Microsoft Exchange Server, eventually managing the Exchange and BackOffice family product units. He was put in charge of Windows in December 1998.

      Before joining Microsoft, Valentine was a software engineer at Intel Corp. He holds a bachelor's degree in computer science from Eastern Washington University.
    • doodlebumm, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Given the length of time spent at MS and the position he held, he's a multi-millionaire (stock options from '87... if only I were so lucky). There is no reason to believe that he needs more money. Better job is possible, but this type of guy gets off with people knowing he "saved the ship." More power is also possible, but I'm sure he had plenty at MS. Where is he going to go up to at Amazon?

      Maybe he isn't actually getting the job done this time, so he was told to start looking for a new job, and he just found it.
    • ilyag, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5He probably quit his job for the same reason that most rich people quit their jobs: he got bored, being at the same company and in the same office for over a decade, and wanted to do something NEW and DIFFERENT. That, and the stress of working on such a big and important project (staying at the office late at night, etc) probably got to him, making him think, "You know what? I'm tired and worn out, and I want to do something new now."

      That seems a bit more reasonable than most of the theories people are throwing out here.
    • amasiancrasian, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1Now you just Samuel L. Jackson to say Rats on a Ship.
    • Waterrat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1 I was thinking the same thing...
      But maybe some restructuring is just what Microsoft needs.
    • OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2"Rats from sinking ship....???

      Sorry someone had to say it :P"

      I post a statement like that and it gets Dugg down, you post it and it gets 53 Diggs. Sometimes Digg's fickle audience makes no sense whatsoever.

      I've been saying that MS is in trouble for over a year now, ever since seeing the first beta of Vista. With XP, I thought it would get better. It didn't. It may have gotten WORSE. Vista is looking pretty damn bad so far. Ugly GUI, another patch-job rather than a complete rewrite, and added bloat and complexity. I looked forward to XP (over Win98), it was a minor improvement, but Vista is making me cringe.

      MS is the Bush Administration of the tech industry. They're an untrustworthy corporation that no one wants to do business with or entrust their data to.
  • applepro, on 10/12/2007, -8/+18Let's face it... when people leave it shows that there was some dis-satisfaction at ye ol' workplace.
    • halleyscomet, on 10/12/2007, -4/+37Or he got a better offer from Amazon...
    • cmiller1, on 10/12/2007, -3/+21Or, more likely than either individual answer, both!
    • theone3, on 10/12/2007, -7/+4Just like any long-fought battle, there is no victory in winning.
    • nightsweat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Which could be anything from doing a bad job to just being bored after 18 years. Sometimes you just want a different lion to tame.
    • nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2If he was completely satisfied he probably would have not talked to Amazon, but let's be honest who's completely satisfied with their job? I mean _really_ satisfied.
  • Arkonnan, on 10/12/2007, -11/+5I thought it was pretty much a given that any meaningful advancement at Microsoft could only be attained by *leaving* the organization.
    • skyshock21, on 10/12/2007, -0/+23This is true of MANY workplaces. Not just MS.
  • epitaphic, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8Compare:
    "That coincided with the completion of a near-final test version of Windows Vista"
    with:
    "You have virtually pre-won $1,000,000 guaranteed!!!!!!111"
  • akiraeternal, on 10/12/2007, -10/+22People come, people go. A replacement will come along in no time.

    I find peoples references to Microsoft being a sinking ship to be hilarious. They should do their research first. Microsoft is far from failing.

    Bring on the flaming, but its true.
    • PsychoticCarp, on 10/12/2007, -9/+2I wont, Im thinking he just didnt want to be "reassigned"
    • weareglass, on 10/12/2007, -6/+19MS may not be a sinking ship, but Vista certainly has the appearance of one. Two 15+ year veterans pushed out of the company because of it, truly extraordinary delays, shareholder anxiety, and it isn't even out the door yet. They better hope it is clean as a whistle or it's gonna be a long wait until Longerhorn...
    • altexa, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5^^ or a clean "whistler"?
    • cquilliam, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1@weareglass
      I thought Longhorn was the code name for Vista? Isn't Blackcomb the code name for the next release? And isn't that a server os? I could be wrong...
    • Jugalator, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Blackcomb was to be the next one but is now referred to as "Vienna", which is supposedly a major shift in design (wow, when have we heard that before..) and will not be server-only.

      Longhorn was the code name for Vista, but some refer to Longhorn as a different concept with more grand goals than Vista ended up having. In mid-development of Vista (build 5000), they switched code base from XP SP2 to Server 2003 and had to restart a lot of work, and that's when these people say the Longhorn idea died and Vista was born.
    • numptydumpty, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7@cguilliam

      dude, he spelt it 'LongERhorn'... it was a joke.
    • leobaby, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2longhorn was probably confused with vista at one point....

      here....
      http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver/longhorn/default.mspx
  • mdesjardins, on 10/12/2007, -0/+28I've noticed this phenomenon at various jobs I've had - whenever a big project is finished, people leave. A more cynical person would probably think that the folks getting out are leaving before the proverbial sh*t hits the fan. I think it's more subtle than that. I think it comes from a let-down after you complete a monumental task. I think when you pour your heart and soul into a project for several months or years, and finally see it finished, you expect to feel a sort of completeness or elation, and that never happens. Occasionally, other people end up promoted, and you stay where you are. This anticlimactic end of a project causes people to decide to leave for greener pastures. Maybe that's just the case here (or maybe this little observation of mine isn't really applicable to executive mucky-mucks and I'm just blowing hot air).
    • fourty_two, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Agreed. Some people are project people. Some people maintain what was built.
  • lithuin, on 10/12/2007, -9/+3I would possibly be concerned if this were a lead programmer, but this guy is just a glorified a$$-slapper. He's upset he couldn't get Vista out the door sooner. Big whoop.
  • norick, on 10/12/2007, -12/+14No matter that people are leaving Microsoft, no matter how good or bad vista will be, Microsoft will still sell millions of copy of his next OS, Microsoft will still be dominant in the OS market.

    It's sad, but it's true.
    • EvilTesdall, on 10/12/2007, -25/+7no, its sad people still use macs...
    • lithuin, on 10/12/2007, -3/+21OK, I'm going to get Dugg down for even thinking this, but why do people feel the uncontrollable urge to take pot shots at Microsoft (edit: and Mac, thanks Evil). It's not sad but true. It's just true. Use whatever OS you want (I'm all for alternative OSs), but Windows lets my mom (and myself) do what she needs to on the computer, so I like it. I'd say the same thing about OSX and any other OS that I could say the same of.

      The sad part is, up until that last comment, you had a valid (to me) post.
    • EvilTesdall, on 10/12/2007, -19/+3opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one and they all smell.
    • cmiller1, on 10/12/2007, -14/+4EvilTesdall: Don't you do anything else other than troll Digg all day trying to make baseless attacks against Macs? What, did a Mac user beat you as a child? Were you made fun of for having to fiddle with trumpet winsock for hours while us Mac users were just hitting connect in PPP (or MacPPP) and were done with it? Why don't you crawl into a hole and die, allowing your body to reenter the nitrogen cycle by letting microorganisms feast on it would be a much more helpful use for your putrid body than sitting around all day having temper tantrums because, well, I don't know, I really don't understand why you would defend Windows unless you're sick in the head or have only used Windows and are rather self-delusional.
      Oh, and both your opinions and your ***** are much smellier than mine, ever think of taking a shower?
    • ZeroG52, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9@Cmiller1...

      Wow, that wasn't biased in the least bit! I'm glad to see someone here with an open mind.
    • EvilTesdall, on 10/12/2007, -11/+1@cmiller1
      your comment fell on deaf ears.

      why do you hate me so? did a Windows user beat you up as a kid.

      lol...
    • shakin, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6@lithuin

      Microsoft's dominance is sad because they can literally put out a ***** product and it won't hurt their market share. Look at Windows Me. In a competitive market you must continually improve your product, but Microsoft hasn't had to do this for desktop users. Nearly all their improvements since NT 4 were on the server and admin tools because there is a lot of competition there. If MS had a 50% desktop market share you can bet they'd have got Vista out sooner and it would offer a lot more than it does now.
    • EvilTesdall, on 10/12/2007, -10/+1haha microsoft doesn't have a 50% desktop sahre, they have a 95% desktop share.
    • cmiller1, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3@ZeroG52 - He had it coming to him.
      @EvilTesdall - Couldn't you at least come up with your own comeback instead of using mine? God, if your knowledge of computers is anywhere near as strong as your wit and spelling ability it doesn't surprise me you use Windows.
    • lithuin, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4@shakin
      I don't even know where to start...
      Windows ME is the single, quantifiably bad product MS has released from Windows 95 on. All the other iterations of Windows have been excellant products. There is room for improvement, but that can be said for every OS.
      And do you seriously believe that nearly all their improvements since NT 4 were on server and admin tools? DirectX has nothing to do with system administration, but is one of the most significant steps in hardware/software abstraction and unification in the past 10 years. I remember laughing when Win95 was pitched as the ultimate gaming platform, but they weren't far off the mark.
      Think before you type.
    • EvilTesdall, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1@cmiller1

      Sigh...

      just because i have better things to do then check my spelling on Digg, apparently makes me a stupid windows users. I have used dos win 95 win 98 98SE Me 2000 xp Redhat mandrake ubuntu OS/2 ...and not to mention a couple mac operation systems and linux/windows servers. Have two AS degrees one in information networking and network engineering, and over 8 years exp in the field plus, have my certs for many different things.

      But what do you care...and i don't expect you to care and nor do i care if i get dugg down for voicing my opinion in a place designate to ....**gasp** voice my opinion.

      apparently i don't know anything!...well so says cmiller1
    • OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1"Use whatever OS you want"

      Do you have a job? For the majority of employees, there is no choice but Windows. It's Outlook, Office, Explorer or nothing. Many office won't even let employees use Firefox!

      There is also the MSCE IT mafia. All they know is Windows, they don't want to deal with OS X and Linux, even if in some cases they may be better alternatives for a particular application, or simply if an employee wants to use them.
  • bluephoenix, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Microsoft is pretty far away from becoming a sinking ship. I love reading these stories, but seriously can we get a windows category on digg? That will keep fanboys all around from leaking in too much. If we can have a celebrity category I see no reason why there shouldn't be a windows one.
    • weareglass, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2It'd still be in Tech, how would that change any trolling patterns?
    • zacmccormick, on 10/12/2007, -5/+15I completely agree. I can't believe there isn't a Windows category, but there's a linux and mac one (which total to < 3% market share?). It's blarringly obvious that digg is made up of elitists. If they really cared about their users they would have had a Windows category on day 1. It would make more sense to only have a Windows category, rather than vice versa. But then where would all of the fanboys post their daily meaningless OSX news? NO I don't hate OSX, but the posts on this story make it obvious that people just hate on MS for absolutely _NO_ reason.

      "Rats from sinking ship"

      "when people leave it shows that there was some dis-satisfaction at ye ol' workplace"

      "I thought it was pretty much a given that any meaningful advancement at Microsoft could only be attained by *leaving* the organization"

      "Microsoft will still be dominant in the OS market. It's sad, but it's true."

      Are you guys ***** 10 years old? What's sad but true is that you guys have nothing better to do than post unfounded comments that are basically unrelated to the original story just because the product you chose to use has no user base. The guy left the company, so what? Microsoft attracts some of the brightest people on the planet to come work for them, I'm sure they will manage.
    • norick, on 10/12/2007, -8/+6For zacmccormick.

      Why do I hate Microsoft?

      - Windows OS are not good, with a lot of security problems
      - because they are still believing in Internet Explorer, this leads to a LOT of problems in the securisation of there OS, and for the web
      - because they don't upgrade there OS and IE well and enough (IE 6, in 2006, no tabs, great)
      - because they don't have any respect for the user
      - because my mother still have problems with adware/malware no matter what I told her
      - because my mother has now a mac, and I don't her screaming on the phone anymore

      Windows XP was good when it first launches, but now it sucks so much. I have to reinstall it every 6 months.

      Don't you see it why people hate Microsoft? Have you ever tried OS X for telling that "people just hate on MS for absolutely _NO_ reason."?
    • zacmccormick, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8@norick

      I don't want to turn this into an OS battle, I don't care that you prefer OSX. Yes, I've used OSX, and no, I don't think it's the panacea that you seem to think it is. Your arguments are decent, but putting opinions into a bulletted list doesn't make them facts, they are still opinions.

      "Security problems" blah blah blahbitty blah blah everyone has heard this, I'll give you this one *I guess* though I don't agree with it whole-heartedly. I definitely don't want to provoke a security debate with you because I can already tell you lack the technical knonwledge to even know what you are talking about.

      The internet explorer one... Do you honestly think they are going to abandon IE? haha. It's a good product, with a few minor problems that they are fixing. "Securisation" isn't a word, so I doubt IE or Windows has problems with that.

      I agree they don't upgrade IE enough, but that's an entirely different beast, and worthy of a entire article explaining how that problem came to be.

      No respect for the user... that's just an opinion, and a pretty ridiculous one at that. Apple has respect for the user? How so? By breaking application compatibility on every single major version increment? Yeah they definitely care about the user!!

      So because your mother (who probably doesn't know a damn thing about operating a computer) likes her new mac, I should switch too? bitch please, yet another unfounded opinion put into a bulletted list to appear factual.


      I don't see a reason to hate MS, their actions over the last few years towards developers have been AWESOME. I'm sorry that you feel the need to hate, but I urge you to think of some good things about MACs, rather than some bad things about Windows. All you have done is added mindless off-topic banter about your hatred for MS.



    • ucg1, on 10/12/2007, -8/+4@zacmccormick

      This is a *tech* web site. Lets face it, people really into computer tech don't really like Windows, especially those that are knowledgeable. Yes, this is elitist if you want to call it that. People who know a lot about and have a lot of experience with computers (making them "elite") generally don't like Windows because they've experienced more powerful operating systems.

      This is why sites like Slashdot and Digg cater to the Linux/Mac/UNIX crowd. Because that IS what their users are. Yes, Linux/Mac have a small relative market share. But you think that Digg itself doesn't have a small market share? Compare something like msn.com to digg.com to get a proper analogy. msn.com may have a larger market share, but does that really make it more relavent than digg.com?

      As for hating on Microsoft. I don't see why its so hard to understand why someone would hate a company that abuses their monopoly the way Microsoft does and has ***** software on top of it (I've experienced all Windows versions since 3.0, so I'm especially bitter). As for being good to their developers, from what I have seen, Microsoft has always been good to developers. That is one of the reasons they killed OS/2. That is not the problem (though I'm not a huge fan of their dev tools even though I've used them plenty).

      The problem is that they aren't good to their end users. They are not delivering good quality software to their users and they are using their virtual monopoly to ram software down their throats. People are using a Internet Explorer because it was rammed down their throats when they bought a Windows PC. IE is damaging the internet (combination of security problems and lack of standards compliance) and causing hell for web developers. Microsoft doesn't play well with and is disruptive to the rest of the tech industry. How can you not understand why people don't hate them for this?
    • ryanlive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Microsoft will always be a player, but I find it difficult to believe that they will forever hold the monopoly and market share that they now enjoy. History often repeats itself and historically IBM, Novell, and Apple are great examples of big companies that once dominated the market but now have more modest market share and power.

      Interestingly, while Microsoft seems to be stagnant or stumbling Apple and Novell are making progress and may be on the rebound. I predict that Microsoft will only hold 50% of the market share ten years from now.
    • zacmccormick, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2@ucg1

      You started off ok, then you fell off and started hating... I know digg has more linux users than msn, that's obvious from the articles posted on it. But intentionally leaving out a Windows category isn't "catering" to their users, I'm sorry. I think elites hatred of MS has more to do with the type of personality that technical people tend to have about the economics of it, and they see MS as an evil machine, when in fact Microsoft is made up of hackers just like the linux community. The only difference is Microsoft hackers want a paycheck, and I certainly find that admirable.

      What is a "virtual monopoly"? Is that one that only exists in the mind of haters?

      "The problem is that they aren't good to their end users"
      haha!!! What the hell are you talking about? If they didn't care about end users, IE would have all of the parts of the css3 draft implemented and live in ie7, and break compatiblity on a whim (see Apple OSX). I think you are massively overstating the facts here. Backwards compatibility, probably the single most important "we care about our users" feature any OS vendor can provide, has been at the forefront of Windows success. Now how could you possibly say with conviction that MS doens't care about its end users? because you don't like the fact that they are successful? ding ding ding!


      "Microsoft doesn't play well with and is disruptive to the rest of the tech industry"

      Microsoft invented most of the tech industry. Microsoft has entire committees and departments dedicated to IHV and ISV support and spends millions "playing fair" with 3rd parties and the rest of the tech industry. What are you basing this on? Windows not supporting ext3 or something crazy that you know damn well would never in a million years be in the best interest of the company, and consequently the users?

      The fact that you write off Microsoft software as "*****" makes me lose some respect for your opinion. How could you discredit the work of Microsoft hackers like that? They have some of the most brilliant people working for them. You definitely are right about some of that stuff, but lets get real, software like Microsoft Office and Exchange are head and shoulders above anything else offered by the rest of the tech industry, both on a technical and a practical level.

      I don't love the fact that Microsoft is basically the one-and-only in the industry, but I'm not going to discredit their work because of that. I would love to see another entity make a killing, but it's going to take more than a good piece of code to do that now.
    • ucg1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@zacmccormick

      "Microsoft is made up of hackers just like the linux community. The only difference is Microsoft hackers want a paycheck, and I certainly find that admirable."

      Apple (and Sun I might add) hackers want a paycheck, too. But you don't see me hating on them.

      "What is a "virtual monopoly"? Is that one that only exists in the mind of haters?"

      Nevermind the terminology I used. Microsoft is a *convicted* monopolist.

      "Now how could you possibly say with conviction that MS doens't care about its end users?"

      I didn't say "cares" for its end users, I said "they are not good to their users". But in any case, they only care about the money that comes from end users, they are a corporation after all (not a human being), and a corporation's goal is to maximize profit for its shareholders, not do good for its users.

      "you don't like the fact that they are successful?"

      I don't like the fact that Windows machines are ubiquitous, yes.

      "Microsoft invented most of the tech industry."
      "The fact that you write off Microsoft software as "*****" makes me lose some respect for your opinion"

      These statements make me think you haven't been into computers very long. Were you around for MS-DOS 2-6, Windows 3.0, 3.11, 95, 98? Did you use commercial UNIXes in the early 90's (or earlier) and see the birth of Linux and FreeBSD? Did you use Novell Netware? Did you use OS/2? If you were around back then and actually had a varied computing experience (not just MS products), you would've seen a completely abysmal product that Windows was take over when it was not technically the best. Fast forward to the present, and you'll see "backwards compatibility" has kept the ugly beast that is Windows still alive.

      My dislike for Microsoft had nothing to do with finances (like you are trying to imply in your first paragraph), but purely due to the fact that such a technically inferior product(s) was supplanting products that were technical sound. I didn't even really understand open source or the GPL when I started using Linux and BSD on my home machines, I was purely into it for technical reasons. I knew I liked UNIX, and I knew Microsoft was putting out crap and people were buying it. Microsoft won the business game, but lost on the technical side of things. So, yes, finances do play into it, in the fact that its hard for anyone else to compete with them, but my basic gripe is that Microsoft's puts out a number of ***** products and they are everywhere.

      I should say that I don't think Microsoft has a bunch of dumbass developers working for them (though I'm sure there are some). But I do think that their corporate culture and management prevent them from producing quality products (with a maybe a few exceptions).
    • zacmccormick, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@ucg1

      "Apple (and Sun I might add) hackers want a paycheck, too. But you don't see me hating on them"

      Fair enough...


      "I didn't say "cares" for its end users, I said "they are not good to their users"."

      These are nearly one and the same for the sake of my argument, "caring" implies taking action to better the user experience. Whether or not the result is "good" by your standards or mine is highly subjective depending on your needs, I for one am pretty pleased with their products. I don't think you can speak for 700 million users on this issue.

      I have been around computers for a while, though I never used older versions of unix that you mentioned. My point was that Microsoft has made gigantic contributions to the tech industry. Do you honestly think MS has had an overall negative contribution to the tech industry? That is WAY far fetched.


      "... but purely due to the fact that such a technically inferior product(s) was supplanting products that were technical sound"

      This happens in every single industry, EVERY SINGLE ONE. It's not always about what's the most technically sound, it's about who has the right product or service at the right time when someone needs it. It's business. Although I don't really know which products you are referring to that have technically superior alternatives (I can think of a few but none of them are their core products). Maybe in 1990 that might have made sense...


      "My dislike for Microsoft had nothing to do with finances"

      Well you mentioned monopoly, how does that not have "nothing" to do with finances?


      "Microsoft won the business game, but lost on the technical side of things"

      Again we are living in 1990 here. You hate MS in 2006 because they had bad technology in 1990.


      "but my basic gripe is that Microsoft's puts out a number of ***** products and they are everywhere"

      I do agree with that, though we probably don't agree with which products those are :)
    • ucg1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1MS has one objective: to deliver a product which meets the customers requirements as quickly as possible. Quality of the product is not part of that objective. That's evident in many of their products including their flagship product -- Windows.

      The reason I talk about MS and Windows in the 90's is because some things haven't changed. A lot of bad design decisions remain as part of the Windows we have today. This may be done in the name of backwards compatibility, but that doesn't change anything, the problems still remain.

      As for the monopoly thing, its not the finance of it, it's the fact that they have such a huge amount of control over the industry. They are so huge that its easy for them to eliminate competition, even when the competition has a better product (that is why I think overall MS has stifled innovation in the tech industry by crushing/buying out competitors and backstabbing their partners). If you want to consider that finances, then I take what I said back, maybe it does have to do with finances, but more the end result of those finances than the money itself.

      You may say this happens in every industry and its just business, and that may be true, there are plenty of business reasons why MS's products have succeeded while better products have failed. But its a sad state compared to what the industry could have been had their remained actual competition in the desktop market and other areas where currently Microsoft dominates.

      You may not agree with me, but maybe you might be able to understand why people dislike Microsoft? Maybe people like me are too emotionally invested in computers, and we've seen something we love get ruined by a giant corporation taking it over and ***** all over it in the name of profit. Maybe that happens all the time with other things, but it shouldn't be too hard to understand.

      It'll be interesting to see what happens in the next few decades. It will be severely depressing if nothing changes and Windows is still around in essentially its same form (with all the crappy design decisions remaining intact) and still dominant.
  • mobilehavoc, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5In most companies the easiest way to move up is actually (ironically) to leave and then come back.
  • n0yd, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Has this guy told Balmer yet? I'm sure the chairs will be flying over this one.
    • OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Carpenters, carpenters, carpenters...
  • weprin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6I hope that Vista is a "good" product. I really do want it to work well, because I have a lot invested in Microsoft, as far as my personal knowledge base goes (I am a .NET programmer).

    I think I could be convinced to switch to another OS (not sure which yet) if and only if I can continue to develop .NET applications, run SQL Server 2005 and play Direct3D games such as WoW (which I believe does also support OpenGL now that I think about it) in my off time w/ it.
    • zacmccormick, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Yeah, .NET is an awesome development platform. I think if Apple or a Linux variant ever gained enough market share, it would put a LOT of pressure on Microsoft to bring .NET to other native platforms, simply because they want their applications to have maximum penetration. As of right now, the cost/benefit of bringing .NET to another OS just doesn't lean towards it, because Windows still is over 90%, and even higher in the corporate sector.

      Apple might just have a chance, but they are definitely going to have to tone down their campaign a little bit to attack the corporate market, businesses aren't going to pay extra for shiny eye candy and childish advertisements. They need to come out with some more conservative products (and by that I don't mean that their computers look bad, but you can't deny that some of the cost of a mac goes into all of the engineering of their branding and provides zero substantive gain) Their new Xservers are a perfect example, those things look like a million bucks, but they are going to end up sitting in some room and never even looked at. But man those things are sexy ;)

      Who knows though, virtualization might change everything, and make the underlying OS less important, only time will tell...
    • ucg1, on 10/12/2007, -7/+1".Net programmer".. Sucks for you that you're pretty much forced to use Windows to do your work and have pigeonholed yourself as a ".Net programmer". Though I've done my fair share of .Net dev, and will continue to do more while I'm at my current job (though .Net is only like 15% of my dev work), I do not have all my eggs in one basket, and if I never have to use .Net again I would be happy. If I never have to use the huge turd that is Visual Studio .Net I would be a much happier developer.

      C# isn't bad, but MS dev tools are crap designed for idiots.
    • concertina, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5"I think if Apple or a Linux variant ever gained enough market share, it would put a LOT of pressure on Microsoft to bring .NET to other native platforms, simply because they want their applications to have maximum penetration."

      Perfectly good ports of .NET already exist for alternative operating systems: Mono, dotGnu, etc. No need for microsoft to stick their hands in the pie and ruin it. :) I use Mono-based apps all the time; granted, I haven't seen many commercial apps ported at this stage, but there's no reason we couldn't see that happen in the future.

      More info here:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_%28software%29

      I could be mistaken, but I think the reason we don't see a .NET version of office and other heavily tied-in applications in linux is that
      a) while Mono is good, and very usable, it's not to 100% compatibility yet
      b) patents cover parts of .NET that make that 100% compatibility not likely in the near future given community wariness about Microsoft's past behavior

      If Microsoft really wants to see maximum penetration of its applications, all it would have to do is sign a contract with Novell certifying that they had a royalty-free license to do what they want with the (Novell-developed) windows compatibility layer in Mono that does not restrict distribution or modification and that applies to anyone downstream of Novell, and compatibility would happen. That they haven't done so is telling. Microsoft has no interest in seeing its apps succeed on other platforms unless they have total control over everything below.
    • zacmccormick, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@concertina

      We all know about Mono, that wasn't the point of my post. When I said bring .NET to other platforms I was implying a supported CLI implementation from Microsoft. Microsoft would never support mono, at least not in its current state. It would be somewhat akin to Microsoft all the sudden supporting Wine also, not going to happen. I said Microsoft might bring it to other platforms to get maximum penetration (with the pretense that another vendor gained more than 2% desktop share). The fact is, there really isn't anything to gain for MS right now in supporting alternative platforms. It would be a huge investment with a nonexistent ROI.

      "Microsoft has no interest in seeing its apps succeed on other platforms unless they have total control over everything below."

      Yep, you are exactly right, because of this fact:
      Linux has users, Microsoft/Windows has customers.

      It's all about accountability, and Microsoft isn't about to take on responsibility for 10 million lines of code written by someone else, and developed outside of their very specific development cycle.
    • OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"I hope that Vista is a "good" product. I really do want it to work well, because I have a lot invested in Microsoft, as far as my personal knowledge base goes (I am a .NET programmer)."

      Yes, I want Vista to be a good product as well. I've been using Windows for years, and I don't have much choice except to continue using it and deal with clients that use it. I'm not a Linux or Apple fanboy in any way, I just don't want MS to inflict another half-assed product on the world again. I don't want that because I'll have to use it!

      My only other complaint about MS is their unfair business practices which stifle innovation. Other than that, I don't give a damn what MS does or how much $$$ they make.
  • dioscaido, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Well, he said he wouldn't leave until Vista was ready to go out the door... FWIW... Sad to see him go. But I can imagine after 12 years of doing the same stressful ***** takes its toll. That plus the fact that he's already a billionaire, so he doesn't really need to do anything, if he doesn't want to.
  • artcancro, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0Ah, the venerable old Brian Valentine. This is the same guy who, when he found out that IBM and Linux were beating Microsoft at winning new server accounts, wanted his sales force to tattoo his customers' inventories on their asses. He seems like a Ballmer disciple, so it's odd to see him go.
  • JamieFameFlame, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1@zacmccormick

    "you can't deny that some of the cost of a mac goes into all of the engineering of their branding and provides zero substantive gain"
    - No, being safe from malware/spyware/adware/hackers sure isn't worth paying for.

    "Their new Xservers are a perfect example..."
    - Yeah, and that's why NASA, the US Navy, Virginia Tech and transaction operator xTech are using them. Because they look good, sure...

    • colemanm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Hmm... looks like a bunch of big-spending, government-funded institutions to me... I worked for the University of Florida for a long time and saw into the heart of the spending beast. Organizations like that waste GOBS of money on ***** that will never be of value. Not exactly what Zac was talking about (private sector businesses interested in actual profit).
  • Xeworlebi, on 07/25/2008, -3/+1Soon the monkey-boy will be alone at MS
  • EvilTesdall, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0correct me if im wrong, (which has been knowen to happen from time to time) but does Microsoft own 56% of Mac?
    • maggiesay, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0The $150 million in Apple stock Microsoft bought in 1997 was sold years ago.

      In 2003, Microsoft bought 150,000 non-voting shares of Apple stock. This would account for approximately 0.04% ownership if they were voting shares, which they are not.
  • leobaby, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2So how do I convince my employer to upgrade to vista. I just don't see the selling points.
    • Soulhuntre, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3You could, you know, trying learning anything at all about it.

      Or you could just get your tech info from Digg and Slashdot (basically the same thing as far as anti-MS bias goes) and remain fairly ignorant on the topic.
    • OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1"So how do I convince my employer to upgrade to vista. I just don't see the selling points."

      Does your employer need the new search capability?
      3D games much of a selling point?
      Allegedly enhanced security?

      No, it really isn't very attractive to a corporate customer. Keep in mind how much of their software they'll have to upgrade along with Vista, and probably some of their hardware.

      MS needs to make a corporate version without all the bloated stuff corporate customers don't want. I think all they want is security, stability, and performance, not bundled MS apps? Yes, I know, integration with MS servers, services as well, but XP already handles that well enough.
  • ucg1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1[wrong reply]
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